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Milhouse, many many many people davka use a learned baal halacha rov that know choshem=n mishpat well, that HE should do the mechiras chometz because of the complexities of a goy making a kinyan on metaltalin and karka (renting places of chometz). They davka go to a posek and dayan. They expect HIM to be at the mechira and not delegate the mechira to some clerk.
Indeed, the “pulpit rabbis” that give great drashos but know little of choshen mishpat, they NEED to get help from real rabbonim to make a proper mechira – and therefore delegate the real rabbonim such as those on Vaad or sitting on Bais Din.
I personally take care of the gashmiyus of my household, including the appointment of rov to sell the chometz. I choose a rov that I know is bokee in hilchos kinyanim especially for goyim.
How it works in “the real world” depends on which world – the world of aam haaratzim or the torah world that knows the issues. In the world of aam haaratzim, they appoint their “rabbi” who will later appoint a real rov. In the torah world, we go and appoint a proper rov and want HIM davka to do the mechira.
Is this really such a chiddush?
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Milhouse, your analysis is slightly off. It isn’t that the coffee does not exist!
Brochos 39a: Mei Silka K’silka-the water that beets were cooked in has the same berachah as the beets themselves. Basically, this means that when you cook vegetables in water, the water itself is infused with the essence of the vegetable.
This would apply too to coffee and tea and beer, EXCEPT –
Rosh explains that the water will only acquire a new Berachah-identity if, and only if, one is cooking the soup in order to eat the vegetables also. Therefore, by coffee and tea, when we do not eat the vegetables (pods / plants) the water/soup remains she’hakol.
Magen Avraham 202:22: Dried fruit such as apples, pears and plums that are poached in water you say “Borei Pri Ha’etz” on drinking their water (juice), and this is how I behave.
Even though coffee and tea are specifically grown and used exclusively as a beverage (which would cause a brocha of ha’etz or ha’adoma, in contrast to beer that barley is used not exclusively for drinking), the poskim state: brocha is she’hakol because the water is the main ingredient (see Shulchan Aruch Harav 202:12, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 53:3, Yechaveh Da’as 4:42)
loshon – “The question is what brocho is a minced fruit bar ? unrecognizable but on the package it says 100% apricot”
Potato starch is also 100% potatoes but the brocha is she’hakol
(as with any product of fruit/veggies that is unrecognizable e.g. Pringles made from dehydrated potato flour and reshaped into “chips”))
So loshon, pshat is like this: It is the derecch of using that fruit that matters. No one eats coffee pods. The way it is used is in coffee, which is a drink. Likewise, cocao peas are not eaten but used in chocolate. = where they are unrecognizable. Therefore it is shehakol on coffee and also on chocolate. Got it?
The kissing of one’s own hand implies that some keduaha was transferred by the hand shake. Like the gartel of a sefer Torah or the tallis that touches the klaf, and then the gartel or tallis is kissed becuae it retained the kedusha of the Sefer Torah.
CTLaw, you are assuming that in halacha we simply allow for שליח עושה שליח, in ALL circumstances, but that is not quite accurate.
Firstly, when one specifically appoints HIS rov, he expects his rov to be the selling agent.
Secondly, the agency is words and words cannot be transferred from one agent to another (therefore a shliach to make kiddushin cannot appoint another shaliach).
Regarding the “fraud”, the sale of chometz is not on SPRCIFIC chometz, but rather it is for “whatever chometz at location xyz belonging to abc” – if abc does not have any hometz,because it was already sold, then the goy isn’t buying anything. That isn’t a fraudulent transaction.
YO – there is a HUGE difference between a Mezuza or a Seder Torah with even a tzaddik. The treatment of a chefetz of kedusha is such that one cannot take the sefer Torah into a washroom c”v. But a tzaddik can go into the washroom. Why? Because the sefer torah is a chefetz shel kedusha (an OBJECT of joliness), while the tzaddik is kedusha (holiness) but not an object, rather a human being, and as such does not have the dinim of a chefetz shel kedusha. The sefer HaRambam cannot be taken into a bathroom, even though the Rambam himself went to the bathroom..
There is only ONE Rebbe – he is Rabi Yehudah HaNosi (compiler of Mishna).
Lasken – lav davka all was assered “at same time”, that is incorrect. I cited that gemarah above and explained it is an ” inclusive” gezeira that expands (even at a later time).
Loshon -” a fruit cannot change its brocho”, going down that road, you need to make a HaEtz on coffee. (comes from tree!)
Aviation k – since when is the rov a “Shomer” on the chometz? He is a “Shaliach” (an “agent”)! A shomer has possession of property. A shaliach that has no possession of the property is not a shomer. Therefore, the whole discussion you quoted is irrelevant.
I hear your logic and want to go down that road and see where it leads:
If a mezuza or sefer Torah is not brought into a bathroom, certainly a fellow yid shouldn’t be allowed to go into a bathroom…
CTLaw – “your hypothetical narishkeit”
Is there really no reasonable prospect of the Rov having a medical emergency on Erev Pessach (himself or is family)? Is there no risk of the Rov getting into an accident? Is it improbable that the Rov will need to deal with a crisis in his community (even a death)?
Why do you think it is a narishkeit that the Rov will be unable to sell the chometz before the zman?
In fact, on the balance of probability, I wouldn’t be surprised if, over the many generations of our history, such circumstance actually did occur!
Which is why I personally appoint more than one Rov to sell my chometz – just in case.
places – “My Family doesn’t use it for the seder since there is a shitta that says it is Shakol.”
Although you should respect your family minhag, that is not the ruling of other poskim.
Chazon Ish (Kilayim 13:16) conclusively proves from Gemara, Pesachim 35b that wheat that grew unattached to the ground (e.g. in a flowerpot) may be used for matzah at the Seder. Since many of the requirements for marror, including that it must be produce of the “land”, are derived from the halachos of matzah (see Gemara, Pesachim 39a) it follows that hydroponically-grown marror may surely be used at the Seder.
Hold on a minute!
Although most follow the opinion that it is she’hakol…There are TWO opinions!!
People, don’t make up answers based on partial knowledge! If you don’t know ALL about it, your little knowledge is dangerous!
These are the opinions –
She’hakol: Chayei Adam 51:17 & Nishmas Adam 152:1, Yechaveh Da’as 6:12, and Machzeh Eliyahu 25-29
Ha’Adoma: Chazon Ish, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Vezos HaBracha, Birur Halacha #24), Shevet HaLevi (1:205), Teshuvos V’Hanhagos 2:149, and Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky (Kovetz Halachos, Pesach 24:6)
NP, can you translate:
כי לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם ולא דרכיכם דרכי נאום ה – ישעיהו נה ט
Hashem’s “logic” is not like our logic, therefore our logic matters not.I asked the question of the lawyer CTLAWYER, both in contract law and lehavdil in din Torah, what liability rests on the rov if he neglects to sell the chometz?
Does he give a refund to the yid that appointed him?
Does he simply tell the yid, “haray shelcha l’fanecha” (you have your chometz – I am not concerned that it is now ossor)?
Can the rov be sued for damages?
Braech of contract?
I would think that the value of the service is reflected by the price paid.
lowerourtuition11210 – You think the mechira takes 10 minutes at SOF ZMAN BIUR?! No! Your fallacy is caused because you never attended a mechira! It is a process.
The process of the mechira, from greeting the goy, going through niceties and small talk, introducing others in attendance, explaining the mechira (even if the same goy was used last year – a refresher), doing the kinyonim (several), passing the shtoros etc. …all this can easily take around an hour.
What would you charge the Rov if he “forgot” to sell your chometz?!
Think about THAT!
Imagine he says, here is your $18 back, I simply couldn’t get the mechira done for you this year.
The achrayus!
While you are busy on erev pessach stuffing the last morsels of chometz in your mouth, the rov is busy selling the chometz with a goy.
What is the legal liability of the rov if he slept in and missed mechiras chometz??? Does he owe more than a refund???