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Coffee Addict – But you do say RAV Shimon Bar Yochai, RAV Yochanan Ben Zakai, Rav Yehuda HaNasi….
Firstly, it is “Rabon” Shimon bar Yochai and “Rabon” Yochonon ben Zakai and Rebbe or Rabi Yehuda Hanasi.
Second – why the distinctions between rav, rabi, rabon and shmo (no title)?
Education:
תוספתא עדיות פ”ג מ”ד (ובמפרשים שם): “גדול מרב – רבי, גדול מרבי – רבן, גדול מרבן – שמו”
Lowest honor was title “Rav”, next was “Rabi”, then “Rabon”, the highest honor was name alone withouit title.
Coffee Addict – But you do say RAV Shimon Bar Yochai, RAV Yochanan Ben Zakai, Rav Yehuda HaNasi….
Firstly, it is “Rabon” Shimon bar Yochai and “Rabon” Yochonon ben Zakai and Rebbe or Rabi Yehuda Hanasi.
Second – why the distinctions between rav, rabi, rabon and shmo (no title)?
Education:
תוספתא עדיות פ”ג מ”ד (ובמפרשים שם): “גדול מרב – רבי, גדול מרבי – רבן, גדול מרבן – שמו”
Lowest honor was title “Rav”, next was “Rabi”, then “Rabon”, the highest honor was name alone withouit title.
anon1mous Rachel stealing Lavan’s idols – like Moshe Rabbeinu stealing the Golden Calf that belonged to those that made it… Yaakov stealing the brachos…Brothers stealing Yossef and selling into slavery…we come from thieves!
Wolf – Is it your contention then that the widow of a talmid chochom cannot re-marry because her husband’s lips move in the kever, proving that he is, in fact, still alive?
Obviousley there is various applications and definitions of the word “alive” and “dead”. Reso’im are called “dead” even when alive (an oxymoron) but do Chazal mean to say that their wives are free to remarry without a get?! Chazal say that tzadikim are called alive even when dead (again an oxymoron) but are their wives free to remarry?!
There is an old discussion among Achronim if “Rabi” (kidding) Eliyohu Hanovee’s wife was free to remarry or does she remain married after his departure?! Reb Elchonon (Wasserman) has a shtikel on it too in Kovetz Shiurim
But to get to the point, the talmid chochom has a “din” of dead to free his wife to remarry, but he is not dead like a normal corpse, as he still has a connection with this world and interacts with it..
Coffee Addict – Oh I see so….אדונינו מורינו ורבינו degrades the Lubavitcher rebbe? Moran degrades Rav Shach? (Heck even the word rebbe and rav denigrates them) maybe you should start referring to them as shach or shneerson)
Context. Is. Everything.
If someone calls out Jew, it might be as an insult or it might be a proud declaration of who we are.
If said for respect, bu all means, if said to denigrate, there is a price to pay for being mevazeh talmidei chachomim.
All in context.
Wolf – No one calls Shmule or Dovid or Sholmo with a title.
Titles BELITTLE the greatness.
Am I belittling Dovid or Shlomo if I add the title “HaMelech?”
Am I belittling Shmuel if I add the title “HaNavi” or “HaChozeh?”
Am I belittling Moshe if I add the title “Rabbeinu?”Firstly, Godol MeRabbon Shmo is a chazal, so if there is a question, it is to CHazal.
But secondly, all the examples are NOT prefix but a suffix, you don’t ever say Rabi Moshe Rabbeinu, or Rabbon Dovid Hamelech or Rav Shmuel Hanovee.
(The prefix is a title while the suffix is the “job description”).Noach Ish Tzadik…b’dorosov.
Torah calls him a tzadik (and Torah does not lie). In the dor of Avrohom he might have been even greater or a nobody, but in his dor he was a tzaddik.(BTW Avrohom was not called by such a title!)
Is it “a huge disrespect to them” to compare Avrohom to Noach? You probably think so, but Torah does compare them!
Note: I used the word “compare” so do not twist, distrort or confuse yourself.
I still call Reb Moshe as such, because of his greatness as possek hador (for America and world)! Is that being hateful or disrespectful? C”V! Reb Moshe was so much greater than simply calling him “Rav Feinstein”!! He will always be Reb Moshe!
DY – The fact that you think you can compare Rabbeinu Hakadosh (and Yaakov Avinu, Eliyahu Hanavi, etc.) to the Lubavicher Rebbe is a huge disrespect to them.
Who are we to decide which godol is equal or less then other tzaddikim?! Yiftach b’doro k’shmuel b’doro. Is Yiftach compareable to Shmuel? We might think no, but Chazal tell us yes.
We need to conform our daas and way of thinking to Torah. Beginning with the elementary rule that Chazal are right, Torah is emes and we are primitive ignoramuses.
Godol me’Rabbon – shmo (it is greater to call by his name then with titles).
No ones calls Hillel Hazoken – Rabbon Hillel.
No one calls Shmule or Dovid or Sholmo with a title.
Mordechai is just a name without title.
Titles BELITTLE the greatness.,
Yet, we have a backwards mindset (daas baal habayis hepech Torah) and feel the need for titles: Moran, Moran V’Rabbonon, Harav Hagaon…so in our warped world, saying a name without a title is demeaning of the gadol.
Who are we to decide which godol is equal or less then other tzaddikim?! Yiftach b’doro k’shmuel b’doro. Is Yiftach compareable to Shmuel? We might think no, but Chazal tell us yes.
Wasn’t there also “death certificates” (or the equivalent acknowledgement and recording of death) and burials and graves ? There is a precedent, but admit we don’t fully “understand” it in our minds, because it defies our logic.
The students of Rabbe Yehudah proclaimed that whomever says that Rebbe dies will be pieced by a sword.
Were they in “denial” ? We are talking about students of Rabbe Yehuda, ta’anoim? Assume they went to his levaya – yet refused to allow anyone to say that he “died”!
DY would call them “nut jobs”!
Also apikursim!
LMT: institutional nuttiness.
You know better than the talmidim of Rebbe?!
NEBECH.
(Disclaimer: I am not Lubavitch or even Chassidic, but I accept all frum Jews and c”v to spread hate and mock others just because I don’t understand or follow their ways)
There is a source that all the Avos are merely “sleeping” in Chevron, and on certain occasions, they are “awakened”. (Even though they are under the ground and cannot breath etc)
Eliyohu has been alive and well past his 2000 birthday…does that mean he “clearly isn’t on this world”?
Daas Yochid – “However, the reason they think he’s alive is because they think he can’t die, because he’s divine. That’s apikorsus.”
Twisting!
1. he’s alive is because they think he can’t die – no, they think he didn’t die – why do you make up that he “can’t” die?! they believe factually he didn’t.
2. because he’s divine – no, because he didn’t die just as we are alive (and yet not divine) so too they believe he is alive (yet not divine) – why do you make uo that he is divine?! Anyone that is alive is divine?!
3. That’s apikorsus – no, believing that a person is alive is not one of the 13 Ikrim of Ani Amamin. We are not required to believe that everyone must die. To believe that a human can live forever is not kefira.
You simply make up things as you build an imaginary building in mid air, rent out rooms and then complain that the imaginary tenants aren’t paying you their rent on time – ganovim!
DY – Rav Shach shlita If a litvak would actually call him that, he’d be considered insane.”
And you agree that any Litvak that says on Rav Shach שפתיו דובבות בקבר would also be considered insane.
Rebbe Yehudah Hanosi “died” the “normal way”, yet returned to make havdalah (and be motzei his family!) after his petira – if he was motzee his family, he needed to be ALVIVE (a meis is chofshi m’mitzvos) – I guess you are kofer this gemarah too. It does not fit with your “belief system”.
Lernt – On the kever of Rambam it says שפתיו דובבות בקבר (even though he is buried under the ground and cannot “breath” – his lips are moving. I and you do not understand it, but if Chazal say so, it must be true! Also ON THE KEVER of Dovid Hamelech it says Dovid Melech Yisroel CHAI VKAYOM – kind of an oxymoron ON HIS KEVER, but we accept that (maybe you don’t but klal yisroel says ovid Melech Yisroel Chai VKayom at kiddush levana).
In your words: “Quite a mgic trick.”
Yet I tbelieve CHazal speak REALITY and not magic tricks. You are welcome to disbelieve Chazal (but they acceot that you become a kofe).
So DY does not believe that Eliyahu Hanovee remains alive (he thinks that believing so is apikursos). He doesn’t believe the stories in Gemarah that Eliyohu visited people and did various things including. He also does not believe that Rebbe Yehudah returned to make havdalah (and be motzei his family!) after his petira – if he was motzee his family, he needed to be ALVIVE (a meis is chofshi m’mitzvos) – which means he is kofer this and other gemarahs. Yet he calls others apikursim?! Typical (being mikayim chazal: kol haposel b’mumo posel).
שפתיו דובבות בקבר is a chazal that you are unaware of. It applies talmidei chachomim that are בקבר yet their lips are MOVING! If someone’s lips are moving – is that person dead? Define dead?!
Daas Yochid – “However, the reason they think he’s alive is because they think he can’t die, because he’s divine. That’s apikorsus.” Is believing that a person MUST die one of the 13 Ikrim? Some people did not die, ever, and we are told so in TNACH and Gemara, but does tat mean Eliyahu Hanovee is divine? Is it apikursos ?! You are talking like an Am Haaretz that is kofer b’divrei chachomim (and kol haposel b’mumo posel).
ClearKop – “This writing letters to the rebbe thing is like cristians keeping touch with yoshka. ”
Do xians write letters to yoshka?! I never heard of that! I know some children write to santa and send letters to North Pole, but to yoshka?! What address?!
I do know that many leave wedding invitations at the kever of departed parents or grandparents. Is that also a xian minhag?!
Or leaving a kvitel at a tzaddiks kever or a kivrei tzddikim in Israel – is that xian?!
Or a note in the kosel – is that from xians?!
My point is that yidden do these things but I never heard of xians doing this, yet you claim they do. Provide proof or admit that you “were raised in a crazy home” (your words) because kol haposel, b’mumo posel.
Daas Yochid – do you know that some “nut jobs” wrote at the Rambam’s kever that when someone learns his sefer – “his lips are moving in the kever”! If the Rambam is really “dead” – the lips don’t move!
Daas Yochid – “Rav Shach shlita. If a litvak would actually call him that, he’d be considered insane.”
True, because he is dead.
But saying Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai V’Kayim – is totally NOT insane.
One is Chai V’Kayom and one is dead.
“Why, then, has there been strong opposition *within Lubavitch* to the appellation “shlita” upon the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt”l?”
I was told because they are worried about those that say “Na’aseh Adom” – a proof of shtey reshuyos, these same people will also shilta means…as we see indeed there are such people that have such ta’anos. But others hold, “ha’rotzeh litos – yiteh” (those who with to mistaken – let them), as Rashi says in chumash).
Rav Shach shlita – ma zaro b’chayim after hu ba’hachayim. Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai v’Kayom. Why does he need our “brochos”? Tzakdikim b’misosom kruyim Chaim – oxymoron?! LIfe and death is byad Hashem – why say after anyone’s name shlita at all?! Are we able to control or extend someone’s allotment of life?!
I think it’s bad for you to use Artscroĺl gemarah – so I am going 5o steal your AS shas. And those cookies and chocolates – have you looked in a mirror? They are bad for your health and shidduch prospects: I will steal them. And that car you are driving – it’s sakonos nefoshos!