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“gofish, once again your comment does not remotely reflect any accurate description of my posts.”
Lol. You know, there are people who engage in verbal abuse with other people, and when called out on it, say exactly what you say.
There is no way for you to whitewash some of your posts. And the reason I’m responding instead of ignoring and shaking my head with pity, is so I shouldn’t be indirectly acquiescing with silence and that anyone reading these threads should know that your stand is not necessarily the correct one and may in fact be outright wrong.
You don’t have to bother responding to my post. We’ll probably just end up going in circles. I’ve said what I had to say, and I do hope that whatever insecurity is driving you on this women-degrading campaign will get healed and recovered. Good night.
“I think that a lot of the misunderstandings here have to do with people’s starting points. Everyone starts off with things that are a given and things that aren’t and therefore understands things within that context.”
No, I don’t think so. I don’t see how some of Joseph’s posts can be construed as anything but offensive.
Whatever his intentions are, it doesn’t matter when it comes to gauging the posts themselves. Some of his posts are downright disgusting and misrepresent what Chazal say.
Yes he may have good yet warped intentions, but in Judaism, the means don’t justify the ends.
my hope when approving his posts is that more posts like this will follow so that people who meet those views offline will know that there may not be truth to it all.
“The belief is that he is giving over the message he wants to give very effectively, unfortunately.”
This is something I actually don’t understand, so maybe the moderators can explain.
If someone were to post something neged haTorah, it would get deleted, right? Like if someone would post a liberal left wing post that went against the Yeshiva world’s values, it would be moderated and not even posted.
Well, we see here that there are extreme right wing views which can also be neged haTorah and quite dangerous and misleading.
Using the Torah to insult and put down women?? Using the Torah as a weapon for your misguided misogynistic views? Do you know what a chillul Hashem this makes for any person reading certain posts here that doesn’t have the knowledge that normative frum people chas vshalom don’t hold like that?
So why do those posts get approved? They are just as much neged haTorah!
Can someone explain?
Yes, lilmod, I do think men and women have different strengths.
And if someone believes that women’s tafkid in life is to support their husbands in kollel (which goes against the kesubah, but yes I accept that different communities have different values), I accept that as their right to live whatever lifestyle they feel brings meaning to them. I think differently, but that’s okay, there’s beauty in diversity.
But please, Joseph that is not what I am objecting to, for goodness sake! You know good and well what I am objecting to. You can’t just call women urns of excrement and constantly put them down, and then call any woman who objects to being told that she was merely created for jewelry, etc etc, that she has secular notions!
Because you’re not just saying that men and women are different, and you know it. You keep putting women down, and taking divrei chazal out of context. You’re presenting a very biased and unbalanced picture, cherry picking meforshim and providing a most unfortunate prejudiced perspective. I don’t know what your point is, but you know as well as I do that you are debasing women and not providing the full, true Torah perspective on women.
Well I did bring you a very good example but we’ll see if it gets posted…
Well, Little Froggie, what does Rashi say?
Sure, I’ll give you an example though it might get deleted.
The Gerrer marriage takanos. The Steipler Gaon wrote a scathing kuntris against them, saying that it is against the Torah and halacha, and most other rabbonim in klal Yisroel are against it as well. Yet in Ger, it is mesorah and as such ‘protected’ from basic halacha.
Thank you, lilmod. I think it would be a bizayon to insinuate, as one poster constantly does, that Chazal were so disrespectful to and callous of women. There obviously must be deeper meanings, because taken at face value it is very disturbing and contradicts what BY girls everywhere I taught. And if men really believed that, I can’t imagine any happy, healthy marriages based on such beliefs.
“Look up, do research, investigate, do homework before you dare castigate a community as a whole!!”
Oh, trust me I have.
Not just in my eyes. There are various minhagim and takanos that have become part of a community’s mesorah that have been called out by gedolim as being improper to do and against halacha. Yet somehow, the status of a ‘minhag’ protects it from scrutiny or correction.
Lilmod, I’m asking that as a general question…
“I’ll note that that is a comment from someone who just days ago questioned the need to be frum because she disagreed with Chazal’s statements, gofish.”
Is that your answer? An ad hominem attack? Smooth way to try to evade my question, but my question remains unanswered.
For the record, I did not question the need to be frum. When you posted a bunch of unconnected lines which seem to degrade, objectify, and shame women, I agreed with lilmod that there must be a deeper meaning (or it was taken completely out of context), because which woman would want to be part of a culture that literally thinks that she is an urn filled with excrement, or that she was created solely for jewelry, or that her husband falls into gehenom if he ever listens to her advice?
“I think the point is that if it’s their established Minhag, it’s not an aveira.”
I’ve never understood this. In some circles, especially the chassidish world, there is no system of checks and balances when it comes to minhagim. Anything that may have once been can be passed off as a minhag, or mesorah, even if it involves an aveirah or something that’s a distortion of the Torah. Why is this?
Joseph, why do you so fiercely feel the need to assert male supremacy? Why do you feel threatened by women and feel like you always need to always be in control of women, prove some contrived superiority of men, and constantly write leading questions like this? Why?
“Also, I am wondering if Neshamas even have genders in which case the whole question is irrelevant. (Actually, it’s irrelevant anyhow, but that would make it more so.)”
I’ve learned that Yitzchok had a feminine neshama, and during akeidas Yitzchok it was switched for a masculine one… So apparently that may be so.
Sorry Joseph, women are not just passive players in Judaism who live vicariously through their husbands and sons.
Imagine if you were a woman. Would you really want to live such a life? Where your whole worth and olam haba depended on your husband and you needed to be a meek obedient puppet to the men in your life, where your opinions and needs were worth less than theirs?
Not everything in a woman’s life is about her husband and sons. And neither is her afterlife.Women have deep, intimate connection with Hashem too, very possibly more than men.
“Those of you who say the women learn as well, what if they don’t know how? It is only in the last century or so, that, thanks to bais yakov, frum girls can learn something. For many centuries prior, the vast majority of women were totally ignorant, many, despite being extremely pious couldn’t read a siddur.”
We can say the same of all the many, many men in previous generation who did not know how to read or learn. The ameratzim, the poshute yidden who served Hashem with full hearts but very little knowledge. What about them?
***For women: She dresses tzniusly.
For real? No, that shows more often than not that she is conforming to society. Fear of the neighbors or the shadchanim is more like it.
Besides, there are different shittos. What one community considers tznius, another one would consider not tznius.
And, I find it very disturbing to gauge a woman’s level of fear of heaven based solely on dress. That’s very superficial.
Especially since nowadays, it is so easy for people to hide behind a levush of piety. You have no idea what is really going on inside. She can be doing it mindlessly by rote because that’s what everyone else in her society is doing. While having horrible midos, never davening, no connection to Hashem, and a Yiddishkeit that is dull and lifeless. And no fear of heaven at all.
And there are people that dress that way just for shidduchim even though that’s not who they really are at all.
All in all, I’d say it’s a very shallow way of judging people’s yiras shomayim. (And I don’t think we necessarily can really judge anyone’s yiras shomayim accurately.)
Many of these answers make it seem as though without man, woman is nobody and cannot fulfill her G-d given tafkid.
I respectfully disagree.
It says in the Mesillas Yeshorim that our tafkid in this world is – “ela l’hisnaheg el Hashem”.
To revel in Hashem, delight in Him, become close to Him, get to know Him, form a genuine relationship with Him.
“as he was a big Tzaddik What an understatement:- Rav Avigdor Miller ZTKLLH’H was The Godol haDor.”
Oh really? According to whom? Is there some objective criteria to determine who exactly is the gadol hador, that this meets?
I went to a very chareidi school and my principal had a bookshelf filled with Rav Avigdor Miller’s books, but I never heard anyone reference him as the gadol hador, ever. He was a big talmid chochom, he had a lot of influence and inspired many people, but I don’t know anyone who considers him to have been the gadol hador of his generation – and I’m talking about yeshivish people who greatly admire and respect his work.
“All these things (like most things Chazal say) are meant on a deeper level.”
I should hope so. Taken at face value, why would any woman want to be frum?
Lilmod, I loved your last post. That was brilliant and I think you raised a lot of really important points.
And in zoos, they get drugged up and live in confined cages.
Better to die a free animal than to live as a slave…
Joseph -“Rav said to R. Chiya: How do women [for whom Torah study is not considered a paramount duty] earn a share in the world to come? By making their small children go to the synagogue [where they learn Torah], and by making their husbands go to the yeshivah to learn Mishnah, and by waiting for their husbands until they come home from the yeshivah.”
This obviously isn’t the only way though to earn a share in the world to come. For single women also have a share in the world to come.
And like lilmod said, women get schar for learning Torah too, even if they aren’t obligated in it.
I listen to non Jewish music almost every day. I only listen to clean music that helps me become a better person – I always check the lyrics before listening to a new song to make sure it’s appropriate.
Edited. Not sure who accidentally approved that portion of the post…
geeps, you haven’t provided me with one concrete fact to back up your statement that I am 100% wrong. And yes, I have researched this quite extensively – using logic and facts, not hysteria and drama.
I am not discussing either candidate. I have had enough of that in real life, and frankly cannot wait until this ghastly election is over. I was discussing each candidate’s debate performance. How they performed at the third and final debate. Not the candidates themselves.
“golfish: You have a really awesome life! I like Jeruzalem too! I’d like to note that some of the challenge for older singles is living a meaningful life even when your life looks very boring. For example in Israel it’s very uncommon for a girl to leave her parents’ house before she is married (maybe because everything is so close, living separately seems like a strange step) You can imagine how it can be more difficult for a girl who lives at home to live her life in the present and not think constantly about getting married.”
There definitely are parts of my life that are awesome, baruch Hashem. I do have many painful challenges as well, but they are completely unrelated to being single.
Yes, I can imagine, because I lived at home for a year and a half after shana bet. And that was all people were interested in. Me, my education, my interests, my career- nah, that was all superfluous. The main thing was – nu, when are you getting married? People started setting up tehillim groups for me when I was 21…
Being that I did not want to get married then, I learned to block all that out and regard them with amusement and some pity – what a pity they thought that all there was to life for a girl was marriage. And I deliberately and consciously made sure to do things that would infuse my life with meaning. Life is not all about marriage, and there are so many things singles can do because they have the time and aren’t tied down to a husband’s schedule and the responsibilities of married life. I gotta say I embrace my singlehood – there is no way I could have had the career I have now, and love, had I gotten married right away, along with many other opportunities I would have missed out on.
(Oh, and I left the chareidi community (for other reasons) – I have to say that helped a lot.)
I wasn’t impressed with either one’s performance, but imo Hillary did a better job than Donald.
Donald had numerous gaffes in this debate. His alarming answer to whether he would concede or not, which completely contradicted what his daughter Ivanka and his VP Mike Pence said – Ivanka just that morning, became the chief takeaway of the debate. It split the Republican Party even more. He deflected numerous questions, went off topic and said many false things which the audience knew had been debunked already.
More than that, he was crude, really crude. His insults to Hillary, sometimes completely out of nowhere and out of place, make him appear to be childish and a sore loser. It was the approach of a desperate loser, not a confident winner.
Hillary on the other hand was confident and polished. Her answers were articulate, well thought out and her approach of taking the higher road made Donald look boorish and foolish next to her. I didn’t like some of her answers and think she could have done better, but she gave a decent, strong performance.
I’m gonna take that as a joke.
“I consider myself as being a mentch! Who says you are?!?”
Whoa, do you think that unwarranted attack was mentchlich?
I never said that I am a mentch, though I do sincerely hope I am a mentch. All I said was that that is my most important qualification in a husband. No need to pull out the redundant punctuation points.
“Stop speaking to yourself! What Yeshiva did you learn in?
If you’re a woman, you’re whole post reeks of Gaivah!”
Geez, the misogyny in the Coffee Room sometimes astounds me. There are actually women who are extremely well versed in halacha and can be way more knowledgeable than you, speaking of gaavah.
I don’t think I’m an older single, but the community I grew up in and my family definitely does. 😉
I’m single by choice, so that probably makes a difference. I have never dated anyone yet and said no to all suggestions. This is a very important stage for me, and I don’t want to forfeit it until I have done what I want to accomplish and am ready to move on to the next stage.
I am very happy, and appreciate the chance I have to develop and explore myself without having another person in the picture.
I moved out of my parents house and moved to Israel, a place I love with all my heart. I live in a beautiful neighborhood I love which has a lot of other singles.
I have an awesome career which stimulates, challenges and rewards me.
I have great friends and we have good times together.
I do some volunteer work which is meaningful to me.
I take courses every now and then, and have discovered new passions.
I have friends who hate being single. I have friends who have done all kinds of incredible things they would not have been able to do if they were married. I think that making sure your life is meaningful, staying connected with people who are good for you, and doing things you enjoy and find fulfilling is very important. There are so many opportunities singles can take advantage of precisely because they’re single.
The most important thing for me is that he is a mentch. First, last and middle criteria. (Obviously, compatibility, similar hashkafos, etc, but the ultimate defining factor is that he has to be a mentch.)
My parents both have yichus, choshuv families, my father is a rabbi, they were both the “top catches” with all the qualities so many people stress on… None of that means a thing if a person isn’t a mentch.
Writersoul, I love Horeb. One of my favorite seforim.
Daniel123, if you liked the Garden of Emunah, you might enjoy other Breslov based seforim, like Meshivas Nefesh. The Breslov Research Institute has translated many Breslover seforim into English and I’ve really enjoyed some of them. Check out the Bookstore on their site.
“how can you make a spouse stay in a marriage he/she doesn’t want to stay in, etc…”
That sounds terrible and alarmingly controlling.
“Additionally, Fundamentalist Mormons have openly been practicing polygamy in the United States for hundreds of years and continue to openly do so today.”
That is actually an excellent case study. LDS women, men and children have spoken out over a century, and decades ago about the abuse of women this practice has brought about. Again, read The 19th Wife. There are many desperately unhappy sister wives. There may be a few who are content, but the potential this has for abuse and unhappiness by far outweighs the few that have wholeheartedly accepted it.
Nice summary there.
Gothic rock is dark punk music. I hope you’re not listening to deathrock, Sparkly, that’s pretty depressing.
Joseph, the minhag started with the feinshmekers, and then spread to the hamon am who wanted to reach that exalted level too.
Actually, there are cake gemachs in the NY area, where people can give their frozen untouched vort/bar mitzvah fancy cakes, and it gets passed on from simcha to simcha… So people may not necessarily be spending $90 a cake.
Theprof1, officially the cherem expired already…
Although most of us (or all of us) live in places where polygamy is illegal, so dinei malchusa prohibits that, very thankfully!
This is a case of minhag hamakom. It only applies to New York and Lakewood, last I saw. As to who started this sacred minhag – the feinshmekers, of course.
“someone who is gothic CANNOT be yeshivish.”
Sparkly, do you mean a person who is a goth?
What does that have to do with you? You said you were yeshivish, so then obviously you’re not a goth (or gothic, which is not really a description of a person unless you are descended from the original Goths). Right?
No.
Personally, I would rather remain single all my life than be a sister wife.
Read The 19th Wife to see how well polygamy works in America…
Well the source of my genius in languages is Google Translate…
Eu gosto moito de fritir a radio e entrega-lo ao carteiro. (Galician)
Ek sou baie graag diep braai die radio en oorhandig dit aan die posman. (Afrikaans)
? ? ?????? ?????, ??? ??????? ????????? ????? ? ???????? ??? ???????.
Yes, I’m a genius at languages. You’re welcome.
Why scary?
Either way, I have no way of verifying your identity, so don’t worry.
“Hey Gofish, I didn’t know you live in the Holy Land too! Cool! Wonder if I know you…I can’t think of any fish offhand, so I guess not.”
For some reason, I just saw this now.
I think I might actually know you… If I’m correct, you wouldn’t know me, but you would definitely know some of my friends.
Then again, I can be totally wrong.
Here’s some shidduch advice:
Don’t start dating until you are emotionally ready.
From your recent posts, it seems as though you do not have the emotional stability or maturity needed to sustain a successful marriage.
I’m sorry, I know this probably sounds very hurtful. But there are people I know who were in a similar stage to you when they started dating, and they did not have a happy ending.
Give yourself time to explore yourself.
And ask yourself, why do you want to start shidduchim now? Don’t start dating for the wrong reasons.
Lilmod, I know many wonderful chareidi people who I truly admire and respect. Those who are balanced and moderate have only my admiration.
That being said, there are too many people like Joseph and the like in the chareidi communities I’ve seen and lived in to ever be comfortable in such a community. Unfortunately, there is also a growing number of people who are becoming more and more extreme.
I have found a beautiful community, baruch Hashem, with people who overall give priority to both bein adom laMakom and bein adom lachaveiro and basic human needs too, and don’t trample on people, don’t subjugate women to the whims of power-hungry, egoistic men – all in the name of Hashem, of course.
I don’t know if this story is true, but I have heard it said that when Rav Ahron Kotler was asked what would be the greatest challenge in the coming generations, he said it would be the perversion of Torah. And sadly, this seems to be coming true on both ends of the spectrum.
You know, Joseph, it is people like you who have made me come to the conclusion that the chareidi world isn’t for me.
Whether or not what you are quoting about divorce is true, in this context it is horrific. Lilmod explained it quite well and I’m surprised at the level of cordiality she has managed to maintain in her posts towards you.
Using the Torah to force women into staying in bad marriages and continuing to suffer is wrong. It says that the Torah is like poison in the wrong hands. Case in point.
As much as many of your posts disgust me, I have to thank you. I fled from an abusive home where my very chareidi father constantly used the Torah to continue to control and abuse his children. Particularly, you and him would probably enjoy a delightful conversation about women in which you would discover that you have almost identical viewpoints. So reading your posts keeps showing me that I made the right decision, both in leaving my childhood home and in choosing a different path in Yiddishkeit for myself.