gitty —

It would be nice if posts were added more quickly.

Tal – When I think about my teenage years I do feel some pain. However my life was nothing like the hell you described. I think that what it comes down to is that deep down inside you always believed. Nothing could shake that, and that’s admirable. However I always had doubts, and those doubts became louder and louder as my outrage mounted. Eventually I became free and my life has dramatically improved ever since.

TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY: I understand that you have not read the whole thread, however I already answered your questions. I am 21 and I did not make the decision go to “off the derech” lightly. I have certainly spoken with people. In fact, I had a chavrusah for several years. I stopped believing before I stopped practicing. I made sure I was sure.

To everyone else: I grew up frum so I know all of the mashals you can throw at me. I have heard them all. I know it’s hard for you to understand my decision, but please accept that I did what was right for me.

The city needs the revenue. So they make laws that are literally impossible to follow.

Notpashut – I think there have been many great rabbis from whom a lot can be learned. However there are great people of many different religions. The only reason you feel so strongly about say Rav Moshe Feinstien is because you grew up as an Orthodox Jew. Children who grew up with different belief systems admire their great religious leaders with equal passion.

Re: Excuses/Reward & Punishment

Yashrus20, I know you mean well. However I grew up frum. I went to schools that taught me a lot of Torah. I understand Judaism very well. What you need to understand is that if you have to be a Believer in order to be frum, that ended long before I stopped keeping shabbos. However I stopped playing along because frum society was making me miserable. If I had been content I would not have gone to the trouble of changing my lifestyle. It was not as if I wanted to eat cheeseburgers so I decided not to believe. That would be ridiculous.

Another thing: The idea of heaven and hell just doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t believe in God or an afterlife. This is something that I have done some heavy thinking about. I am a philosophy minor so I have read the views of dozens of very smart people on the subject. I have discovered a worldview that is a combination of all the wisdom I have read. And I have to say that after all that, I am more sure than ever that heaven and hell were made up to pacify the masses and keep them in line at the same time.

havesomeseichel,

I’ve been out of town. However, I have to say that responses like yours frustrate me a lot. What does it say that when a lot of frum Jews get together they create a culture that is so unappealing to intelligent, free thinking people? Your argument is that frum Jews are okay in small groups. Well fine, but excuse me if that’s not good enough for me. I am now part of a group of people that is wonderful to live among – whether the community is large or small.

I’ve been enjoying this conversation and have been somewhat surprised to see the number of thoughtful responses.

Yes, it is true that many secular people have happy, fulfilling lives. It is a complete misconception that unless you believe in Judaism your life will be filled with empty materialism. In fact, I tend to see the exact opposite in my life. Far too many frum people are obsessed with the newest custom wig or making sure their kid rides around in the most upsale European strollers. Don’t you see how Bais Yaakov girls are so focused on having the “in” brand name purse or shoes?

Re: Television. One thing that turned me off religion was the false piety I witnessed on an almost daily basis. Not having a television is something done as a status symbol, not a way to boost family interaction and intelligence by encouraging conversation and reading over mindless screen watching. I do not have a television, and I don’t ever plan to. I will watch what I want to online. But the fakery and window dressing that goes on is insane.

Re: Shabbos. Let’s make one thing clear. I have issues with authority. I don’t like rules – the fewer the better. In many ways, I was not exactly predisposed towards liking religion – probably from birth. Some people have personalities that favor structure. I prefer to make my own structure. Being told what wear, when/what to eat, when I can use electricity etc – it’s just not my cup of tea. Some people find comfort and stability in being told what to do. I don’t. I’ll put up with it from my boss because he pays me, the police because I literally don’t have a choice and from my professors because they control my grades. But that’s where it ends.

Another turn off has been the animosity between different groups of religious Jews. I just had enough of it after a while. Does it really matter what kind of kippah you wear or whether a woman wears sandals without socks? Are these things really crucial? One thing I have always despised about the way religious Judaism is practiced is the emphasis on superficial signs of observance. The pettiness just became too much after a while. Living in a more inclusive world is like breathing fresh air for the first time.

I’m really glad that this topic generated so much discussion. Whoever said that I must still be somewhat involved if I’m posting here. Well kind of. I joined this site specifically because one of my friends tipped me off that someone who sounded like my mother posted here.

It sounds like many of you are thoughtful, wonderful people. I hope that you will keep some of things I said in mind then next time you deal with or give advice about a teen who seems to be “going off the derech”. I am very lucky that I got on a track that is productive and good. Many of my former peers were not as lucky – largely because of the reactions of their parents and rabbis.

About the yeshivish world itself, my main gripes are with the schools. However I find the society itself to be even more superficial than the secular world. A secular person who has a large, state of the art kitchen can’t cloak their actions in piety. A frum person can brag about their seperate sinks and dishwashers – oh and don’t forget the pesach kitchen. This extends from custom wigs to shul donations.

In the secular world, things other than yichus and money are recognized and appreciated. Art, music, literature – or just being articulate. I was told to be quiet and obey at school until I went to college. College was astounding in that respect. Suddenly I was being ENCOURAGED to express my opinion. It was very welcome.

I find the secular world to be a much more satisfying place to live my life. And not just on superficial levels – on all the deeper levels too.

To all those who seem to think the validity of my happiness depends on whether I’m shomer shabbos, I’d like to set the record straight. I’m not. I feel like I gained an extra Sunday to do what I please with every week. Is life a picnic all the time? Of course not. But I can honestly say that this has been the happiest year of my entire life.

Just as a point of interest: When I was a teen, I was lumped into the “teens at risk” category. The truth is that I wasn’t at risk of anything except becoming not frum. But as a result, I became friends with kids who were doing drugs and in some cases involved in illegal activities such as insurance fraud. For those kids, a rejection of halacha meant a rejection of morality altogether. It didn’t for me, and I stayed away from anything illegal. But the way “at-risk” teens are dealt with by the establishment is far from productive.

My parents did try – I’ll definitely give them that. After much pleading on my part, they agreed to switch me from the insane BY I attended for two years (where I lost large amounts of weight from sheer misery) to a local Modern Orthodox school. That would have been fine if the principal wasn’t completely off her rocker. A few months in, she accused me of something so outrageous it was obviously false. She “suggested” that a large donation to the school would “help my situation”. Disgusted, my parents began looking for a new school to send me to.

I decided that I was done with the Orthodox scholastic establishment, and for good reason. I went to college at age sixteen and never looked back. Right now I am a twenty one year old college senior. I work hard at school, and at work. I cook my own meals, I pay my own rent and I clean my own apartment (among other things).

Tzippi – When I miss my mother’s cooking, I call her up for recipes. I happen to be a very good cook. I make really great dinners if I may say so myself. It’s really wonderful to have my own kitchen. I do live my life with purpose and meaning. I recognize that I have a lot of learning and growing to do.

It should be said that my parents were not perfect, but they dealt with me a lot better than other parents I know. I have no doubt that things could have turned out very different for me. Sometimes all parents care about is whether or not their kid is frum. That shouldn’t be the goal. If a kid is being a productive, responsible member of society that should be enough. The sooner people realize that the sooner off the derech suicide rates will go down. The same goes for drug addiction, unplanned pregnancies, etc.

I visit my family. I know they still love me. I can love them with all my heart now that I don’t have to sit in my room all shabbos waiting for it to be over.

Imma,

I have friends all over the internet, and one let me know that someone who sounded like my mother posted.

I’m sorry that my being gone hurts you. It makes me really sad that you feel pain about this, it really does. I don’t know if you fully understand how happy I am now. I needed to leave home years ago, and the fact that I couldn’t made me miserable beyond imagination. I was stuck. I lashed out because I was dying inside.

I feel like I can breathe now. My life has finally begun. Please be happy for me.

(Just thinking about this makes me cry. I haven’t cried in over a year.)