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a zid, thank you for your neat summary.
I must add
1a) Minhag Ashkenaz, (aka Yekkes) put on with a brocho.
2a) Oberlanders are not chassidim, as they daven ashkenaz. (This may start something rolling…)
5) In EY no body puts on, because there Ashkenaz follow the Gra (also in duchening, special shir shel yom for yom tov, ein k’elokenu at the end of davening, etc), and sefardim follow Maran Bet Yosef.
Our Shul is officially minhag ashkenaz. However, many don’t according to their own minhag, baalei teshuva who don’t have a minhag from before and anyone who has lived in EY for any significant time also do not wear tefilin. The Rov doesn’t, as that is his personal custom. So about 35% do wear. However, the baalei tefila for shacharis have to wear tefilin.
Interestingly, I don’t wear tefilin in shul, as I lived in EY for two years, keeping 1 day yom tov. I do put them on at home without a brocho, according to the psak of my Rov at that time, Rav Moshe Sternbuch. But that is only kept as a personal chumrah, meaning that my children will wear tefilin in shul with a brocho, like my original minhag.Benny is not his real nickname, but it’s about equal to what it really is.
Talking to him, I would say (like YesorNo & APushataYid), “I want to ask The Rov …”
Talking about him, I would say, “The Rov said…”, if there was another Rabbi Ginsburg, “Reb Eliyohu (Ginsburg – if there is more than one Rabbi called Eliyohu) said…” I’ve been told that in America, the equivalent of Reb Eliyohu, would be Rav Eliyohu.Here in Manchester, there are two Rabonim with the exact same name. Let’s say for example it’s Rabbi Binyomin Greenberg. One is a Rov of a shul, the other is the mashgiach of a Yeshiva. (They happen to be mechutonim as well, but that’s for another time). The one who is a Rov, has a nickname, let’s say it’s Benny. So people will say, “I spoke to Reb Binyomin Greenberg today, I mean Reb Benny, and…” adding in the nickname for clarity. If they mean the other one, they will say “I spoke to Reb Binyomin Greenberg today, I mean the mashgiach/ the one from Shaarei Torah, and…”. In this case the nickname is used purely for clarity and does not demean the Rov in any way.
R’ Alex Clare’s story is very inspiring. Listening to this is 47 minutes well spent https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=39947
Conneticut – … (The place where CTL lives)
If Pizza, Diet Coke is a state and community, it’s only a Daas yochid. We don’t pasken like that!
Zaltzvasser, Do you mean, Gauteng – Johannesburg?
Gauteng – Pretoria (Tshwane)
KwaZulu-Natal – Durban
Western Cape – Cape TownVictoria – Melbourne
ZD, I have not forgotten Hampstead, Antwerp or Edgware.
Yekke2, time is short,so I can’t answer fully. You make good points.
You touched on this, but what we have to remember, that the true ehrlicher people who shout Shabbos at a passing car, are shouting to reinforce their own shemiras mitzvos, not because we have to shout at a baal aveira. They don’t throw stones or attack them chas vesholom. The people we are complaining about here, are unfortunately misguided in various ways. Hitting out at a passing woman whose dress mode does not conform to your own, or shouting nazi at a policeman, is not going to reinforce your own yiddishkeit nor have any positive effect on the subject of your abuse.Armentières-en-Brie, Seine-et-Marne (France)
Ok, Europeans – lets go… (New Yorkers, just watch this, you won’t have heard of any of these)
Tyne & Wear, Gateshead
btw, Scotch and Scottish are not the same thing.
NeutiquamErro, Wow, that is most eloquent. I think Sturgeon is just trying to show she’s in charge, when everyone knows she is largely irrelevant.
RebYidd23, I wholeheartedly apologise and withdraw that sexist comment. Obviously, the correct term is perchildicure.
ps, I was brought up under the apartheid government in South Africa, but I’m trying my best to get over it.
“Powershteig” LOVE IT!!
Scotland would be very unwise to go anywhere. To put it into perspective, there are more people in London, than Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland combined!
cantthinkoffancyusername,
You would have to say ‘personicure’.These people don’t listen to Rav Elyashiv…or anyone else.
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Yekke2’s description of Gateshead.
True. I wasn’t there, but I imagine it would’ve been with more decorum than the 2017 model.
Winnie, LOL.
My old company had a few properties in the Isle of Man. We used to call it Isle of Person.I don’t get the basketball reference, but I see what you’re trying to do.
If you google vhaarevna, you will find a website which explains it in detail.
I’ve just been looking through it. It looks really good. I need to read through properly to see how it works. Is there anyone on here who’s joined this program?
Who says Humankind? Mankind means the species of humans. Political Correctness gone mad! Soon they’ll be changing the word ‘woman’ to ‘woperson’…
What is most painful to me, is that these hoodlums, are acting supposedly in the name of HaRav Shmuel Auerbach Shlita. I doubt he is aware of what is really going on, but that aside, Rav Shmuel’s father, Rav Shloime Zalman ztzvk”l, was the epitome of ‘dracheha darchei noam’. He never got involved in politics at all, and was known for being a peace maker. How are these actions being done in the name of his son?!
Rif, Just to clarify what Gr8Bochur suggested.
Tiferes Tzion is in Telshe Stone, and the big draw there is Rabbi Blumenfeld known as “The Mash”. You may have seen an article in the Mishpacha about him. If you can hold of it, it was Wednesday July 20 2016.
Reb Lopian’s place is Lev Arye in Neveh Yaakov. Rabbi Aaron Lopian is the son of Gateshead Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Leib Lopian. I don’t know much about the yeshiva though.baisyaakovliberal, I apologise for my assumption and accusation above.
Lilmod, Thank you for pointing this out.
Did your teacher refer to you as “the future troll of the CR”?
iacisrmma, I take your point. As I said, I don’t know the young man. I just said as I saw it, and if not helpful to the OP, it may be helpful to others.
Rif, I would love to help you. But, I don’t know the American Yeshivos in EY. I do know someone who was in AJ, though. It seems they do a good job, but I don’t know anything about it in the last 11 years. (I did see Rabbi Jablinowitz in Manchester last week though, pity I didn’t know that you may be interested in his Yeshivah). If you are open to the European option (Brexit not withstanding) have you considered Ba’er HaTorah in Gateshead? It is a ‘yeshivishe’ yeshiva, but very much geared towards getting yeshiva ketana age, (I’m sorry I’m not familiar with the grades in the US) like 15-16-17 year old boys, to have a cheishek for learning. I have seen very successful b’nei Torah come out of there. They have a special program, ve’haarev na, which encourages repeated chazora to ‘be koineh’ a mesechte in a geshmakke way. All the Rebbeim are very dedicated to the boys and they do trips and have melave malkas and different programs to make yeshiva life more enjoyable. However, I can’t imagine that they allow mobile phones.
Gr8Bochur, I hear what you’re saying. No one said it was simple. It would be a huge challenge, and not knowing you, perhaps I gave wrong advice. However, I still hold by what I said, and hopefully you or someone else will get chizuk from it at some stage.
I wish you only hatzlocho in your onward, upward journey.My dear Gr8Bochur,
I’ve been following this thread with interest and I see that basically you’ve gotten nowhere. Before I answer, I would like to disclaim; I don’t know you or your personal situation. I’m going to answer based on the scant information that you have provided, as well as my experience as a South African bred (so I understand the wider world), Gateshead and Mir educated (so I understand the yeshivishe velt), 40-something (so I have life experience) male adult. I would hate to see someone who wants to shteig just fall by the wayside.
It’s clear that you want to continue learning. You said in your opening paragraph that you want to go to a place strong in their learning. However, clearly you don’t want to give up the comforts of life that you are now used to, e.g. the smartphone, and the chilling that a young bochur can do.
I’m assuming that you want to learn, and as such you will HAVE to give up something. To be successful in Yeshiva and later in Kollel (and in fact in anything in life), you have to be willing to leave your comfort zone. Life is starting for real now and to be really successful you can’t remain a young boy. Wouldn’t it be amazing to challenge yourself, to try aim high and reach for the sky? There is no better feeling than getting home at the end of a zman, with a mesechte in your pocket, with a full notebook of your Rosh yeshiva’s shiurim and having conquered a bad midda with powerful mussar.
You have a chance now to grab the bull by the horns, leave the phone and the chilling for when zman is over, and dive straight in to the Yam haTalmud.
Flatbush is not a midbar, and I’m sure there are wonderful Rabonim and morei derech there. It’s difficult to tell from here in the UK, but I have heard shiurim from Rabbi Lieff of the Agudah Bais Binyomin, he sounds like someone I would be able to talk to. Decide that you want to reach for the stars, and take advice from a Rav, or your present Rosh Yeshiva/Principal or a respected Yungerman who knows you or your personal circumstances. Us YW CR people are nice, but we’re anonymous and we’re not going to push you, or be there in Bain Hazmanim to say “Sholom Aleichem Tzadik’l, vos hot men gelernt dem zman?” (OK some of us do.)
Remember, only you can decide to be the best you can be, and you only get one chance to do it. Hatzlocho gedola!
With love from Geordie613,
Manchester, Englandiacisrmma, Yes that’s the story I heard. Apparently the reason for the minhag, goes back to the old type of cheese that people waited 6 hours for. If you had that type of cheese on Friday, you couldn’t have meat at the Shabbos seuda.
Btw, I like how you shorten the name to G613, it’s kind of cool.
Your signature line? What happened to your username?
Wasn’t it R’ Yaakov who had a minhag from his grandmother not to eat cheese on Friday?
What if the Sfardi decides to change his mesorah?
SholomBenYosef, just to address your original question together with additional info you’ve given us. I know of many Lubavitchers, including one choshuve Rosh Yeshiva in a big community, who have dropped their connection with the official 770 Chabad chassidus but still retain their Lubavitch identity, minhagim and Nusach Ari. I don’t know where you are in the world, but there are places where these yieden have opened up batei medrash and all that goes with it.
You don’t need to be come a Harry (I hate that term! 🙁 ) you can stay as a Sholom (are you Sholom Ber?), but maybe it is hakoras hatov to the derech of the Rebbes of Chabad who brought your family back into yiddishkeit. Obviously, I don’t know your background so this may be inappropriate and I apologise if I have offended you.I’m completely lost on this thread. What are you people talking about? I think lox is salmon, but why would you want to toast a bagel, before putting the oily fish on?
iacisrmma, Just regarding the picture you mentioned. Are you sure it’s that way round? I would think Rav Schwab would have stood, as per the aschkenaz minhag, and Reb Sholom would have sat.
I would like to suggest we all get our hard earned (in some cases) subtitles back.
iacisrmma,
It is a nice problem to have, BH. Your children have gone to Yeshiva, and grown in their ruchniyus. They have seen their rebbeim up close and, seeing them as examples of a higher level of frumkeit (for lack of a better word), have wanted to take on their hanhogos. This is admirable up to a point. In your case, it is that their own mesorah is different. It is telling, that I have found that people follow family minhag very closely on Pesach. This is the one yomtov, that everybody comes home. We don’t see our Rebbeim at their Sedorim, and their hanhogos with mitzvas matzoh, for example. In Belz, if I’m not mistaken, bochurim of a certain age go to the Rebbe for leil haseder, for exactly this reason – the other way around.I have an interesting anecdote on this subject, which may help. In the Mir, I had a connection with Rav Binyomin Carlebach Shlit”a. He is a son-in-law of Rav Beinish Finkel ztzvk”l, but also happens to be the grandson of my grandfather’s rebbe in Hamburg, Germany, Rav Yosef Zvi (Jozef Hirsch) Carlebach ztzvk”l. I had occasion, at least twice, to ask him what my family’s minhag is where I had doubt. (One of the questions happened to be whether we always stand for kiddush and havdolo.)
Perhaps you could find a Rebbe in your sons’ yeshivos who is of your mesora to guide them along.
How long before? What was different to minhag ashkenaz?
Thank you Avi K.
Joseph, which other Ashkenazic mesorah is there? I doubt anything else goes back further than the Talmidei HaGra, which is around the time of the Baal Hatanya.I’ve taken my eye off this topic for a bit and it’s gone a long way. I think people misunderstood my original post.
I said “Bear in mind that anyone who has chassidish mesorah, it cannot be more than 250 years old, going back to ashkenaz doesn’t seem so bad”
Ubiquitin replied “Every minhag is “only” x number of years old.”The big difference is, That minhag Ashkenaz goes back almost unchanged to the period of the Rishonim and Chassidei Ashkenaz. It still follows the Maharil which is even older than the Rema, who the “Litvish” mesorah is based on before the Gra. The “Yekkisch Mesauroh” which is over 1,000 years old, is rivalled only by Sefardim in Syria and Persia/Iran and the Teimanim/Yemenites whose tradition is even older.
Any changes in Tefilla or hanhogos in mitzvos which were initiated by the chassidim, were mainly, if not totally, al pi sod (Kabbalistic), and were not practiced by the tzibbur at the time of the rishonim.
DaMoshe,
“R’ Moshe zt”l wrote, there is no explanation for why the chassidim changed the text of davening, and it was a change to the text that had been used for centuries”
I’d be interested to see that teshuva inside. I thought it was well known, that the changes were to parallel the changes that the Arizal instituted in nusach sfarad.For any CRers who may not know; The first major change by the Chassidim in nusach hatefila, was by the Alter Rebbe/Baal HaTanya. The Arizal had put in various changes to the original Sefardi nusach, and the Ba’al HaTanya copied them into nusach ashkenaz. That’s why the Lubavitcher siddur is called Nusach Ari. The later Chassidic leaders made further changes according to mystic sources, and this eventually became the Nusach sfard siddur of the chassidim today.
You have a question in halacha, and think, I must ask Joseph that.
Very interesting. Bear in mind that anyone who has chassidish mesorah, it cannot be more than 250 years old, going back to ashkenaz doesn’t seem so bad.
Do you live in a chassidish community? When you say ashkenaz, do you mean, ‘yekkish’ like Breuers style proper ashkenaz? Or do you mean regular yeshivish/litvish?Sarit,
There was a great Rabbi in New York, who passed away about 2 years ago called, Rabbi Eliyahu Yehoshua Geldzahler. There is nothing wrong with these names and they are holy names. No need to worry about other People’s stories.
The question reminds me of another great Rabbi called Rabbi Yisrael Eliyahu Yehoshua Trunk, Rabbi of Kutna, who lived in the 1800s. He used to spell his name ?????????? (Yisraeliyahoshua) as the letters of his name sort of run into each other.
I can re-iterate what Syag Lchochma said in parentheses, ‘and some stay forever’.
I know a group of people who are ‘Medrash Guys’ here in England. They are proud of their Yeshiva, their Rosh Yeshiva and their derech halimud and they keep together, and keep in touch with what is happening in the Yeshiva even long after leaving. I would say they are shtarker Baale batim. I also know that the yeshiva has produced many Rabonim of what’s known here as United Synagogue communities.
Geeps, Right, thank you. Ive gone back to read it again closer. So he’s established a yeshiva in EY and he lives in the US. That’s what was confusing me.