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ZD – Only in America, and that is happening to non-Jews as well.
The progressive social action of Western society.
Yeraim.
Whom do you appreciate more?
The really serious learners, the soldiers, and then the vast majority in Israel who learn for social acceptance and to avoid the draft, in that order.
🙂
Many poskim hold you do get an aveira. Some poskim hold it is treif.
This is true. Cholov Akum or Bishul Akum creates Tarfus in pots, for example. If Cholov HaCompanies is Cholov Akum, it creates the same Tarfus.
Don’t be shocked, you would Kasher a Milchig spoon that you put into your chicken soup by mistake.
There are Poskim who do not hold by O-U Star-K or other mass market hashghcha and only want their people to eat their own approved hashchas, does that make the mass market hashgchas treif
Chitim B’Seorim. Notice the word “want”. This is a Takanas Chazal, not some Rabbi’s “want”.
Gavra, we probably disagree as to what level of education is required to be able to choose what to read from the public library.
And probably what is acceptable as well. Mods blocked my post when I tried to question where the line is (or should be) drawn. As you may have surmised, I believe (in general) the more you ban, the more likely the child will ignore/rebel against you and go for the really bad stuff. And yes, I’ll mostly trust an older child (while I still have a say) that they will look at books on sports and not something that he or she knows they shouldn’t be reading.
You seemed to mostly ignore my distinction based on level of yetzer hora.
I don’t believe I can discuss this here without the Mods blocking. However, I’m usually the one who warns of the Power of the Dark Side, and am very concerned with it. However, that deals (mostly) with the child who looks for such items, not an accidental reader.
Gavra, it is much easier to have a list of acceptable hechsherim than to figure out which books are okay. Also, the yetzer hora for non kosher food is much smaller.
Education. And you can whitelist and/or screen if you want.
Syag, it’s okay to swim with a lifeguard, and okay to walk into a library if the parent knows what’s okay and is supervising. I’m not sure that we’re disagreeing.
Not exactly true. Even with a life guard, you need to pass a test to go into the deep water, and (in some camps) have a “buddy”.
Once again, education.
If you allow them to go to the library, you are essentially being mechanech them that the library is a kosher place to be, and if not, that it’s not a kosher place to be.
If you take your child to Jewel, are you being mechanech them that everything there is Kosher as well? If you take them to the zoo, are you being mechanech them the concession stands are kosher?
Once again, the key is education. Restrictions can also work in limited scenarios, after explanation. I don’t see the public library (even with Harry Potter books, of all horrors) as the place to draw the line, but admit it is subjective to the parent and the child.
Does anyone know if the “treifah shailah” applies outside the USA, where Cholov Yisroel is required anyway?
I don’t teach my kids to swim, yet I let them go to the pool by themselves, because anyhow they go out in the rain.
Keddushin 29a:
????? ??? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??????
Not surprising, since Frum people B’shitah ignore Chazal regarding ??????, they also ignore Chazal regarding ?????? ????
;-p
Seriously, I’m not suggesting taking your children to Times Square. It is a matter of degree (as you seem to admit), and the question is where to draw the line. As explained earlier, it has to be dependent on the child him/her-self. The child can just as easily walk/bike into the library on their own if they so desire.
But to let a child into a library unsupervised into a public library, with access to any all types of shmutz is inadvisable and asking for trouble.
One can say the same thing about letting a teen go on their own to the grocery store, or summer camp, or anywhere outside your daled amos. The key is education and Tefilah, not restrictions and bans.
queen – as i understood gavra (and as i myself would have stated had he not) it isn’t “my house my rules” vs. “my house kids rules”. It is about the delivery, intent and consistency of the rules. The rules have a basis whether the kids understand them or not, and are not just “rules”. That type of parenting is very common and very weak. Anyone who works with kids will tell you that it backfires, it only works while they fear you.
Being strict has nothing to do with that issue. You can be very strict in both types of “rulings” and the productive type is probably the one your daughters principal practiced.
Even if they don’t understand why, the child should understand that the rule is created out of love and care, not ease, social standard, or other ulterior reason.
Well said, especially the point about consistency.
The Queen – You are mixing up two different issues.
A parent needs to be a teacher to pass your values onto the next generation. That is what it means to be a “strong” parent, one how explains, spends time, and hits the hard facts of life.
A “weak” parent is the one who just has the rules, and says “no” without any explanation to the child. Even if the child listens due to fear of punishment, it is still a “weak” action.
Once a child is a teen the “my house, my rules” approach of the weak parent simply causes frustration, rebellion, and eventual pushing the child to the edge which you “have no experience with that, and you would need specialized guidance in such a case”.
A strong parent who has taught, explained, and works with their child when they were younger has done something. Once they are a teen, it is mostly too late.
Once they’re adults,
Even as teenagers, there is not much you can do.
Why would you let your older kids (what age do you classify as older?) without supervision?
When it would be counterproductive and controlling (or viewed as such by the child) to do so.
A teen is his/her own subject, and each one needs to be decided on his/her own merits.
If you want to show off that your children are Frum, you should announce that they don’t have library cards, and that you won’t do a shidduch with someone who does.
Hat Tip: Daas Yochid 🙂
Seriously, I wouldn’t let my (smaller) child take books out without supervision of some kind. Luckily, our local library has an option where a child can only take out children’s books or DVDs, so I’m less concerned.
A teen is his/her own subject, and each one needs to be decided on his/her own merits.
ya know that is certainly a cool lesson on people and their inner thoughts. He spoke about his desperation to have a kid in yeshiva because the doors have been closed for monetary reasons and to me “any suggestions” meant “Can anyone suggest how I can get my child into yeshiva for the sake of his spiritual and emotional health when most don’t want us for financial reasons” and you heard “Can anyone help us come up with money to pay for tuition so my son can go to yeshiva”
Doesn’t the first statement encompass the second? I was thinking of writing a “poor Bubbelah” emotional message, but I’m much too practical and not like that. If they don’t want him for financial reasons, the most direct method would be to solve the financial issues if possible. Even the OP agreed with his paragraph starting We have tried multiple things to get more parnasa like driving Uber. He is looking for an idea. Squeezing more money out is an idea (which may or may not apply here).
I just don’t agree with you that allowing people to learn torah in a torah environment that they cant afford will have an impact on that. I see them as very very separate issues.
Not sure what you mean. Anyone is always welcome to be in beis medrash, and even possibly go to a shiur. It is being part of a registered high school and structured environment, eating food and using space that the Yeshiva needs to pay for, that is the problem. If the kid wants to live in the BM (and is not a truant, which he would be at 14) what could the Yeshiva say?
Depends how old the kids are, backyard camp works for 3 or 4 year olds, Does not work for 10 year olds
Mommy camp != backyard.
Camp is not a Luxury. The kids cannot sit around the house and be bored all summer
Mommy camp. Been there, done that. Perfectly acceptable.
or maybe they don’t feel like sharing it online, or maybe it is irrelevent because that isn’t really what their quesiton was.
The question was “Any suggestions?”. One way would be to crowdsource the budget so that savings can be found and paid to the Yeshiva. You don’t want it to be public? There are organizations that can help with squeezing more out of a budget.
considering tuition is about $13k-20k, Im not sure what i would be sending $60k for.
Four years of High School.
To your final point, I don’t disagree with you, as per my short post above (seven children, one bedroom). Had the OP said he was living on less than 40K, that would make more sense. Any Yeshiva Administrator who would see someone making 90K (Income < $100K) and only one tuition, would expect more than $200 a month. If denied, they would rightfully suspect that the parent is trying to stiff the school. Hence my suggestion to the OP to explain or invite the administrator into their apartment so he can see for himself that the family is living a life of Mistapek B’muat, even if the 1040 doesn’t show it.
Regarding cutting corners, If you go through my posts, I’m a strong advocate of giving to schools before anything else, recognizing there are those responsible people who just can’t hold up to the impossible burden of tuition.
That all being said, the Rabbaim need to eat and the electricity needs to be paid. We can’t have an automatic “right” of Yeshiva education without taxation powers. There are ways (Chazal had a good one in Kesubos 49B) to create additional funding from parents, but they are not politically correct. End result, Yeshivos need the money.
One more point: I am aware of a couple with seven children who live in a one bedroom apartment so that the father can stay in Klei Kodesh. The schools understand that type of sacrifice, and I hope they do for the OP as well.
The Rebbes dont get a tuition break, they get FREE tuition as do the children of the secretaries and other workers at the schools
Depends on the school.
Yes, you don’t get it. But, don’t worry, you’re not alone by any means.
I apologize, I really don’t see how the numbers work out. Perhaps if you explained to the school how little you really live with (no matter how much you actually show on your 1040), they will make an exception.
Syag: The OP said she/he makes “Income < $100K”. The median household income in the US is somewhere in the 54K area, and median salary about $44K. There are no tuition payments. As I said above, I simply don’t get it, i.e. where the money is going. Unless by “Income < $100K” they mean closer to the poverty limit, which is a different issue. I have to assume the OP has extreme and unusual circumstances that they are unwilling to disclose, but that will hurt them in justifying financial support.
as you have mentioned in past threads (at least i think it was you), family planning, which i never before had heard a frum yid suggest.
As DY can tell you, I consider the term “Frum” as a pejorative. 🙂
We can discuss “family planning” on a different thread, if the mods let you do it.
Finally, if you believe that the OP’s child is by definition deserving of a Yeshiva education, might I suggest that you either provide it or pay for it. I’m sure the Mods can get your spare $60,000 over to the OP.
Gavra_at_work: Unfortunately, those two options are off of the table. The mortgage debt to equity ratio (LTV) is at the maximum that the banks will allow. The days of 125% home equity loans are gone. — Retirement and college savings are also zero.
So where is all the money going? Huge student loans? Parental support? Had DWI and huge auto insurance bill? Lawsuit?
You should be making it plus saving, if you are making near 100K, with no tuition payments and living out of town.
nfgo3 – Two working parents. One who works in a Yeshiva, and whose salary goes to tuition (with tuition breaks offered to teachers, should be enough) and the other parent makes 60K – 80K as an accountant. Alternatively the wife can have a similar job.
Sorry, it was either edit or delete. – 29
Lives off the beaten path but walking distance to shuls in NYC, or out of town.
For example, looking at Zillow:
1621 E 51st street, Brooklyn – 449K
13 Merril Pl. Inwood NY – 310K
88 Livingston Ave, Staten Island, NY – 459K
225 Van Houten Ave, Passaic, NJ – 359K
There are many others. Yes, they are not Ave. J and 16th, but you can do it if you have the will to do so.
DerShteygingYid – Take out a second mortgage.
I understand that you make less than $100K (how much less) and have meticulous budgets. You can’t expect a Yeshiva to take someone who will need a lot of support (homeschooled children almost always do, even (and especially) if they are brilliant, because they are not used to a classroom environment) without getting paid for it. If you are making close to $100K (not $20K) and have no tuition payments, you have been better off financially than almost everyone else with four children who does pay tuition.
That’s reality.
Without knowing your exact budget, I can’t tell you where you can find money, but I personally know many people who live with more children on much less (closer to 20K). With only one tuition, you should be able to find more. Perhaps if you post your monthly budget people here can make suggestions. For example, many people paying tuition are not thinking about retirement. You may be putting away 10% or more in an IRA or 401K that can go to the Yeshiva.
theroshyeshiva – Once you are lying, why not just lie and say you will pay the whole thing, and give them a large donation on top of it?
Does anyone know whether it is safe to fly through Istanbul on the way to Eretz Yisroel?
People thought it was safe to be in the world trade center on 9/11.
The RBSO knows if it is safe, no one else.
Abba_S – Agree with akuperma. If you have an Israeli mortgage, you will want an Israeli account, even if you don’t live there. Your accountant will be able to figure out if you owe anything, and how much.
The big deal is when you “hide” the money, like the PM of Iceland who resigned.
P.S. How awesome is it the the Pirate party is going to win elections (if they happen) 🙂
nfgo3 :
Raising the price of something (oil, matzoh, unskilled labor) does not necessarily cause a decline in demand.
Sure, but any economist will tell you that if there are substitutes (and the good is not a Giffen good), the demand for the substitutes will rise and less of the good will be purchased. There is a substitute for unskilled labor called automation.
A question being debated is how much the minimum wage can be increased before the “some” substitution becomes a flood, so “many” workers lose their jobs (think substitution of labor, China and the rust belt).
The counter-argument for the “moral obligation” is that the government should raise the EIC, not the minimum wage.
Gavra, it increases profit by lowering costs.
Sorry meant lowering consumer costs, not input costs. I should have specified.
As far as your second point, they may be right. They may not. The only way we will know is if it is done, and we see what happens.
DY – but at $15 an hour…… I’ve seen plenty of automated soda dispensers (as an example), which didn’t exist 10 years ago. That may have lowered costs (or increased profit).
Or try this out for size. You go to Wal Mart, and have two options. Option 1 is to use the automated check-out counters. Option 2 is to use a person, but that entails a 20% surcharge.
There are many unpredictable possibilities of what might happen, and we won’t know until it does.
I am assuming that higher labor costs result in higher cost per item, because there is a limit to how much product one worker can produce (serve, etc.). This may not be true for every business but should be true for most.
Until the high cost of labor causes the initial start-up cost of automation to look reasonable, and the long term costs of inputs go down.
Sorry GAW, but leaving a toaster oven on for extended periods seems risky. Even if you use a timer for say 2 hour periods, I’d be wary. If you don’t have an oven Yom Tov, you can cook instead. Not the same but better to be safe.
Have done it often, but agree that it is better to be safe. Some counter top ovens are made for continual use, others aren’t (and are made with automatic shut-off features). And check your smoke detectors!!
One thing I don’t see mentioned is that people have different chumrahs for Pesach (for example, peeled tomatoes, no Gebrokts, or specific meat providers). You may want to ask your adult guests if they have any that you need to know, as not to discomfort them or yourself.
Good luck. Personally, simple roasts are easy and delicious, and don’t forget that you can cook on Yom Tov, so make sure your oven has a setting that it doesn’t go off after 12 hours. Otherwise you can use a new toaster oven that fits a 9 by 13.
Also, Ittisa swears (figuratively) by a wok, which can be used to make all sorts of Kosher for Pesach foods easily 🙂
HAVE your husband help. He can clean, vacuum & schlep. Do not try to do it yourself.
And cook, and grate, and peel, and shop…….. 🙂
Syag – If you can’t be honest enough to quote a full sentence then we don’t have much to say to each other. I’m sorry that you are so upset, and will try to make this my last post on the topic so not to upset you further.
Nisht – I agree with you the the entry barriers for anything that requires college are relatively high, as compared to most jobs that Americans have. Compared to the jobs of many Torahdik breadwinners (even a Rebbe who needs to teach Gemorah), the barriers are lower. Unfortunately, we have learned the some positions (specifically Law), which used to be a lock, do have comparatively lower barriers (just three years, LSATs and Bar after a BTL).
The investment in schooling is an interesting point, but once again, that would make the investment the barrier to entry, not the exam. That pits the years spent (depending on use of a program or online courses) vs. the effort needed to complete, and gives incentive for those who don’t believe they will pass to drop out (knowing they need to pass an exam).
Finally, I’m not in any way supporting the level of entry barrier with the pass rate. If that were the case, there would be way fewer people driving than OT, as the pass rate for the driving test is lower!! What I am saying is that exams can create strong entry barriers where none otherwise exist, which is my understanding of the actuarial exams (as DaMoshe shows). As you, me and DY point out, one can have a difficult exam with high pass rate, because the students have been winnowed out so that the passers are the only ones (in general) who will take the exams.
DY – And the comparative ease of schooling. Otherwise, there would be more Pharmacists and Dentists, both which can make their own hours relatively easily. It is a balance between the payments made (schooling) vs reward (potential salary).
Ad Kan.
An OT has 4 years graduate school plus internships and externships. There are significant early barriers.
I think that in addition to that, it is not possible to practice without passing the exams, similar to doctors.
You can work as an accountant with passing the CPA exams and many do so successfully. You can work as an actuary (see DaMoshe) without passing the exams.
You are focusing on the wrong data in determining why certain fields have higher pass rates than others.
Excellent. Let’s get to Tachlis.
I’m not discussing “pass rates” (as you, DY, and others point out) as the only barrier. There certainly are many barriers for OT (such as a college education, a Masters, etc.) that most people can not obtain. Nonetheless, the field is more saturated and less difficult than a Doctor (even if both have a 90% pass rate on the boards). The “boards” and “pass rates” response was directed at Syag who brought them up.
One can work as whatever they want to, they are not a CPA unless they passed the accounting exams and have the needed education. If they call themselves a CPA (or actuary possibly, I don’t know) without the qualifications they can be sued.
If you with to bring up the Masters as the barrier to entry, we can have that discussion (and how much of a barrier is it as compared to other barriers, such as CPA exams, the LSATs, or the need for starting capital for a small business).
Nisht:
Being that I never had such an idea that test scores are the only measure of barriers to entry (you made up a straw man), I agree as well 🙂
GAW,
The pass rate for the USMLE, which is required for all doctors practicing in the US is above 95%.
Your rule that a high pass rate is indicative of a low barrier field is hogwash. The facts completely disprove your “thesis”
The pass rate for Barbers and Cosmetologists is below 50%. That is not a high barrier field.
The pass rate for HHA’s, as low a barrier field as there is, is even lower than that in places.
Ta’anu Chitim V’Hodah lo B’Seorim.
GAW
“An exam with a 90+% pass rate is a formality, any way you put it.”
So this applies to the internal medicine and family medicine boards as well? Those are also formalities? Because initial pass rates for first time testers are consistently about 90%.
I don’t know the pass rates for other disciplines, I only looked at the first two that showed up in a quick search. I don’t have reason to believe the results are much different.
After all of the years and years of schooling, practical work, and self-selection (only those who are really interested take the exams (I don’t think they are needed to be a “doctor”))? Sure, that falls into the “Smichah” example.
An exam with a 90+% pass rate is a formality, any way you put it
An exam can be muderously difficult yet have a high pass rate. It depends on the barrier to get to the point of taking the exam.
Which would mean that the barrier is the key for success, not the exam. The exam would be the formality showing you passed the other barrier.
Take Smicha for example. If a Yeshiva only allowed people to take the exam after they’ve shown bekiuys in Basar V’Chalav Taaruvos, and have gotten a 90 or higher on all individual exams, and can be spot-tested on Shachs, then that is the hard part. The actual “exam” (where you get formally tested) may not be significantly difficult, but may still be important for formalities.
Also, as you pointed out, more than 99% of the population can’t make a leining. Does that make a Gemorah test “murderously difficult”?
Why is it an insult to be in a low-barrier field?
I think if someone works very hard for something and the attitude is, “no big deal, anybody could do that”, that could be insulting.
As with everything else, if you work hard and are at the top of your field, you will do well. Take law, for example. Plenty of people (seemingly nowdays) can go to a school and pass the bar, but not everyone can go to a top school or become successful in the field. That takes hard work.
(equal opportunity insulter).
Syag specifically mentioned the boards….
that was one component to respond to the insult that it was a low barrier field.
…which seem to only be a formality (at least for OT)
a formality? wow. i guess letting you know you are not only uninformed but insulting a whole group of people isn’t enough to deter you from continuing that way.
An exam with a 90+% pass rate is a formality, any way you put it.
I apologize if that bothers you, and await statistics regarding how it is “murderous” to get into a program or other barriers to entry. I’d love to be wrong, just show me why.
Why is it an insult to be in a low-barrier field?
Ummm…. thats LITERALLY what we learned about when I was in college. Along with lots of other material I would never need to know in life.
As one of my Rabbaim (who went to College for a semester or two) used to say, Clown U. 🙂
Obviously it depends on where you go, and if you focus on a goal (and not partying or English Lit).
I think you missed my point.
A high pass rate doesn’t mean there isn’t an entrance barrier; that barrier may very well be long before the stage of taking exams.
I agree, see my post/question to Syag if there are other real barriers. Syag specifically mentioned the boards….
…which seem to only be a formality (at least for OT).
gavra – what makes it difficult to pass the actuarial exam, that most fail?
With Syag’s allowance (based on the prior comment):
I would think it is the difficult Math (Duh!), but you need to ask an actuary. I only brought it as an example because someone mentioned it earlier in the thread.
gaw – wow, pretty insulting comment.
Don’t mean to insult, but the field IS saturated. (shrug) OT/PT/Speech are the fields of choice for Bais Yaakov girls, and they seem to get into programs. From the outside, and knowing girls (and guys) who have done it, they aren’t difficult fields to get into.
If you could give me specific figures (for example, 70% of those who enter the program fail out before the boards, or 50% of those who want to get into a program don’t get into any program because they fail the entry exam), I’m all ears (to quote Mickey Mouse and H. Ross Perot). Until then, a 90%+ pass rate is a formality.
What are the percentages for actuarial boards?
Also, not sure percentages reflect difficulty. Say 90% passed Dirshu’s exams – that doesn’t mean it’s easy, and a huge percentage of the overall population would fail.
43.3% for the first (easiest?) exam from the Society of Actuaries (as per their website, latest exam). There are many exams, someone who is in the field could tell you more.
As I said, even if the exams are difficult, they don’t create a barrier to entry, which is the consideration being discussed. I can’t speak for Dirshu or their “pass” rates.
Gavra……….
don’t confuse Accountant with CPA. Many accountants don’t have degrees and pass exams, they work for private firms,
Good point, but I (personally) would describe the position as a bookkeeper or maybe a comptroller. That (seemingly) requires connections (to people with firms (real estate?) who have that need) vs. the certification.
Out of curiosity, would you say your nephew makes more, less or the same as a CPA working for a top 100 firm?
Those jobs with lower barriers to entry (… OT/PT/Speech
I’m guessing you never took those boards…
Nope. Judging by the NBCOT pass rate for Masters OT programs in NY (90%+ for everyone!!!), OT boards (as an example) can’t possibly be difficult. Even if they are, they don’t create a barrier to entry.
You can say that about any career. “If being a lawyer is such a good job, it will become saturated.” “If being a psychologist is such a good job, it will become saturated.” “If being a website developer is such a good job, it will become saturated.”
This is only true for the women’s fields, not the men’s and here’s why –
men’s talents are very limited so they can only go into fields they are good at. Women, on the other hand, can do anything, so if a field proves to be good for frum people, they grab it. that’s why the womens fields are all saturated (OT, Speech, nursing, ABA etc)
**snicker**
But since women only work at it part time…. it doubles the number of jobs available, so the jobs never saturate. (jk)
The serious answer is that many jobs have a barrier to entry, which keeps them relatively open. Actuarial science was mentioned, and is a good example as most people can’t pass the exams, not matter how hard they try. A doctor needs to go through the training, which takes many years. Even an accountant needs to pass exams, and work long hours during busy season.
Those jobs with lower barriers to entry (law with a BTL, nursing, OT/PT/Speech, computer graphics, etc.) do become saturated, and it is difficult for those who are not at the top (via product or schooling) to obtain positions, especially (from what I hear) in the NY/NJ area.
Submission to terrorist threats?
Please list some Yeshivish job options (little to no college, short hours, tznius environment)
If anyone comes up with anything, please let us all know so we can all sign up.