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Mammele – I read the Hamodia article (page 42 of Hamodia’s digital edition from Wednesday), and Prof. Helfand (who I don’t know) agrees it needs to be scrutinized and then decided based on the law. He’s quite evenhanded by discussing the merits of both sides.
I’m more concerned with Zwiebel’s comments, where he expects special treatment due to his religious beliefs. That is exactly what the Aino Yehudim see happening, and therefore see the Jews as a bunch of lawbreakers who use their block vote (and monetary) power to corrupt politicians and hurt others.
If Satmar would create their own pool, and open exclusively to membership (to Satmar members in good standing), that would be private but still allow gender segregation (even with a strict reading that no one would begin to interpret the law as meaning; that reading would also disallow gender based bathrooms and locker rooms, so it is quite a red herring).
Mammele – If it turns out the law was not broken (and I happen to agree with you that it was not), then you are correct that there is no reason why the policy should not continue.
From Title 8:
(b) Notwithstanding the foregoing, the provisions of this subdivision shall not apply, with respect to age or gender, to places or providers of public accommodation where the commission grants an exemption based on bona fide considerations of public policy
What I’m concerned with is that the law is ignored because of the “institutional political clout”. And you hit it on the head with to whom the politicians feel more beholden. My hope is that either way, this goes before a judge so that the law decides, not some politician looking for a bloc vote.
Finally, the very real argument is that we as Yeraim do have the ability to join all of these activities, including public schools. The fact that we don’t is our own choice, so we can’t say that those services are not “ours” just because we happen not to use them. That being said, there is something wrong when certain programs are geared (or end up being used) by a small section of the population, especially if there is a religious component which would otherwise not be allowed (see Christie’s “Grant” to BMG which was rightfully blocked by a judge).
If the city nixes it it’ll be symptomatic of a bigger issue, namely that we’re the ones being wronged when it comes to city services, not the other way around
Very funny, especially after all the work done for priority 5 & 7 vouchers :p, which is yet another excuse for the Aino Yehudim to say we Yidden get away with things by cozying up to politicians.
Mammele – A certain “Rabbi” got up and asked his Kehilah in public (paraphrasing):
“It used to be, that even thought there were laws, the politicians looked the other way from our group breaking the law. Why do certain people have to shine a light that we get away with what others don’t, and the government should leave us alone?”
This got distributed throughout mass media, and created a huge Chillul Hashem.
We have to ask ourselves the same question here. If we are “breaking the law”, is it worth a few people swimming (of all activities) and the likelihood of a Chillul Hashem? It is bad enough, with the recent NYC police scandal (another Frum Yid was arrested yesterday), that the Aino Yehudim believe that Yidden break the law, and the politicians turn a blind eye. Is this one worth it?
P.S. If there are medical reasons, that may be Doche Tznius concerns, AYLOR.
P.P.S. If it is “REALLY important”, there should be a fundraiser. It would be more important than all the collecting done for Satmar Birkur Cholim, no?
Mammele – All you needed to say was that those who want a pool is a small minority of Satmar, and that small minority (who somehow have big political clout) has no money to create a pool, as the Satmar Organizations have better things to do with their money.
As this isn’t a big deal, even for Satmars, and will only affect a few people if the pool stops being gender segregated, I don’t think this is worth the time people are putting into it.
Your post does raise a good question though, and I don’t know the answer: Why do the Satmars, as communities, not provide “community centers” for their members? It would seem that these communities are most in need of such centers, as (mostly in Williamsburg) apartment dwellers.
GAW: Williamsburg is not exclusively Satmar, there are 2 Satmars in Williamsburg, and Satmar has less than zero interest in building a pool facility. More likely they’d oppose it. So your whole technical scenario is moot.
Please explain to me why Satmar (or Satmars, if you prefer) have no interest in building a pool, but feel the need to pressure politicians into creating separate hours so that the Satmar community can use a pool? I don’t understand; either they have use for a pool or they do not.
Personally, it is sad that you think the Chassidim in the area (Aharonis, Zalmanis, and other sects) couldn’t all get together and build something that could be used by all of them.
Since even Jewish stores are sued for their dress code in NYC, if the rules of gender separation are ruled discriminatory, even a private pool could run into legal issues here.
Just to be technical, a store is a public accommodation. A private pool belonging to Satmar would not be, so they could invite whomever they want. They could run into trouble if they open the pool to the paying public instead of holding it for the exclusive use of the Satmar sects.
from Long Island – HAFTR is a prep school, like Ramaz, and the tuition ($24K+ back in 2009) reflects that. I don’t think (and I could be wrong) you would see the same issues by Rabbi Bender’s school Darchei Torah (which is also in the Five Towns), or any other “Yeshivish” type school.
I’ll agree with CT on this one. Having what you have worked for, and buying top quality so that it lasts is not “materialistic”. It seems to me that someone owning a Bugaboo stroller (because it is “pas nisht” not to have one) and being on food stamps, is more “materialistic” than someone who owns a decade old luxury car.
In addition, since CT does live out of town, his costs are way lower than “in town”, allowing him for additional disposable income. In many aspects, living in the Hipster neighborhoods of Williamsburg, Washington Heights and the Lower East Side is also a “materialistic” action.
The “magic number” they came up with for NY for household income is about 100k.
IIRC, Rabbi Bender has said in the Yated Chinuch forum that anyone making less than $150K in town is under large stresses to make ends meet. Especially with more than two children and a pet.
I thought Lakewood was larger than Baltimore
Lakewood is part of the NYC area, just like Teaneck, Passaic, Monsey or White Plains.
Knowing NYC, a few transgender individuals will make it their business to be there during the Noshim only hours, and the Chassidim will no longer push to have Noshim only times in a public pool.
:p
How about Rabbi Moshe Weinberger from Aish in the Five Towns? He’s a “Neo Chassidic” Rabbi. That way you don’t have to go with the rest of the culture if you don’t want.
Try Tein-Li-Chow’s Spicy Chicken Peanut Salad 🙂 As a guy who likes peanuts, it’s not expensive and really good.
Second all those who mentioned Romanian.
Gavra, I don’t think every filter offers that.
Also, I wonder if it becomes unfiltered, or reverts (sic) to a free version, or the phone stops working for data.
That would be important, no? There is sufficient volume for them to force the market if they needed and wanted to do so.
$0 for profit; the entire cost was for the filter. The filter has a monthly fee of about $5, the entirety of which goes to the filtering company. She must be annualizing the cost.
Stupid question – Why are they installing a filter that has recurring fees, so that if the fees are not paid next year coverage will fall off? Why not choose a company that has a one time flat fee?
ZD – Rebbetzin Jungreis is Modern Orthodox. Not a great example.
A better question might be why Rebbitzen Batsheva Kaniefsky insisted on pictures of women in her Artscroll biography (which everyone can look at and ogle). Then again, Rebbitzen Batsheva Kaniefsky may also be Modern Orthodox, you can’t be sure.
Gemarah Gitten 90a,
??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????
You mean
??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ??????
So you agree! The Isha will be allowed to go out once or twice a month (as per the Rambam) to visit the parents or other relatives, wearing a Burqa, so that the Isha’s body or face doesn’t end up in a picture on the internet for men to ogle.
If that is not what you were referring to, please explain.
GAW, we do the ??? ?? ???, mentioned in Gitten.
Can you expand on this point? I don’t know what you mean or to which Gemorah you are referring.
Little Froggie – So you are Modah to me that Noshim should wear Burqas the one or two times a month they go out to visit their parents. After all, a Bas Yisroel who is a Bas Melech should not be less Tzanuah than a Muslim!, and ?????? ???? is written explicitly in the Torah, we need to create more Gedarim from Arayos.
Phil – The Prusta American terms WI*E and D*UGHT*R should not be used either. Lashon HaKodesh is a Magen from Arayos, and is spoken by Chazal to be a Lashon Naki that doesn’t have Prusta language. As such, only the terms “Eishes” and “Bas” should be used.
Sam2, that’s what I see from where I come from. I understand were human beings and davka because that we shouldn’t have pictures of women online. Maybe you will get happy to see the smiling kallah and chassan, but that picture may excite others in a different way.
Plus a kallah belongs to her chosson. I don’t know…it’s just not good to posting pictures online at all in my opinion.
You should not be sending pictures to friends either (unless perhaps you belong to your friends?). In fact, you should not be taking digital pictures at all. Haven’t we learned anything from the Dor Yeshorim video?
Once it is out of your hands, anything can happen, and you will have no one to blame but yourself.
kollelman – Aderaba, that is my point. Schools have the power (and have established) that they can look at your bank account and medical information, as a condition of you entering your children into that school. If you don’t like it, send somewhere else.
kollelman – As you point out, the child or parent who wants to see what they shouldn’t can go to the corner store, buy a prepaid smartphone, and look at whatever they want. School or no school, filter or no filter, smartphone or flip phone.
Filters work as a “first line” of defense, so that a momentary lapse doesn’t result in a breach, as well as unintended viewing. They are not meant for a teenager or other enticed to the Dark Side.
Finally, if schools can dictate lengths of skirts (well past tznius by any definition), Snoods vs. Sheitels vs. Hats, and Kollel vs. working, they can dictate whatever they want. Unfortunately, your assertion in the middle of your third paragraph is not completely correct.
I find it interesting that it lists the chasan as “Ploni ben Ploni,” but the kallah is just “bas Ploni.” I’ve never seen a wedding invitation that doesn’t list the kallah’s first name, but maybe I travel in the wrong circles.
Obviously. Saying “Bas Ploni” re-enforces the correct mindset in Klal Yisroel, that Noshim’s worth only exists as linked to a male.
Joe – writing the word W-I-*-E is NOT Tzanuah. Please use the term “Ishto” (as in “VaYelech Manoach Acheri Ishto”) instead.
Its untzinuyusdic for any picture of a woman to be online.
Why do you say that? And if the reason is because you don’t want men to see you, why do you not wear a Burqa, or better yet, not step outside, ever?
Just curious.
Why the lack of Tznius on Internet Simcha sites?!
Same reason “Why the lack of Tznius on people’s walls”, where many people show pictures of themselves in an intimate pose with their spouse. The internet is an extension of one’s wall.
Tell the girls who aren’t getting married to do something instead of sitting at the phone. Go join a Kollel and become the next Devorah HaNeviah, or Nechama Leibowitz (or Maharat, take your pick).
blubluh – Why should there be any financial burden of shidduchim (other than the wedding, and that can be done simply)?
In the US it isnt any different , if frum people would move to Rochester, Michigan or Scranton housing would be cheaper
Housing was #3 on your list, I agree with you that is less of an issue. Tuition is the biggie.
Its a problem in israel too, Do you know how much real estate costs there?
Only because Charaidim expect the parents to buy them an apartment next door. If they would live in Arad, or even get a job (Chas V’Shalom) and buy after they can afford it (like everyone else in the world), it would not be a problem.