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And what is your conclusion on the question?
That it is God’s Decision, not mine to make.
Joe – Your opinion was a foregone conclusion before the thread started. You can ask your LOR (if that isn’t yourself) if you have any questions.
So it seems NYC will be doing the right thing.
Agreed. Boruch Hashem.
Absolutely terrible, if the facts pan out as the media claims. That is what investigations are for, but there should be a thorough one to see if the do.
If Trump had half a brain, he would take the victim’s side before Hillary does, even conditionally so that he could back out if the facts clear up. Fits perfectly into the “system is rigged” viewpoint.
He doesn’t have half a brain.
gavra no need to explain
I understood the words, but don’t understand the relevance to the discussion. Anyway, if you don’t care, neither will I.
gavra: How is not putting money in the meter different halachicly than not sending money to the IRS?
Who says it isn’t? I’m not enough of a rabbinical contortionist to disprove one way or the other. After all, where there is a rabbinic will, there is a halachic way to obtain Gelt 🙁
Clear examples of “Stealing” from the government would be taking benefits where one is not eligible (e.g. due to money earned off the books). Another example is taking government funding that is earmarked for a specific purpose and using it for something else (for example, E-rate).
I said “stealing”. If you don’t consider the action “stealing”, then think of a different action.
There is a big difference between not modest to outward beastly behavior
Huh?
Which issurei d’oraisa apply to not feeding the meter when parking.
1: Assumes not paying is stealing
2: Assumes Dina D’Malchusa would apply
3: Assumes we are discussing feeding the meter
Who is worse, a ???? ??????? or an Orthoprax?
Who is worse, a Gerer Chossid who follows his Commandant over the wishes of his wife, or someone who eats cheeseburgers?
Who is worse, Neturei Karta or Open Orthodox?
Who is worse, someone who steals from the government or someone who consistently misses Zman Kriyas Shema?
Who is worse, someone who convinces others not to vaccinate, or someone who convinces others to go to college?
🙂
Move for the thread to be deleted.
(and I’m still wondering how it got approved)
Ok Joseph when you start your own country you can make the rules long live the king.
Second this.
In fact, in “Liberaltown USA” (also known as NYC, home of Stonewall national monument), they purposely shove immorality in the faces of impressionable youth. That is their religion. If you don’t like it, you can vote with your feet. Perhaps you want to try a Theocracy, like New Square, Kiryas Joel, Iran or Israel.
Do yeshivas typically give breaks if you send multiple children to the same school?
No. Seriously, if you are first trying to figure it out after you have “babies” (plural), you are mostly too late.
Eizehu Chacham HaRoeah Es Hanolad.
Buy a house now, claim poverty when the time comes and get a scholarship. They won’t reject you just because you have no money.
We wouldn’t say the Rishon is wrong,although we c/would call
them aberrant
Why not just call them “a be normal” and be done with it.
You are trying to have your cake and eat it too, and it isn’t working.
Either give the Rishonim full deference, and allow for Shittos like Rabbanu Avraham Ben HaRambam, Iben Ezra, the Rambam himself, etc. and that people should follow them. Or admit that they are sometimes wrong regarding secular knowledge, just like Tosfos argues with Rashi regarding the direction of the Tigris river (which we can see which direction it flows), or Tosfos was deficient in mathematical knowledge of the Pythagorean Theorem.
By being “Poseach al shtei si’ifim”, you make no sense.
We wouldn’t say the Rishon is wrong ( unless the position stated is an aberrant one by their own standards)
That “unless” was a hole large enough to drive a tractor-trailer through it, and I’ll take that as agreement.
Agudah constituents in America, Chasidim in America and Yeshivish in America as well as Agudah constituents in Israel, Chasidim in Israel and Yeshivish in Israel would all self-identify as a Chareidi/UO on a survey, if asked.
You assume. I say they would identify as Modern Orthodox, as they will be asked if they use electricity. 🙂
Chareidism is indeed an import from Israel
The term only started receiving usage (often pejoratively) in the ’90s
Probably accurate enough. No idea about the hat (or not), or if a Straimel or Spodik counts as well.
Gavra
Correct,
And when push come to shove , you should heed it l’chumra.
Unless you could somehow explain the sugya in a way that would obviate the need for the postulate to be an absolute
So you advocate the “Rabbi Slifkin” approach, where even though we know the Rishon is wrong, we still follow it L’chumrah because that is the way the Halacha was paskened?
It is Time for Truth – I have no idea what you mean to say. It is a given that the Pythagorean Theorem is accurate.
“Yeshivish” and “Chasidish” are both grouped under the “Chareidi” moniker, in the popular usage.
Says you, and the political Agudah who wants to self-identify with “Charaidim” in Israel. For most of the Agudah members, they would not be identified as Charaidi if they lived in Israel.
The Agudah, both in America (i.e. Rabbi Avi Shafran) and in Israel (Degel HaTorah), have often subscribed to self-identification under the term.
You’re echoing my point that it is identification for political purposes, not reflecting the reality of what they believe. As I said above, Avi Shafran would not be considered a Charaidi in Israel, and would be run out of Eidah Charaidus territory if he lived there.
But sure, if you want to define “Charaidi” as “Anyone who keeps the Torah who isn’t a Zionist”, then I’ll define MO as “Anyone who keeps the Torah who uses electricity”. That way everyone can be MODERN.
🙂
Gavra, actually the perush is Rashbam not Rashi.
Oops, forgot.
In any case, this is not Halacha but Geometry.
Joe would tell you that doesn’t make a difference.
The term has evolved, and has come to mean basically anyone who is not Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist.
So you argue, I believe you are incorrect. That is why there is the terms “Yeshivish”, “Chassidish”, “Sephardi”, etc.
Perhaps a small group in Israel sees an advantage of widening their umbrella for fundraising and political purposes, but I don’t see that as the truth.
To quote (or perhaps paraphrase) R’ Ahron Feldman: “One argues with Chazal is not a heretic, just an arrogant fool.” I think the ame can be said about most people today arguing with the Rishonim and Achronim.
I argue that when calculating the disgonal of a triangle, you use the Pythagorean Theorem of “A^2 + B^2 = C^2” (for a right triangle).
Rashi and Tosfos disagree (Bava Basra 102a, Dibur Hamaschil U’Kigon).
Am I an “arrogant fool” for doing so (instead of other reasons)?
The terms current usage was initially born from the name of the Eidah HaChareidus.
Which is a new anti-Zionist movement. So I believe you’ve answered the question.
akuperma – and not everyone is formally dressed all of the time, unless you are the overseer or the camp commandant. Those who work wear work clothes, and work clothes means (in many situations) jeans.
It is the aversion to manual labor, the superiority, and the social bubble that he (and others in his society) live in that makes someone say something so arrogant, stupid, conceited and Racial. And that is why Denim Jeans are “chukas hagoy”, because they are associated with manual labor, which Juden, Southerners and Germans have Untermenchen do for them, but would never do themselves.
Chazal in many places disagree, but we are very far from Chazal.
DY – No Shaychus. As ZD pointed out, even a Melech wears jeans when they are appropriate wear.
My perception is that jeans are the epitome of casual and common, the exact opposite of formal.
Because you would never stoop to work in a garden, mix concrete, or build a house. Certainly not mine ore, or drill for oil, or quarry rock. That is for Untermenschen, not those with “Royal blood”.
I spit on your “Royal blood”.
Being of Royal blood, and as a representative of The King, my father, I would never wear denim jeans.
Rabbi Dov Fischer posted an article entitled “Random Thoughts on Another Flawed Survey of Orthodox Jews” on Cross-Currents yesterday (06/29/16). It is a must read. Wow! He hit the nail on the head, as they say. He’s a California Young Israel rov and a member of the RCA Executive Committee.
All surveys are flawed. See: Brexit.
Charaidim (Quakers in English) are members of a group of religious Christian movements which is known as the Religious Society of Friends in Europe, Australia, New Zealand and parts of North America. (Wikipedia)
So yes, it is a movement.
????????, ??????-???-???, ??????????, ???-????????; ??????? ???????? ??????????? ???????????, ??????? ?????? ???????? ??????–????????? ??????????????, ????? ????????.
Yeshayahu 66
Personally I think we need more focus on penimius and less judging in Klal Yisroel.
Interesting you bring this issue up (Hijack!).
In Mishpacha Magazine (Family First?) the past two weeks, there were two letter writers. The first noted that the “Tznius” classes focus on clothing, which creates a focus by women on clothing, even if Tznius. She said that women are much better off (and the person giving the lecture agreed) if instead of having “Tznius meetings”, they would learn Torah, thereby showing the beauty of Hashem and being a Jew.
The next week, another letter writer completely disagreed. She said she gives a class on Tznius clothing every friday night, and how beautiful it is. She also recommended R. Falk’s book on Tznius as showing how critical it is to focus on clothing.
Thoughts?
Why specifically denim jeans? What exactly gives them this status?
People who wear jeans usually w*rk, which everyone knows is a four letter word and Assur.
gavra_at_w*rk
P.S. Who is the “many”?
Darchei sends you a receipt of what you pay for the dinner, they don’t deduct their cost so I don’t see a reason why I should, especially since I don’t know the cost
Interesting, because my Yeshiva does state the cost for the meal on the receipt. Perhaps Darchei is different in that the dinner is in the Yeshiva, so there is no set “cost” that they can assign to the dinner?
shtusim – No disagreement here. Just to add something that struck me recently, in the Yated Chunich Forum. The parent wants to take the sons out of Yeshiva to visit his mother (the children’s grandmother) for Mother’s day (or Father’s day, I forget), but thinks the Yeshiva won’t let, so he lied and said they had a doctor appointment.
Rabbi Bender’s response: You should have told the truth, and if the Yeshiva said they are not allowed to leave, take them out anyway and find your children a new Yeshiva, as obviously the Yeshiva is not teaching your children good Middos.
Awesome!!
GAW: if they can’t pay tuition, why not set up a tuition fund? Why wait till they make Chasunah?
My guess is (knowing from the Yeshiva in my area) that they already have a scholarship fund.
Rockaway Resident – There you go. There may already be enough there.
What do YOU think is a better use?
Truthfully? To pay for weddings for people who the school knows don’t have any money, because they can’t pay tuition! Teachers could certainly be included if they are needy.
Call it a Darchei fund for needy members of the Darchei family. Seeing how Rabbi Bender does care, it wouldn’t shock me if that is on the table.
In addition, they could (and might be doing so) subsidize simchos in the Yeshiva, so that it costs less for people who need to make a simcha but can’t afford to do so.
DaasYochid – There are many issues with the NY get law.
The guy can sign that there are no restrictions, if he believes that lack of a get is not a restriction and the Mesader is no longer alive to say otherwise.
In addition, she will have to pay the Kesubah if she acts under the NY law.
Finally, having the courts enforce a Get brings serious questions of Get Meusah, as the court is unable (legally) to enforce the actions of a Bais Din to provide a religious document.
I’m thinking of starting an organization that provides guidance, resources, and comfort to Orthodox Recalcitrant Husbands.
How about Jews for Jesus? Jews for Adultery? Jews for (name the Avairah here)? Don’t they deserve some love as well?
A quarter of the funds ($100,000) were given by one individual. That is truly amazing. Keep it up!!!
I imagine Charidy has people like that set up before the campaign so they can keep their 100% success rate.
Mazel Tov to the Yeshiva. I’m sure the teachers could use the money, just like almost everyone else in Klal Yisroel who worries how to make overpriced and unnecessary simchos. I just wish that together with the campaign, they could implement ideas that would get costs under control (or stop from skyrocketing as much), such as using the Yeshiva as a free catering hall for faculty (if it isn’t already used as such).
🙁 (worried)
This is not true, I just won’t name names.
Same thing.
Another alternative is what just was done for Yonkers, which was just awarded $2 Billion in aid from the state. And that school district was in worse shape in every way, fiscally, scholastically and programmatically.
Its much easier politically to give money to fund public schools than to fund busing for Yeshivos, especially after the missteps from East Ramapo.
So for the critical pieces of the bill:
1: Monitors are now required by law, they are not going away.
2: Monitors will attend all board meetings, nothing will be private
3: The money goes directly to public school children, not a penny for Yeshivos or busing, and they only get the money to restore services 🙁
4: To get the money, the board needs to come up with a long term plan on how to break even
5: East Ramapo only gets the money when the Commissioner receives evidence of compliance
6: (The big one)
The board of education shall make adjustments to the proposed budget consistent with any recommendations made by the commissioner.
So the NY commissioner has veto power over the board of ed, with the added stick that if the board doesn’t follow through, they are breaking the law.
All in all, I understand why Hamodia is claiming a win for the Yeshivos (the monitors can’t veto, only recommend to the commissioner), but if you actually read it…..
P.S. It is certainly possible that Cuomo will veto the bill.
Mods – please allow the text only link to the bill language.
. (???).
Is this a “Lammed” as in “Lo Alayinu”, or some other abbreviation? Not sure why “Lo Alayinu” would apply, although “Chas M’Lihazkir” might.
I suspect the real reason why people make snarky remarks about Daas Torah is because they believe that they know at least as much as “some old out of touch guy sitting his little room”. (???).
BS”D
Even Daas Yochid won’t admit that anyone has Da’as Torah. Perhaps you, Mod 29, would like to explain what Da’as Torah is, who has it, and why people should listen to proclamations that claim to be “Da’as Torah” instead of their own Rov?
Personally, that is what I see as the main “Da’as Torah” concern, the globalization and subsequent restriction expected of the rest of the Klal because of “Da’as Torah”. If my Rov decides he needs to ask a specific prat to his Rebbe, and his Rebbe needs to ask a Gadol, then the trail moves back and my Rov answers based on his understanding of my personal circumstances (which he knows well), then Kol HaKavod.
I see no reason to listen to grand proclamations made over the phone that anyone who uses the internet should have their children thrown out of schools, or that vaccines are a hoax, whether those handlers claim the person who said it has Da’as Torah or not.
However, if you want to tell me (as Rav Moshe seems to write in his teshuvos) that Da’as Torah (similar to DY) is the ability to answer halachic shailos without personal negius, both from the economic, social and political spheres, I’ll agree to the concept, but you will have a hard time finding anyone today without such negiyos.
In East Ramapo, do the Frum and public school population live in (basically) different areas?
Which person?
For medical issues, a doctor. For legal issues, a lawyer. For political issues, a liar 🙂
You are the one who said you won’t mention specific people.
If daas Torah means extending what you ask a talmid chochom into areas beyond Torah, then the same way, despite not having a R’ Akiva Eiger or R’ Moshe Feinstein today, we still find someone who is a talmid chochom to ask our shailas in Torah to, we would also find a talmid chochom to ask our non Torah shailas.
Why? We don’t (and didn’t) ask Rav Moshe where our donkeys were when we lost them.
So you too are saying that ZDs claim is specious.
I can’t comment on cars, but if we need to go further, I don’t think anyone asks their Rov if they should have Chex or Cheerios for breakfast.
Your “valid” rejoinder means that there’s nobody more capable of making klal (or even prat) decisions more than you?
Why is that person “pseudo” Da’as Torah, vs. an expert on the subject matter?
???? ????? ?????? ????? doesn’t give capabilities to someone who doesn’t have them. If not, we would be discussing Nevuah, not Da’as Torah. All ???? ????? ?????? ????? means is that the Sanhedrin is law, no matter the qualifications, not that Yiftach, Rava, or Rabbi Amital is a Navi (or has Ruach HaKodesh, or Da’as Torah, or other capabilities) like Shmuel was.
However if a person asks if he should get a Chevy, Toyota or Honda as opposed to an Infiniti or Mercedes, that may very well fall under what is appropriate to ask of a Rov.
That is a Tznius and Tzedaka question, and appropriate even without the concept of Da’as Torah
Gun Control – Shoot anyone found committing a crime with a gun.
I will reiterate that I don’t want to discuss specific people.
That’s fine, but then a valid rejoinder is that even if there is such a concept of Da’as Torah, no one has it.
So it’s like a Yogi (not Berra) or Bhikkhu (or Bhikkhuni)
I suppose to someone who doesn’t believe in the Torah, yes.
What is the difference if all Da’as Torah means is that you have a detached opinion with some specific knowledge of a topic? Why wouldn’t a Vulcan doctor have more Da’as Torah than a Rabbi?
Whom to vote for can fall into either category.
Dodged the question. When someone who would be considered “Da’as Torah” (such as Rabbis Auerbach or Kotler) say you must vote for a specific person, that would be them telling you this falls under Da’as Torah.
You also left out an extremely important middle area – questions which may not technically be halachah shailos, but are important to Yiddishkeit.
Such as whom to vote for, which you refuse to answer the question.
If someone learns properly, it should refine his thinking and emotions so that he can answer a question with seichel and objectivity. A true gadol does not allow bias to inform his decision, and has insight (to varying levels, depending on the level of gadlus) that a hedyot doesn’t.
So it’s like a Yogi (not Berra) or Bhikkhu (or Bhikkhuni) or perhaps more like a Vulcan (think Spock), who can make decisions based on logic and (Torah) knowledge and not allow emotions or biases to taint their opinions.
DY – What is Da’as Torah?
For example:
HaRav Shmuel Auerbach: Voting Gimmel is a Vote Assisting One to Perform an Avreira
How about BMG (including the Roshei Yeshiva) endosing Corzine over Christie.
Out Of The Mailbag – Lakewood Should Be Endorsing Chris Christie
Da’as Torah or not?
Did the letter writer have the right to an “opinion”?
Finally, does Rabbi Avi Weiss have Da’as Torah? How about HaGaon Shaul Lieberman?
GAW, can you please inform me what is the Israeli Chareidi view on what to do after learning.
Learn more 🙂
It seems to me that this is the standard Yeshivish viewpoint, learn as much as you can. If you can’t learn anymore, then choose a kosher derech outside of learning.
The Israeli Charaidim never accepted that view. That is one of the biggest differences between CHUL Yeshivish and Israeli Charaidi.
Another difference, as american_yerushalmi and ubiquitin both point out, is whether “Da’as Torah” means that the Gadol has the only and final say, and no one has the right to an opinion or even respectfully offer comment. Charaidim adopted the Chassidish view that the Rebbe’s word is final, always correct by definition, and no discussion is allowed, while the Yeshivish have adopted the Litvish view.
Mammele – You’re the one who brought the idea again. I’m just trying to explain why their interpretation is flawed at best.
As you said (or quoted):
Like I said earlier, I hope a judge decides in favor. I would if I were the judge.