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I have to agree with Avi K. The government is in no way chayiv to pay anyone a red cent (or brass Agurah). In the times of Chazal, they would be denouncing people who depended on Tzedaka or government handouts (which mostly didn’t exist) in the streets for not taking care of their children. Feel lucky that Amoraim such as Rav Chisda are not responding, as they would be even stronger about it.
?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????
Kesubos 49B
So no, you do not have to be Mochel, as he did nothing wrong Al Pi Halacha.
Dr. Hall: I don’t know (and don’t care) if she is innocent or not. I can still be pleased that someone who did not commit a violent crime and has (hopefully) learned to be more careful in the future is united back with her family. Even more so since she is Jewish, and therefore a shitckel “Mishpacha”.
ZD: Please don’t use the term schv… Thanks.
That being said, it would depend if the crime was violent or not, if there was remorse, as well as other factors. If it was the same situation I would be pleased that we are no longer paying for a non-violent criminal to stay in our federal “hotels”.
Since this has become working vs. learning:
Anyone who can pay full tuition and remain in Kollel should do so.
Anyone who can’t pay full tuition while remaining in Kollel is a Safek Ganav. You have to ask a Halachic Shailah to someone outside the system (I would suggest a pulpit Rov) to see if you should remain in Kollel and take Tzedaka from others against their will, or go work. (this doesn’t apply in Israel, where the Army is an additional wild card).
And as I said earlier, Lakewood and the Eretz Yisroel situation is the reason (call it an “unintended consequence”) whay many frum yidden are not Machshiv Lomei Torah and Limud HaTorah, which then stretches to the Torah itself CV.
Finally, Ezehu Chacham HaRoeh Es Hanolad.
P.S. I agree with Harotzehbilumshmo that most Kollel guys are learning. On the other side of the coin, I rarely see guys remain in Kollel (and not move on to Klei Kodesh or the outside workforce) once they need to support their family (and it may be due to being “out of town”, and the long term learners move to Eretz Yisroel or Lakewood.)
ZD: My line, not the Mod’s.
Thanks.
“I do not know if the letter is real or fake,”
“Read the list the R’Y of BMG is on it, If you dont consider him a gadol , I cant help you “
So was a Rosh Yeshiva of REITS.
Absolute undeniable proof that the letter is a forgery.
Any Profession that has too weak barriers to entry gets undermined and loses respect.
Which is one of the main problems in Eretz Yisroel, where there is a lack of Kavod HaTorah & Kavod Shomayim even by those who are frum (and probably even by those who are Charaidi).
I once heard in a shiur from Rav Tzvi Aryeh Rosenfeld in which he discussed that if a niddah looks into a mirror that nobody has ever used before then it will get a blood spot on it
To go totally off topic, why is this not the same as other zany ideas that other religions have (and we make fun of them for it for being so outlandish), such as the 72 reBesulosing Besulos, or transubstantiation?
Serious question, not trolling. If we can accept the supernatural/unexplained that we see does not happen as fact, why should we disbelieve when others claim the same?
The whole point of my opening post is that the entirety of science is based on a major assumption for which there is no logical basis and which is inherently untestable.
Pum Fakert! If something is “untestable” then it is not “proven”. The reason why conclusions are “proven” (and even then it may be within the realm of statistical probability) is because the results can be replicated time and time again. If one time the results are not replicated, then the theory fails, or is modified to account for the new information. That is why your science book from 50 years ago is not the same as it is today. New theories have been “proven”, and old ones disproven.
The underlying “laws” are irrelevant to the conversation. Whether an apple falls due to gravity, general relativity or quantum gravity makes no difference to either yourself (when it hits you on the head) or the apple (although it may have other applications, which is why you may want to test the “why”).
again, the bus thing is only because we were raised that way. the women dont feel that way. ay, you think they do? they still dont. they are not sent to the back, they sit in the back. and they dont view it a demeaning. civilty is vaiter something being dictated by those who decided it isnt civil.
Even Naniach your point, since some of those to whom it is being applied do have an education, know about Rosa Parks and do feel discriminated against (as opposed to those who don’t care, or who don’t have an education), shouldn’t the order be changed? Even if it is a matter of perception, perception is the Ikkar (especially when you want cooperation regarding the draft and funding of Yeshivos). A compromise on a point that L’Halacha makes no Nafkei Mina anyway can go a long way in opening opportunities for Charaidim getting what they want in other areas.
benignuman, so shaking hands is OK since it’s not derech chiba?
Shaking hands does not equal medical attention. One is an action cementing a relationship, the other is not.
HaKatan: As a side point, do you eat from the national Hashgachos (OU, OK, Star-K, CRC, etc.)? Are you aware that the Mashgichim are probably Tzionim and therefore (L’shitascha) are Passul as an Eid Echad?
I have yet to see a single poster here explain why or provide any semi- legitimate explanation.
Rav Shteinman washed his hands of the whole business and has declared the only derech is to increase learning. He also is Rov in Beni Brak, and the “Chalmis” don’t follow him. It would be like asking the head Mormon to condemn the Catholic Church priest scandal.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/where-are-the-manhigim#post-476547
If these extremists aren’t stopped, the end result will be that Israel will be put into a very awkward situation of having to explain to its supporters, not to mention hostile “neutrals”, why they are engaging in religious persecution in violation of international law
Seriously? Europe would be more than happy to get rid of the “Ultra-Orthodox”, which they see as a cross of Muslim extremists & Settlers (See: Beitar, Kiryat Sefer and Ramot). The Charaidim have lost the battle for the minds of the Yeshivish Ba’al Ha’Batim in America. The Chassidim (Satmar) will not be able to help in Washington, and even if they could, they will not (They care more about the continuation of funding).
Help from outside is highly unlikely.
akuperma, Shaychus? ROB is correctly pointing out that actions of certain Charaidim are putting all Charaidim in a bad light (what might be called “Chillul Charaidi”). Unless it is stopped externally, outsiders will treat the Charaidi group as no different than those who “support” suicide bombers.
That is still not something the Charaidi politic is ready for. Contrast that with Lapid, who is perfectly willing to be villified by the Charaidi on the street, and in fact revels in it.
I wish I had been there. I would have thrown anything I could find at the police, and then at the bus, etc.
Looks like Popa’s got some fighting spirit too.
Popa is built like a tank (and is as big as one. Ayin Rashi Bava Kama 10B DH Kigon). He can take them all on. :-0
GAW, for that you should have quoted my last paragraph, instead. I don’t think you’re right, though. He was in America. Although people here had strong feelings for Israel, the Shita wouldn’t really separate them from the general society. For that he could have yelled more about secular education. Besides, saying that he invented a whole Shita out of thin air,a as a trick, is surely disrespectful. This is a large leap from what I said, that the organisation was Passul and he backed up the Psul with Lomdus.
HaLeiVi: The insularity of Satmar did not start in New York, but in Europe. Placing the extreme p’sul on the entire movement made it unable to enter the discussion.
The Shitta of Shalosh Shevuos is not “out of thin air”, but the emphasis on it is extreme. The Satmar Rov seems to have forced the Kefirah issue because he had no answer for the Rambam in Yad. However, once you call something “Kefirah”, it creates other consequences (which (I think) current day Satmar doesn’t hold of) that makes for an extremely insular community (for example, Eidus of a Kofer that something is Kosher may not be acceptable, so Satmar should not use the national Hashgachos).
As far as the Secular eductaion is concerned, the Satmar Rov (as well as others, including myself) believed that someone has to bring in money and work. Satmar is not into “secular education” similar to YU. They do believe that the husband should work and the wife take care of the children, similar to how Klal Yisroel has been doing it for hundreds of years.
Is there such a vision?
And to think that this isn’t a drive for the coming of Mashiach?
No. Two Jews, Three opinions. I see some “Orthodox” groups joining with the Arabs before they would join with the hated Zionists.
The Satmar Rebbe, as we know, referred to the Shalosh Shvuos like a De’oraysa of the strongest caliber. His answer to why the Rambam doesn’t mention it, IIRC, is that the Issur of Shalosh Shvuos is a form of Kefira in the Geula. Therefore, the Rambam didn’t mention this particular Gemara that outlines an Onesh once he mentioned Moshiach and the Emuna in a Geula.
Might I also posit that the Satmar Rebbe saw that having a community in Eretz Yisroel under Jewish rule, if viewed positively by his sect, would be the end of the “Shtetel” that he had in Europe, as well as was trying to create (and created) in America (with the insular communities of Williamsburg & Kiryas Yoel). Therefore, in order to forward his vision of a separate community, not only from non-Jews but also from non-Satmars (or better put, those not willing to live like Satmars), he had to make the Jewish Yishuv a non-starter as an issue, and so made opposition to it a cornerstone of Satmarism.
Of course, this is just speculation, but to create as strong of an issur that Satmar did on the state (I feel) has to have more to it than Halacha.
(P.S. I don’t believe this is disrespectful to the Satmar Rov, rather the opposite, as it shows the depth of his vision).
TOi: So, there was never any problem with hechsherim from chareidi rabbonim? hechserim are a business and ,at times, problems arise, but I would never cast aspersions on the whole hechsher industry.
I will. They are all either after Gelt or pulling politics. I would not trust a single one completely, only after investigation.
Edit: That is not to say anything about a specific org., but rather that all of them need to be checked.
Haredi fighting spirit = Joe keeps on coming back.
Hi Joe/Gensa.
As with all Halachic questions, ask your LOR.
That’s the definition of marriage for a Torah Jew. Period. Anything else, anyONE else is like marrying a doorstop to a cuckoo clock. It has no halachic meaning AT ALL. And once you get out of a halachic discussion, we’re just talking about your personal opinions.
Not really true for a Ben Noach. Rambam Ishus first perek.
Being that the United States is a country that constitutionally affords equal rights to all citizens, and certain benefits come along with being “married,” the right to those benefits should not be denied anyone.
Agreed. The problem is that we have offered these benfits to those who are “married” (a quasi-religious term (as in the sacrament), although defining it as such is against the first amendment). The benefits should be offered to any two individuals of consenting age and ability who choose to merge their finances and lives, AKA a civil union.
To CM: I am in general against offering benefits to single mothers who had their children out of “wedlock” (or Civil Union). We should not be incentivizing mothers to have children outside of a stable family structure.
How about a “Dickey”?
(Learned term from Ittisa)
As for the OP, his words speak for themselves (as per why he is incorrect), and I don’t see anything that I need to add.
I agree that HaKatan’s Derech is valid. If only the “Charaidim” would have followed his appropriate Derech and not joined in with the Tzionim to create Yeshivas Rodef Kesef, our current troubles would not have existed. Instead, they were a Zona (like the american term “got into bed”) with what they themselves consider to be Assur.
yichusdik: I don’t agree with it, but being anti-Tzioni is a valid Shittah. As long as they are consistant (they don’t take any money from the government, including health care), and leave others who don’t follow their derech unharmed, I have no issues with them and neither should you. If they hold the state is Assur, they are objectors to that state and should not be forced to serve.
Sounds Texan. Slow cooked brisket in a pit would work as “Chulent”.
What do you mean “him”, Joe? Or do you always refer to yourself in third person?
Daas2: I’m glad to hear it (regarding HaPeles). I have no problem with non-violence, as long as it does not incite. That being said, as a Jew I have a problem with one Yid calling another a cockroach (especially because there are those who are incited by such towards violence, but even without it. Yidden shouldn’t call other yidden Parasites (from either side).). If they called them “Avaryanim” or removed them from schools, I would have fewer Taynos.
I’m not sure why you think a government is justified in cutting off all funds to any group that does not support its policies… would you similarly advocate cutting the funds of all DL institutions that came out against the Disengagement?
That was not a disagreement whether there should be a state or not, but regarding the policies of the state. If they had come out that the state (or its institutions) should be disobeyed, then yes (IIRC, some of the hesder yeshivos were kicked out of the program for that reason).
As an FYI, my “feeling” is that you are Joe as well. Mods, you want to take a look into that?
Does anyone else agree that Joe, by his very commenting on threads, undermines his point? My thoughts when I see him is “Only someone like Joe would think like that”.
if you are a girl, you have just asked yourself,”Why doesnt anyone just take him out of the stupid pit?”
Except for those who know that many people die from falling in wells every year. Besides, even if he is pulled out, we still have no proof the voice wasn’t a Shaid.
abc12345: Are you using an Artscroll?
GAW -“they have to show they are part of the community, or the “community” will not be interested in funding them.”
Most people in Mea Shearim don’t want to be part of the Israeli/Zionist community and don’t take their money.
Wrong community. If Gimmel wants Tzioni moeny, they have to show that they support the soldiers against the Baryonim. If not, then the state is correct in not giving money to those who do not support it.
“Here in the US, the Agudah regularly puts out statements. Let the Moetzes or the even the Gimmel party put out a “statement”.”
You can want all you want, but if they don’t – it doesn’t make it wrong.
I’m not arguing that it does. I’m not saying Satmar should put out a statement supporting the Tzionim either. It simply shows which “side” Gimmel is on.
Once again, I would like to hear what “HaKatan” has to say.
Do you really epect them to just queitly march off to jail?
Do you really expect them to go to jail? Was this person attempting to jail them?
gaw- you really need to learn a bit more about Meah Shearim. The people are mostly Toldos Aharon and Toldos Avaham Yitzchok chasidim.
Not sure what your point is. (The note regarding Satmar was indicitive of what “denialists” would hold).
Again, they don’t say violence is acceptable.
I hear you. However, it does give justification for those who are violent. If you met up with Pharaoh or Hitler (Yemach Shemam), wouldn’t you want to kill them (and feel justified in doing so)? If instead of actual violence, Arab schools taught that the Jews are Hitler and God Killers, you would not have any issues with it?
P.S. of course there is a difference between someone who you call names and an actual killer. It requires education to know that there is a difference.
The difference is that the Arabs have it in their textbooks. Violence is part of their “chinuch”.
At worst, violence in the chareidi community is a negative byproduct of strongly held hashkafos. I don’t think you believe that they teach it in cheder.
I could be cheeky and say its because the Charaidim don’t have any textbooks!!
What are the Satmar teaching in schools? From the Times of Israel:
Carrying signs comparing the Israeli government to Pharaoh and Adolf Hitler, students at a suburban New York haredi Orthodox school demonstrated against an Israeli bill aiming to draft haredi men into the army.
I’m interested in hearing what HaKatan has to say here. Is the violence justified or not?
Nothing drastic happens. If a family does not meet local standards they won’t be able to send to a local school. No one would actually hurt them physically, or give them public yellings. The rebbetzin might invite a woman or girl who isn’t dressing right to her house for a private talk.
If that would happen to these Baryonim (similar to those who went to Iran), I (and others) would be satisfied.
If it was physical, likely most don’t. But if I would say I knew for sure, I’d be guilty of the same type of “biased” judgement I’ve accused others of (although “guilty” is probably the wrong word, since there is a chiyuv to judge others favorably).
Unless it is a mitzva to oppose the Tzionim, which in that case it would be L’Kaf Chov?! 🙂
I would like to think you are correct. However, events seem to be showing otherwise (unless you believe in the “silent majority”, in which case you would extend to Arabs as well (and means the Yerushamis are being opressed as is)).
GAW- im only gonna watch this thread, as i have no interest in debating it, but i commend your choice of ghetto diction.
🙂
Gamanit: I’m unsure what your point is. What happens when one of THEM start dressing in a way that the group feels is not “Tznius”? YOU are already an outsider.
Joe: You missed my entire point (and knowing you, on purpose).
ZD and GAW, which politicians condemn is based completely on political, not moral, considerations, and is a separate discussion.
First, I don’t agree with you. As a public figure, one is expected to have positions. Those should be based on something other than the latest straw poll.
Even if you are correct, let’s expand the conversation. What in the world is Gimmel thinking by not condemning the attack?
Finally, do you agree that the “chalmis” condone the attack?
Contrary to popular perception, the rabbis in Meah Shearim do NOT have control over enforcing tznius in the neighborhood. They have no enforcement powers, contrary to popular perception. The remarkable adherence to proper tznius in MS is a result of education of the people and the people’s own love of following halachic dictates.
To the point were a certain sect has “Kapos” to enforce the rules.
Being that you’ve been here for 20 minutes, I’m going to call you Joe.
Anyone else?
Health: To continue, the Charaidi politicians should be the ones to protest (and to his credit Aryeh Deri did so). Besides for being the right thing to do (and you can’t say that they don’t know about it), if they want co-operation from the rest of Israelis for funding,
they have to show they are part of the community, or the “community” will not be interested in funding them.
I don’t blame Rav Shteinman (CV). His “Gabbaim” probably have told him nothing, so he knows nothing about the attack.
Here in the US, the Agudah regularly puts out statements. Let the Moetzes or the even the Gimmel party put out a “statement”.
This post is where you have gone over to the Charedi bashers side.
It’s Not the job of the leaders to police every criminal in their community.
But it is their job to police evey Tznius violation?
I wouldn’t call myself on either side. As far as I’m concerned, Rav Shteinman said to be passive and be Marbeh in Tefilah and Limud. I agree with those such as yichusdik the Mea Shearim crowd (which does not follow the Gedolei HaDor) is not against beating up soldiers when they have the chance.
If the Charaidim were politically savvy (which they may not want to be for other reasons), they would disassociate themselves from that group (or at the very least try to explain the differences regarding supporting the state at large), and then no one would have any Tainos (and Aderaba, would note the restraint being shown).
Then again, doing so may go against the “passive” ruling of Rav Shteinman. I’m not sure.
No such collective will or collective way exists with violence like this. The logical conclusion is that it isn’t enough of an affront to the community to motivate its manhigim.
I have to agree. Had the perp’s wife gone out with her knees showing (instead of him attacking a Charaidi soldier), he certainly would have been punished/shunned by the community.
The Sem answer:
Don’t sell. Bitachon says if the Ribbono Shel Olam wants you to win, you will get the full amount. If not, you get nothing. There is no reason to sell.
Problem: Perhpas the RBSO wants you to get the amount being offered, and not the full amount of the lottery, and if you don’t sell, He will give you nothing (as you did not do your Hishtadlus).
Agree with DY, Hirsh is not a “Rabbi” of any kind (except perhaps Reform).
?? ??? ???? ?? ????: ?? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????, ???? ??? ????, ?????? ??? ???.
Most b’nei Torah in E.Y. (according to relatives I’ve spoken to) don’t live at a much higher standard than that.
And those are the ones who will continue learning without subsidies. Furthermore, (IMHO) they will get more support since those supporting will know they are learning by choice, not just to avoid Nachal Charaidi.
You also did not address my other points, but I’ll leave that.
I never used to self-describe as chareidi, until the past year or two. But I’m happy to wear it; I’m happy to affiliate as chareidi.
Ich bin chareidi.
I used to self-describe as chareidi (type: American), until the past year or four. But now I’m unhappy to wear it; I’m unhappy to affiliate as chareidi. I can’t be part of a system that does not condemm the Yad Eisav as a solution, any more than I could identify with a society that does not expel suicide bombers. I can’t be part of a system that teaches sinah for other Yidden, that uses sheker to promote its causes (even to the unwashed masses). (and I can’t blame the mods if they don’t post this)
What am I? I’ll use the same term Rashi translates for Charaidi (in Ezra) and Rav Moshe used. Yeraim.
(as per Google),
??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?????????
(And I’m sad that I am no longer)
At this age, they are more self aware in some sense and would understand why you would send them to a therapist/psychologist or for any sort of professional help. If you want to help this traumatized young man, then the most you can do to help is give him the opportunity to go for professional help– someone recommended.
This. Ignore the “Yiddishkeit” for now, that can only come after healing. The big step in healing would be seeing the perp punished for his actions.
JMH, WS: Very nicely done.
Seriously, though, I am disturbed that the possibility of a large decrease in talmud Torah doesn’t see to bother you.
It does bother me. Obviously I’m not qualified to decide which way is best, but I will note that the current system creates a huge decrease in Kavod HaTorah & Kavod Shomayim by non-Charaidim. Furthermore, I would not be certain that the Torah learned without subsidies will not be better that that which is learned now. As it says in Perkei Avos:
?? ??? ???? ?? ????: ?? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????, ???? ??? ????, ?????? ??? ???.
It also says:
???? ????? ????: ????? ??? ???, ???? ???–?? ???? ???????; ??? ??????, ?? ???? ????. ??? ???, ???? ???–?? ????. ??? ???, ???? ???–????. ??? ???, ???? ???–???.
P.S. What I’m doing is explaining the non-Charaidi side. As far as what will happen, Rav Shteinman’s approach as I quoted from Rabbi Adlerstein is to be passive. I would like to see a compromise/moderation of some sort (in the end, and I expect to), but only one that would be Al Pi Halacha & be Marbeh Kavod Shomayim.
DY: Do I win? 😉