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Nisht: I thought you were going to say that calling him Mrs. is disrespectful to our Nashim Tzidkanios!!
DY: Likewise, have a good shabbos. It’s always fun.
nishtdayngesheft: You’re right, he has the order backwards and I didn’t realize that was the issue you had. I thought you were looking for a source of the actual phrase.
I don’t understand the problem. What you sow, you reap. And the next year, you take what your reaped and you sow it again!!!
Or someone else takes it and sows to your detriment.
DY: I think I can agree with that to the most part.
Nisht: It’s a Pasuk in Mishlei:
??????? ???????, ?????- (???????-) ?????; ???????? ????????? ???????.
(then again, with me, you will probably claim that “the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose” (and that makes me the Jew of the play))
I would sit there dumbfounded and numb for a good while. And then I would probably cry from my emotions.
Same, but the opposite. Cry first, then sit dumbfounded and cry more.
You’re nothing compared to these guys. I’m shocked that YWN allows such comments on their site.
That being said, the question is not how you treat those in your office who you know, but how you treat a general person with similar aspects. If you are neutral until proven otherwise, than you are not a racist (IMHO).
Also there is a cultural divide between groups (as there should be between us and non-jews, for example). That may have something to do with it as well.
LAB: When people asked me if my ex was “unwell” I said, it’s called BAD MIDOS-ITIS.
Double like!!
Thought-Criminals must be transfered to the Ministry of Love, where they will remember how they have loved, love and will always love Big Brother.
Down with Goldstein!!
120, no.
College is Bad For Shidduchim. Boys should be learning, and girls should be natually rich with fathers who are able to support.
(I haven’t seen PBA for a week. Any ideas where he went?)
Ok, but if even metzitzah is a shailah, it’s ultimately a decision based on Torah values, not on what society considers moral.
I’m not sure of that. Part of the reasoning behind the Cherem of Rabbainu Gershom at that time (it is said, I don’t have the source off the top of my head) was because of of the Catholic Sacrement of Marriage, making Bigamy a sin in their eyes. So too here, if Metziza becomes an societal issue with the general public (which B”H it has not), that would be a consideration.
Even L’Shitascha, how much weight to give to “studies” and Nistar is subjective as well (similar to the case of Runia, which was all Halachic and nothing societal, but nonetheless was morally ambiguous).
A simple “no” is the correct answer. It is b&w. No Rov required for this one.
Bris yes; Metizah not.
To give a counter example, is bris mila immoral in a society which considers it barbaric ch”v?
Very good. That is the point, that each idea has to be weighed based on the subjective weights placed on it by the viewer. Bris Milah in general would certainly get a higher weight than other “problematic” concerns, such as (for example) Mietiza B’Peh (which is certainly not Meakev) for the Pikuach Nefesh (or societal) problem.
Point being, it’s not black & white. That’s why you need a Rov.
Google “straimel Shlomo Pappenheim”. To quote the Jpress article:
It’s an example of a larger picture, how outside society influences what is “Yashar V’Tov” and what is “Moral”. An obvious example (top of my head) would be Keddushei Ketana, which no one would suggest is appropriate but Al Pi Halacha is 100% Muttar.
DY: See the Straimel example above.
FNY: Yes, Rashi. Rashbam doesn’t start until the third Perek.
I believe we agree on this point. The “internal procedures” depend on a subjective understanding of the issues. The “Din” of “Yashar V’Tov” (a general moral) is determined in its practical application by Rava based on his understanding of the facts. The moral “Do good” may be objective, but its application certainly is not. This moves on to other examples as well, such as the recent call by one of the Chassidishe Rebbes to wear fake straimels due to the cost and current external pressures on not wearing fur hats. That may be “Yashar V’Tov”, but it is based on a subjective understanding of the facts with which others might disagree.
Now to move to a more difficult case, let’s take Mechias Amalek. The “Moral” of “Yashar V’Tov” would (Pashtus) say not to do so. Either you believe that “Morality” is overridden by Halacha (and you are not a Kofer), or you believe that Hashem is saying that is included in “Yashar V’Tov” and is moral. See the post that I linked to earlier in the thread for more on that.
[???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? <????? (???? ??) ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????> ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????
BB 16b
Agree with JF, etc. Only if they came from a Hispanic country are they Hispanic. I knew a Jew who came from Columbia to the US, and that would be OK (IMHO). Just because you are Sephardic does not make one hispanic.
P.S. The white African American is technically correct. It is not his.her fault they were not more specific regarding color or other requirements. Or is an African American with Micheal Jackson Syndrome also excluded due to the color of their skin?
DY: Going back to that Rashbam, it is exactly his point there that make “Yashar V’Tov” and morality subjective. By the rules in place, Runia has no right to the land. Subjectively based on Runia’s wealth (or lack thereof) it was decided that it would be more “Yashar” to waive Bar Metzra.
The same would be true in the other example that you mentioned. Another example is Tosfos by Issur Giurah, where the needs of Rava’s Yeshiva overrode the Mitzva L’Kayem Diveri HaMes (brought in many places, including BB 149a IIRC). That is a subjective application of morality.
If Halacha is the word of God (the Torah) applied to our lives (which btw is how I define halachah — not as the “rules” but as the “application
Better, but not there yet. How do you decide application of Halachic principles, especially when they conflict? See Bava Basra 5a Rashbam for some more insight.
GAW – do you recall the story in which the rabbis were arguing and one Rabbi tried to bring proofs from the wall, the river, and the heavenly voice, and the other rabbis responded “lo bashamayaim hi” and won?
You mean Tanur shel Achnai? Why didn’t you just say so?
;-p
DY – tumah is an exception, as i pointed out.
Bar metzra is also ‘yashar v’tov’. That i forgot before. Thanx.
DY: Tumah is not Nogaiyh today anyway (unless you are a Brisker Machmir and separate your own Terumah U’Maaser after the Rabbanut, Badatz, and your spouse all did so previously) 😉 B’Zman HaMikdash even in moderation it was a problem, due to Terumah, Kodshim, etc.
I look forward to your Marr’e Mekomos on the Halachic guidelines of “Yasher V’Tov”.
Wolf, FNY, DY: I believe the idea of “Naval” is that all of these things are inherantly muttar (in moderation), and the Torah does not Asser them. However, there is an Mitzva not to be a “Glutton”, either in food, drink, women, etc. Reshus means that the action individually is muttar, but in context it is a mitzva not to do it.
“Morality” might come from “Yashar V’Tov”, but that once again is very subjective.
frumnotyeshivish: Some of Perkei Avos is Halacha because it is in Perkei Avos, not because it is Halacha L’Moshe MiSinai. Other things (such as (I would think) “Sonei Es HaRabbanus” or “Lephum Tzara Agrah”) are not “Halacha”.
The concept (which you probably mean “Nitnu Reshus L’Chachamim”, not “Lo Bashomayim He”) puposely has very narrow application (perhaps Chol Hamoed, maybe others). Lo Bashomayim He is a completely different idea, in which bais din is given the right to Pasken within the framework of existing Halacha. It has nothing to do with making new Halacha, Chas V’Shalom, and certainly has nothing to do with “morality”. Tanur shel Achnai (the classic example) is a Halachic, not moral, issue.
If you define Halacha as “morality”, that is perfectly understood. Just realize that you are not using the word in the way other people would understand it. It is like calling an object with four walls, a roof and a door a “cat” because that is what you think a “cat” should look like.
streekgeek – if you subscribe to orthodox judaism, then halacha = morality. Any distinctions between the two is saying either 1. torah is not misinai or 2. you know better than god. Neither of those statement allows one to remain within “the klal.”
Where do you believe Perkei Avos fits?
Also see here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-i-am-also-still-frum/page/4#post-484051
TheReader, and if he refuses to show up then Beis Din goes to sleep?
What does it mean “refuse to show up”? Did the Bais Din go to him personally and ask?
1: I agree with Joe as far as the Halacha is concerned. At the very least, Bais Din means by definition that they have attempted to see both sides in court. It would be very difficult to get a Halachic Kofen.
2: There is still a Din of Dan L’Kaf Zechus.
Ferd: I don’t know why you would expect anything else from Joe.
I’ve come up with a term for it. “Torah Incorporated.”
Running a yeshiva IS big business, plus no one asks questions when you employ familiy just because they are related.
Unfortunately, I have to agree. The Rebbe and the Principal care more about their own jobs. If the rich person’s child is disciplined and the school goes under, who does that help? No one. Hurt? Everyone.
I believe the chosen response helps the most people.
(That’s not to say the child won’t grow up with issues because he was babied. He will, but that is long term).
It all depends on definitions.
Joe counted himself a couple hundred thousand times (once per screenname) and Walla! 70% Charaidi 🙂
Give him another year and it will be up to 80%.
GAW, source? Look in Avodah Zorah 16B-17A, where Rabi Eliezer was punished for agreeing with Yoshke’s dvar Torah!
Yes, because it was Minus (or more accurately, Malig on the Torah). This is Chazal.
?”? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? Shabbos 127b
????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????
Chofetz Chaim H’ Lashon Hara 3:7.
And as I said before:
??? ????, ?? ????? ?? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????, ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????.
Perkei Avos second perek.
There is a reason why they (they Gedolim of the prior generation) that anyone who went through the Holocaust is Kaddosh and can not be judged.
Chazal also say (and I forget where, but IIRC it is quoted by Rashi in Chumash) that someone who asks Hashem to judge or punish gets their Massim looked at first. Perhaps someone could help me here.
But I’m glad that you (and the mods, who agree this is no issue) have my back in case I do quote something that is Minus. 🙂
Mod-73: As per your request, this will be my last post on this subject in this thread, Beli Neder. Assaf did not come here to be put down and called a Rasha.
I think you belong in cherem
Or even better yet, Skilah? Perhaps you, who is without sin, should cast the first stone?
😉
Because, GAW, this is what Yoshke held.
In all probability, he actually held of 95%-99% of what Chazal held. For example, the last supper was the Korbon Pesach. Should you drop that as well?
Because we are talking about hanhogos Shamaim, and you bring Yoshka’s view as a sourse! Have you converted To Christianity? Have you become a priest r”l? Do you believe in J-s? I can’t believe we are having these discussion!!
Boich Svara. Once again, a source (and then I will surpise you with all the phrases that you currently use but should not be L’shitascha. You can even google it yourself if you would like.).
No one is making you continue this discussion.
Also, why do you single out this specific group, when ignorance of basic literature, history, and science is epidemic in the U.S. as a whole?
We really need a “like” button.
Rebdoniel- I don’t mean to minimize the pain you were caused by others, but what you don’t understand is the intense pain some people feel. Sometimes the hurt is just too bad. And it leads people to hate themselves and everything about the people who hurt them. So if those people are religious it causes then to resent religion. I was taught that there’s a Gemara that says someone who rules his home with an iron hand and the household lives in fear, the children will come to do the three cardinal sins.
Yup.
Additionally, I think that sometimes if it is a choice between religion or emotional health than your health comes first. Someone who has never experienced this will never understand no matter what anyone says.
Depends if it is one of the big 3 or not. The gemorah explicity talks about someone who was smitten by a woman and was told better to die than to do an Avairah with her.
MDD: Please don’t talk to me then. 🙂
Seriously, do you have a source as per why I can’t quote a secular statement that originated from Matthew, but has been accepted in the common day phraseology of American society?
(as a purely theoretical discussion…)
Maybe. From Rambam Teshuva 3rd perek:
????? ?? ??????? ??????????: ????? ???? ?? ????? ???, ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????; ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ????; ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????. ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????????.
????? ?? ??????? ?????: ????? ???? ????? ??? ?’, ????? ???? ???, ????? ???? ???–?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ???? ?????; ??? ????? ???????, ???? ???? ???? ??, ?????? ??????, ???? ???? ???????; ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ??, ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?’, ???? ???????? ????????. ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????.
Kofer B’Torah – Yes. Is someone like that being “????? ” the Nevuah of Moshe Rabbainu? I don’t know.
MDD:
1: Yes. (Even though it wasn’t a proof, it was a quote). Just like I would quote Shakespeare.
2: I never claimed the list was exhaustive. However, I’m talking about Chazal’s list.
3: Somewhat correct. There are Mitzvos Sichlios that everyone should be keeping, and Chukim that those who have not been taught would not know, or refuse to keep. I refuse to blame someone who went through the Holocaust, or got Meanesed in the Mikva, or who was degraded by his Rabbaim for not keeping the non Mitzvos sichlios of Yiddishkeit, even out of spite.
That all being said, I’m not discussing what should be done Halachicly. Ask your LOR for that. I’m (and I thought Joe as well originally) am discussing what the Ribbono Shel Olam will do. For that I refuse to judge.
Reb Doniel: I wouldn’t disagree with most of what you said (her children are Jewish, though, and she does have Dinnei Niddah, can’t use them where Amirah L’Akum is muttar, etc.). That is not to say that the Ribbono Shel Olam will punish them for their actions. He may, and He may not. That is for Him to know.
mdd:
1: Why not? Chachma BaGoyim Ta’amin.
2: Yes, I did note that as well.
3: Impression?
To Nossan B.: We don’t know why he “dumped Halacha”. Was it because of a bad choice, Chavairim, Rabbaim (which I have seen time and time again), parents, Me’Anesed in the Mikvah, or perhaps just a really strong Yeter Hara?
We don’t know. Hashem does. That is why Hashem judges and we don’t. Judge not, that ye be not judged. (MDD, read that as “Al Tadin es Chavercha Ad Shetehei B’Mikomo”).