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In times of the Gemara, any limud Torah for girls was at best optional. Today, with the alternative being public school, BY is a chiyuv.
The alternative is not public school, but homeschooling, just like they did in the Alter Heim.
I rarely see jewish entertainers Like MBD or Fried do soley for-profit open venue. They almost always do Benefits and their for-profit venues are private events like weddings and Bar-Mitzvahs.
As an FYI, there are very strong Halachic reasons why this is the case. Ayin in the sugyah of Zimrah.
WIY: Thank you for your valuble input. I assume that means the full cost, including Limmudei Chol?
PBA: More Hashkafa than anything else. See my note to DY regarding what I consider “necessary expenses”, which I agree are included. I’m just using Akuperma’s definition of “necessary”.
DY: L’shitascha, it is just “laziness” that people don’t pool together money to hire a Kollel guy to teach their children. Mah Shein Kein by travel, where the Rebbe in some way or fashion has to be brought to the talmidim, so it is a necessary expense. If the Mafia foced you to pay extra for a specific yeshiva vs. some other option, that (IMHO) would not count either. Perhpas it would if they made you pay to be able to have any form of Limud.
Just because someone makes you pay it doesn’t make it “necessary”.
DY: I probably would as well. They are not Nogeih in my case.
PBA: I don’t agree. You call pool resources without a Yeshiva (as they did in Europe).
Gavra, I don’t understand that. Since in order to have them allow my child in the class, I must pay a lot more than 2k, why shouldn’t it all count?
Also, is there a nafka mina?
Not really. It would be similar to a Rebbe who charges 2K, but a Mafia-type forces you to pay an extra 3K “Or else” (At least that is what I think. YMMV).
For a practical NM, ask your LOR. Possibly a chesbon in sending to one school that has nicer facilities over another.
Why, is maintenance for a building for you kid to learn in not hotzaos?
Is an administration for the school not hotzaos?
I get it that english classes aren’t.
And perhaps you’ll argue that other people’s kids isn’t, but that is straight up tzedaka at the worst.
They all don’t pay for actual Limud. Yes Tzedaka is good, but it also isn’t Schar Limud and has its own Halachos.
Tuition is NOT ????? ???? ?????? ???? (and my Rov agrees). This would include a tutor, but tuition includes many things besides Limud. Perhaps it would cover that portion of your tuition that is paid to your son’s (only a son) Rebbe proportional to the number of children in the class.
For example, if the rebbe gets paid 40K and there are 20 children in the class, then 2K of tuition is ????? ???? ?????? ???? , and the rest is not.
More powerful than the Schwartz.
It really depends on the dynamic of your workplace (which your LOR may or may not understand). In a majority-Jewish/Yeraim workforce there is certainly no reason to call someone by their first name (male or female).
DY: I’ll take a look & see if anything comes up. Yasher Koach.
oomis: Doesn’t mean you are allowed to obsess over it. You should just think the reason I don’t do it is because Hashem said so and no other reason.
DY: Once again, I don’t disagree. Chazal say that Levavchem & Aineichem are Minus & Zenus (also see Rashi in Yoma 29a on top (something I found researching this topic)). But Hirhur Halev (seemingly) applies to other items, and Lo Tasuru is only to fantasize about doing actual Issurim (which is what Rav Moshe explicitly states, as you quoted). The best you can do is prove that Lo Tasuru is Minus & Zenus, and I can’t prove that it is also specifically talking about other things as well, although those are (seemingly) also Assur to fantasize about (and proven via the Al Cheits).
The Gemorah (BB, I’ve quoted it before) says Gezel is even worse that Arayos, which may be why the ????? ????? adds Chemdas Mamon to the items that are examples of Hirhur Halev (although seemingly the list is not meant to be exhaustive).
I feel like we are going in circles.
The quote from the Dover Shalom indicates that others aren’t inherently assur.
Also WADR, is the “Dover Shalom” (I believe stories from the Belzer Rebbe) authoritative? I happen to like Belz personally, but that certainly is not the same as a Teshuvah from Rav Moshe.
DY: That (if Hirhur for women is inherently Assur) is our point of contention. Saying Hirhur is assur is certainly true, but possibly (and I believe) only for men.
DY: The ????? ????? is a good quote, but it also proves that the Issur of Hirhur Halev expands past “Lo Tasuru” for Arayos & Zenus exclusively. I am very interested to find a source that gives a full list to the exclusion of all other Hirhuri Avairah.
DY: I originally thought you were right about “???? ??????”. Then I remembered in the “Al Cheit”s, there is one for Hirhur HaLev, which is fantasizing about doing all Issurim (not just Zenus and Avodah Zara). If we say an Al Cheit for it…..
You may be right (which in that case, I will go back to fantasizing about that dry-aged porterhouse :-). I’ll agree if you can bring a (real) source. It doesn’t really change the main point, though.
As far as Jfem, it once again depends on the type of Hirhurim you (or she, or Rav Moshe) is discussing. Once again, Rav Moshe is discussing a specific thought of doing a very specific action, not the thought of the person themselves (which is what “Hirhurim” means Legabey men). You may be right, you would have to ask Jfem what she meant.
??? ????? ????? ????? ????
Exactly. To “do” the Avairah (just like to “eat” the Ham sandwich). That is not the “Hirhur” that applies to men.
As far as JFem, one is certainly not allowed to go mixed swimming. Other than that, I’m not sure to what you are refering with Ra Moshe not agreeing.
?”? ??? ?’ ??’ ?”?
If anything, that proves exactly what I am saying. Other than the general Issur to fantasize about doing actual Issurim (which I think applies to a Ham sandwich as well), Rav Moshe explictly says there are no Issurim of Hirhur or Histaklus for a woman.
MDD: Where is the Igros Moshe?
Redleg: I’m a Gavra, not a Rabbi.
JFem: The Chodesh is not an error in Halacha. Halacha is whatever Chazal say it is (and certainly by Kiddush HaChodesh, where the critical action is Kiddush Bais Din). In fact, Bais Din would manipulate the Chodesh so that certain yom tovim would not fall out on certain days of the week. That is perfectly accptable al pi halacha.
MDD: The Rashi there (70b, you could have been nice and given me the Maree Makom) literally has no Shaichus whatsoever to our discussion. There is no personal connection (as there is there), and that is the only Halachic concern (that she may reach out to him because of that personal connection).
Show me where it says it in Shulchan Aruch and I’ll agree to you.
JFem, FNY, you are both missing a critical point. Halacha doesn’t really care at all if women are attracted to men, if they have “inappropriate” thoughts, or even if they act on those thoughts alone within the privacy of their home (as long as they don’t act on them with the man himself). For a man Halacha does care.
Gateshead (R. Falk’s Yeshiva). I imagine the girls there don’t have Tumah/internet.
BS”D
I agree with VM as well, but will add another point:
No one (including the RBSO) expects you to be perfect, that is why He created Teshuva. You should view each day as a new and separate battle, and every day that you pass as a major victory. Those days where you lose, Hashem knows that you tried and you really don’t want to do it – Teshuva.
Your Father is in the stands, cheering you on. Don’t get discouraged from a single loss after so many wins. And you get rewarded for effort, even when you lose.
Hatzlacha.
On a practical note, create a geder for yourself. That way even if you go over the fence you still have a chance to stop yourself before any real action.
SG: Mestama – Probably
WIY: Mestama (IIRC). Ayin Bava Basra 28B on the bottom (IIRC) where Rashi & Tos. deal with a set Shmittah. Assuming the timeline is right (granted, a large assumption) and that Yovel was not Noheg in Bayis Shaini, it’s a straight calculation. Others here would probably know more than I do about the Cheshbonos.
As far as the Shalom Bayis question, Shana Rishona is something to survive, until you figure out how to actually live with each other. It does get better.
Agree to get a housekeeper until 6 weeks after the baby (Bezras Hashem), and she agrees to revisit the issue with a clean slate at that point.
She is probably so bent out of shape due to the pregnancy, that she can’t think about cleaning. Its normal, deal with it (and I’m a guy).
As quoted on Kupat Ha’ir’s website:
Mestama Chukas HaGoyim.
Besides, IIRC we have no idea when Yovel is anyway.
DY: That is because there is no flexibility in keeping ikar Halacha. There are work-arounds which may not be socially acceptable, but they do exist (and should be explored when appropriate). Even for an at-risk child, you can’t tell them don’t worry about Niddah today. You can (and perhaps should) tell them not to deal with Minyan or H&J, as that is not as critical.
My issue is more with those who insist on keeping Chumrahs socially than caring about the actual Chumrah itself, or the reason for it. (We certainly agree that a Yorei Shomayim has the right to implement Chumrahs and Gedarim for themselves. They show themselves by being “Machmir” where it is not popular, easy or showy (for an obvious example, not wearing a showy hat, tie or suit vs. making your wife dress like a frump because you are oh so Tznius (while you (the husband) are dripping with bling (or the top of the line Straimel) and making heads turn)).
For example, if a parents wants their child to do the right thing because of how his behavior reflects on them, the child will sense it and could rebel. If a father practices and teaches chumras out of genuine yiras shomayim, the child is likely to keep them b’simcha.
Hear hear!
Would you say it about the Hahu Gavra gemaras?
Did I hear my name being called? 🙂
ROB, Sam, DY: Ayin Nedarim 20B, and Amaimar’s statement. Just because the Chachomim said something was or should be doesn’t make it Halachah Pesukah. And sources do make a difference.
P.S. Even though the Gemorah there says that we don’t Pasken like the Rabannan, they are still called “Malachei HaShareis”, and it is not a slight to their Kavod that we don’t follow them.
i spoke to a rav who said to get married, i asked him about parnassah and he said to trust that Hashem will take care of it…. But i dont have that kind of bitachon
Please ask that Rav that just in case, is the Rav also willing to have Bitachon and put in writing that he will be personally responsible for your support in case you are unable to find a job?
Typical being Machmir with others’ gelt.
How do you support yourself now?
I like hearing from the reasonable posters (such as DY) and often they will have a point that I didn’t think of before.
DY:
Gavra,
1) Chessed is very much part of the family business.
2) The rest I won’t comment on because it would mostly be nitpicking, but I think you missed my main point, that religious coercion is a convenient scapegoat but is hardly the actual culprit. Therefore, the choice between taking a more halachically lenient approach, and keeping your kids frum, is a false choice. You can have your (pas Yisroel/yoshon) cake and eat it too.
3) The OP was, possibly inadvertantly, talking about behavior which is outside of the Torah’s guidelines.
1) Metaphorically, yes. BBB does not work for YDT.
2) I don’t diasagree, but you also missed my point. Religious coercion (especially for items that pure Halacha does not require) is often a means for controlling others, including parents controlling children. Poverty is an easy way to cause distress to children. One has to be Mechanech to each child as they are and in the place that they are.
3) Not sure what you are refering to, but I think that I dealt with that (BF/GF) and agree.
live right: No one is saying to be flexible with the Torah (I think). The issue is how to be flexible within the Torah’s guidelines. I think my idea of making a GF/BF pair get married is a good example of how to work within the Torah to prevent Issurim. Another case is when the issue is really outside the Torah itself (such as wearing a hat, or going to the Mikvah every day). There one can certainly be flexible if that is appropriate Chinuch. That is not the lowering the Ribbono Shel Olam’s standards.
P.S. Are you Joe?
It’s chukas hatziyonim, because working people wear denim.
Which is why real Beni Torah don’t wear ties.
I apologize, in my response before the “he” sould be “He” when refering to the RBSO. I ask that the mods fix that.
DaasYochid: I’m sure they are. Most Roshei Yeshiva’s children go into the Family business (with the exclusion of the one who does Achiezer, which I heard was a lifesaver during Hurricane Sandy).
As for your points:
First, we can never completely ignore the concept of bechirah.
Agreed to a point. It is basically accepted by most (even in the Charaidi world) that Holocaust survivors are “Kedoshim”, even if they are not Frum. The Gemorah in Bava Basra (first perek) says that Iyov was not punished for Kefirah during his time of Tzaar. If someone is sexually abused by a Rebbe, or in the Mikvah, etc. I don’t believe the Ribbono Shel Olam will punish him/her for actions that are a reaction to those acts. From there, it is only a matter of degree. As I’ve said before, I refuse to tell the Ribbono Shel Olam that he needs to punish anyone. Judge not.
Here’s where I’ll do the oversimplifying: the single most important challenge faced by kids is emotional trauma
When does forcing a child to keep things (Halacha or Chumra) start being “emotional trauma”? Yes it depends on how it is done. But when a child logically refuses to wear a hat and jacket during the summer, or wants to have a BF/GF in their teens, or wants to eat a cheeseburger, and you tell them no, is that “emotional trauma”? Parents need to parent.
That being said, when the war becomes never giving in an inch, that would be “emotional trauma”. When you can’t have what others have because you have nothing and the father is sitting and learning, that is “emotional trauma” (besides being extremely selfish on the part of the father (or parents). Why would a child want to continue on that path?
When excessive chumras are made the scapegoat for OTD, I think the main point is being missed. Often, it’s completely a scapegoat, and sometimes, it’s merely a trigger. It’s not the religion itself – not halacha meikar hadin, and not chumra – which is to blame. In some cases, the way it is implemented might be emotionally abusive. (In those cases, I would assume that the emotional abuse isn’t limited to areas of Yiddishkeit, but its a great defense mechanism for a child who rebelled against religion to lay the blame at the foot of religion.) However, healthy parents, with siyata dishmaya and seichel (b’ikar, the siyata dishmaya is needed to give the parents seichel) can, have, and will continue to be mechanech their children, without compromise.
The key word there is “Mechanech”. I agree with you, but note that trying to push square children into round holes is not chinuch.
DY 🙂
No, we should follow the Ribbono Shel Olam. That means following Halacha, not societal norms. That specific point was that many are what you would call “MO” B’Tzinah. They just call it orthoprax.
“MO” and “Chassidish/Charaidi” can become OTD for two different reasons. Comparing the two clouds the issue. Extremism (poverty, learning at all costs, Chumrahs, etc.) is one side. The other may have lack of interest, the “shver”ness I mentioned earlier and may be there to be “socially” Jewish instead of following the Ribbono Shel Olam (for some). There is a balancing act needed (IMHO, the Yekkies & Chofetz Chaim Yeshiva are about where it is, but that is just one gavra’s opinion) to be Mechanach children on the derech in this day and age. Others will disagree and place it somewhere else.
(P.S. I believe you have mentioned that you live in the Five Towns area. Rabbi Bender’s Yeshiva is there, and I very much respect his opinion (His Chinuch Roundtable responses are usually right on the mark). Do you know what he has to say on the matter? I would be interested in hearing his opinion.)
Zdad: of course it is related, because you are precisely arguing that we should become MO to keep our kids frum. So we should see whether that works for MO
Not quite. Plenty of “Yeshivish” people do these things as well (but perhaps not as openly). And one can be “Yeshivish” and not be “Machmir” in various Chumros (such as stockings). One does need to be informed where the line is.
And what if they refused , would you throw them out of the house?
Why would they refuse if I would be supporting them (they would have to go on BC, but they would probably do that anyway)? Think of it from a teen’s perspecitve; there is no downside.
If your Kid tells you he wants to listen to Rock Music and have a BF/GF but will keep Shabbos and Kosher will you disown him or give them mussar and perhaps drive them away or would you still love them and let them make those choices and be happy they are shomer shabbos.
Unfortunately having a BF/GF is practially asking for Issurei Kares. If my child came home with one, I would probably tell them they have to get engaged on the spot and married in 6 weeks or less.
Would you really ask a law school dropout how to run a law school? Sure, it would be worthwhile to ask what bothered him that he wanted to leave, but would you really care for his recommendations?
PBA: It depends on your goal. If your only goal is to graduate the best lawyers, then no, there is no reason to ask the dropouts. But if your goal is to make sure that everyone who enters the system graduates, then yes, you would want their suggestions so that you can move towards that goal.
If your goal is both, you may be “Nimtza Korachas M’Kan UM’Kan”.
“Third” WIY & DY.