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Thank you for removing what needed to be removed.
And who will support the NEXT generation of learners, whose own fathers have no financial backing to give them, because they never learned a trade to earn the kind of parnassah that allowed THEM to sit and learn all day.
Uncle Sam. Until they get sick of supporting generation after generation, and pull the plug, just like in Israel.
I read it and thought the time spent worthwhile. Very realistic and daring for a Jewish-type novel.
keepitcoming: Sorry to burst the bubble, but learning Torah is not the #1 priority in life, being an Oved Hashem is. Being an Oved Hashem has to be looked at holisticly, i.e. how can I (as a person) be the best Oved Hashem possible, including ALL of the Mitzvos (not just one, limud Hatorah).
Doeg HaEdomi was the greatest Lomed Torah in his generation.
Syag – I specifically qualified my statement (regarding Kollel) to Bais Yaakov type sems. The other sems may not have that issue, but certainly do have others. If you want to discuss further, I’m willing on a new thread.
BoysWork, Oomis +2
oomis – Will not happen. Period. As long as girls go to Bais Yaakov type Sems, girls will continue to be pushed that they are failures if they don’t marry Kollel.
And yes, this is one (of many, but one of the biggest) reasons why I feel that Israeli sems are destroying Yiddishkeit. (Since the conversation went this way).
Sitting in kollel DOES NOT MAKE ONE ELITE!!
Yes it does.
In the eyes of Sem trained girls, only multiple years in Kollel will do for a Chasan. Otherwise they think of THEMSELVES as failures to Yiddishkeit (because that is what they were tought in Sem, and possibly high school as well), because they are not supporting (emotionally and financially, either through their’s or daddy’s money) a Kollel Bochur.
In the minds (that which they are) of these girls, guys who are working are second best, if not outright failures. Sitting in Kollel is a neccessary condition to be elite.
wallflower 🙂
ZD: IIRC R’ Weiss is not because of the Agunah issue (ORA already had that in hand). Its more due to the Rabbanits being created (which creates an interesting discussion if a Ger can get Semicha, but that is for a later time).
As far as the “psak” is concerned, I really don’t care what RCK says one way or the other. A Gadol B’Torah does not make one my posek. If it did, I would also have to follow the P’sakim of RSL.
🙂
That is why Chazal say “Asey L’cha Rav”, not Gadol, Gaon, or Talmid Chacham.
ZD: Unfortunately, talking about the Agunah issue would quite literally rip the Moetzes in America into at least two pieces, maybe more. The Agudah (just like any other multi-headed body) has to know when it is best to be quiet for the sake of its own survival.
End story? Railing against smartphones is non-controversial in the Charaidi world, which is why they can do it.
They are so holy, that they saw a Tznius woman where you did not.
I have no idea what you are talking about (I don’t read every article, especially the recent ones about the tragic death), but agree with you that if there are such pictures, they should be taken down.
but their DAUGHTERS ALL WANT LEARNERS??
Sem or Niskatnu HaDoros, take your pick.
Typical Shadchanim don’t know what to do with you, as you don’t fit the mold. Girls out of Sem don’t look for working guys (in general, but this is not a Sem Bashing thread), and that is the typical shaddchan’s target.
My suggestion? Let your friends, co-workers, etc. know you are looking and want THEM to redd you shidduchim.
Hatzlacha.
Assaf – Sorry you didn’t realize that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, because that is what some people (like NK) would really say. I guess Poe’s law said I should have put a smiley. ZD did get it as meant.
P.S. I’m a Gavra@work, not an @Gavra_at_work. Certainly the middle at (or @) is superfluous.
LOL and Frown to Halevi.
How about Othello?
DY: I’m well aware of the arguments, and you can even say “inherently better” (Rav Moshe basically did). What you can’t say is that because that person doesn’t keep it, you have some maaleh over them, OR that they should start.
Aderabah, (IMHO) you (specifically, not just someone who has a chumrah) should feel “accomplished” (a better word than “smug”) as someone who is fulfiling their tachlis in life. We were put here to work, and those who work deserve to feel good about themselves. Of course, you don’t know what the other person’s nisyonos are, so they may have completed their tachlis as well (even if they are a mechalel shabbos), but you can feel good about your accomplishments.
DY: There is a chasm between valid and “Chumrah”. I can be Machmir while realizing that other Shittos are valid. There is no reason to feel superior and no reason to push your view when you agree that the other side is valid as well.
Case in point: Cholov Yisroel. Let’s say I am not Meikel and I’ll be smug in saying so :-). Rav Moshe says it is muttar. Is there any reason for me to be smug? Not really, as the other individual is following the undisputed Gadol HaDor. Any reason for me to push them to only use Cholov Yisroel? Once again, not really, for the same reason.
I think your point is true not regarding “Chumros”, but being a “Medakdek B’Halacha”, someone who is “careful” to follow Halacha. That person may drink Cholov Stam, but will double-check the Hechsher of the restaurant even though he sees Yidden eating there. Its the woman who askes the Rov the Marre instead of dropping it (one way or the other, CV). Its the guy who researches the Eruv, or asks his Rov, and looks into it, not just following the crowd. That’s not being “Frum”, its being a Yarei Cheit (and usually the only person who knows is you yourself, and your spouse) Kol HaKavod to someone like that, I envy them and their Olam Haba.
Its truly a shame that nobody here mentioned normal extra curricular activities like playing a musical instrument.
That is obvious. It is because it is Assur. Only the bums get a heter to play an instrument, because otherwise they might join Nachal Charaidi.
Sem613: Assuming DY is correct, the push for BMG guys certainly affects those who are not looking for that type. First it creates the marketplace, which is pro-boy. Second, the push for BMG-type boys overpopulates that group (as many boys won’t start working until after Sheva Brachos is over), and gives incentive to be a “learning boy” (as they get supported, which is a much easier life than having to go work). The girls who want to marry working boys are left with very few (yeshiva-type) boys to date, as they are all still learning.
T613: It certainly contributes to why the crisis is less severe in the Chassidish community.
Study (Learn Torah) overseas
Join social protests (in Kikar Shabbos)
Community service (teach Torah to underprivlidged youth)
Debate (what is Brairah)
Etc.
even girls who aren’t looking for BMG guys are having trouble finding shidduchim, don’t kid yourself that thats all that everyone wants and thats why theres a shidduch crisis
You have a pronoun “that’s” which is undefined. Are you telling me that girls do not ever reject guys (for any reason) because “all girls just want a shudduch”?
Remember, in Europe (and even now by Chassidim to some extent) the girls really don’t have much of a say in the matter.
poshute yid +1.
If BMG allowed it, children would go there just to say they are in BMG for “Shidduchim” purposes (he would be worth more years on the market). This way he actually has to put some time in first.
bigkhuna – You may be right, but that is too cynical for me.
The Goq – Not if you want the Chasivus of marrying a Lakewood Bochur. If girls were willing to marry without first looking at the prestige of their chassanim, the shidduch crisis would have been significantly reduced already.
Thanks Mods 🙂
the first “less” should be “fewer”. Sorry about that.
fixed
nishtdayngesheft:
You seem to condone such a ridicule.
I do not. Shalom Al Yisroel. 🙂
“Hisrachek” is as much as a source for Burkas as not eating Chummos. Maybe not eating Chummos is Richuk from Arayos? Eating techina certainly brings on Hirhurim and should be disallowed. Maybe we will allow Matbucha 😉
I don’t care what you or anyone else does in practice, Chumrah or Kula. I am offended that all of this money and time is spent to teach nothing. Even worse, they think they know “Halacha”, and try to pass it off onto others as a requirement. The girls are better off learning Satmar-style (we do it because Bubby did it), as I mentioned before. Bubby did not measure 4 inches (she probably didn’t own a ruler, and certainly not one that measured inches), Bubby did not wear a Burka, and Bubby would have been horrified to see her great-great granddusghters wearing all black. She would possibly think that it is an Ayin Hara for sitting shiva.
What Bubby did know is how to be a Tzanuah, run a Kosher and erlich home, and how to Kasher chickens (a lost art). Unfortunately, some parts of our society feel those values outdated, and stress bringing home the Flanken for your husband sitting in Kollel, while he learns fewer hours with less hasmadah than the businessman who works for the federal reserve.
In many ways, Satmar really does it right.
nishtdayngesheft: Please be more specific, as I’m not sure to what you are referring. I personally may (or may not) be Machmir in any of the items that I mentioned (as far as you know, I’m wearing a Burka as I write this
:-).
The answer was to a very specific question regarding telling others that they have to be more careful in Halacha. They do not when Rav Moshe or the Tchebiner Rov or Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach said that the action is muttar. I don’t see how anyone can disagree with that. That is certainly true if they asked their own Rov who tells them they can follow a specific P’sak.
If you have a (real, not someone’s made-up “good idea”) Mekor for 4 inches, Shechorim or Burkas, let me know (and start a new thread with the source). I’ve tried before with no success. That is opposed to real Halachic issues such as Yashan, Zimrah, Magen Avraham Kriyas Shema, Cholov Yisroel, etc. where if someone wants to be Yotze according to all shittos, then Tavo Alav Bracha. It is also opposed to a “style” of dress, such as shaved head & hat & shaitel, straimels, etc. which is “Derech Yisroel Saba” and a good reason in of itself, even without Halachic justification.
P.S. Do your Tefillin have Sirtut? 🙂
Oomis +1
DY: Looks like we agree.
And what if someone feels that everyone should be careful?
Why? If you can convince me that the Halacha is as such, then all well and good. I’ll go back and ask my Rov what should be done. But the items (e.g. the 4 inches once again, Lovesh Shechorim for women, Burkah Babes, etc.) which obviously have no Mekor whatsoever in Halacha (other than it being someone’s (Modern/Counter-Reformation) idea of a good thing), and the known and accepted Machlokesim (Separate seating on busses, Yoshan, Cholov Yisroel, etc.) there is no reason to argue one must be “careful” when there is a valid shittah that says you don’t.
WIY: Or someone who understands why we all don’t wear a Fez. Or that armor is heavy 😉 (in PBA style)
Apart: Agreed. Someone who uses tactics from last century to fight this year’s battle will certainly lose. Unless you want to say it is a Machlokes Napoleon vs. Voltaire.
Apart – If a prince goes to war wearing his suit of armor because 700 years ago that is what they wore to battle, he will soon be a dead prince. He certainly will not be effective on the battlefield.
If that is indeed true, than I take pity on them, but I would harldly consider it a curricular norm based on that report, sorry.
So we agree. Shalom Al Yisroel.
Apart – except for the tall Nebuch woman, who needs 4 1/2 inches and every time she gets up, she is not Tzanuah. 🙂
I have no problem with the “Kabbalah” people. They are not claiming that they understand, and were not taught. There certainly is a derech in Klal Yisroel for accepting that “this is what Bubby did”.
I never liked the “Bas Melech” argument. It certainly doesn’t hold water in our times, when the wives are going out to work (so the husbands can stay in Kollel). Once again here, in certain communities there is room for it.
syag: I wish you were right. I really do. 🙁
Syag Lchochma – Its the 4 inches that I find offensive. People are being taught things that have no basis in Halacha. This leaves us with Am HaAretz Jews who have a set of rules that they follow, but no understanding of why they exist or where they come from (or even if they make sense, which this one doesn’t).
My suggestion: Teach the Halacha (skirts must cover the knee at all times) as well as why (Kriyas Shema, Rishonim, etc.) and people should be able to understand what their own body covers require in order to follow the Halacha.
The term “frummer” is used, whether with a positive or negative connotation, to refer to keeping a more stringent halachic standard. By this commonly used definition, keeping extra chumros is synonymous with being “frummer”.
Rav Gifter ZTL used to say “A Galach (priest) is Frum, a Yid is Erlich”.
If I see someone with a skirt B’Davka 4 inches below (by watching them do the measurement, for example), I don’t make fun. I think Nebuch that someone was taught so wrong that they paid all that money for Bais Yaakov & Sem and still are Am Haratzos.
(I said that so Gavra won’t yell at me about tuition breaks.)
And so I will not. I actually agree with you here. If the couple is being supported by the Shver, that is the Shver’s problem (or delight, as he can leverage that into the couple living near him and get Nachas from the grandchildren), not the Klal’s. As such the Ramabam would not apply.
To be Melamed Zechus, it is difficult to say that a kollel boy who is being supported so that he can “start his life in learning” and is just “putting in time” is considered to be “Rabbanan” (As in “Ma Ahanu”).
TBT: That is not Yediyah. Even if the grandmaster knows the ultimate outcome, not knowing what move will be made next by any individual is a chisaron in the chess player’s Yediyas HaAsid.
LAB: Read it again with the question in mind.
Imagine it like this: Suppose you are a professional chef making chicago style deep dish pizza in cast iron skillets. You know how to make the recipe, and you know based on how you make each recipe how it is going to turn out differently. And you make each one the way that you intend for it to turn out. And it certainly does turn out that way.
Until a lightning bolt strikes your Pizza oven for comparing God to a pizza maker. Then it doesn’t turn out quite the way you expected.
🙂
Lab: You should have brought the Ramabam in Yesodei HaTorah. I believe it is more detailed (and a very interesting take on the whole question).
a typical method of election was to choose be at random and ask them to pick the leaders – since a leader in Jewish tradition is responsible for paying the community’s financial needs this was alway a very rich person – in fact in some communities they had a “CEO” with the title “Parnas”).
That’s what I said. A timocracy.
I totally don’t get this thread…
popa_bar_abba
Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a man; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.
Timocracy is the answer. Or 42. I forget which.
DY: I’ve been convinced that Popa is the typical semi-bored Yeshiva guy messing with everyone’s head. At least I disclose my real gender 🙂
I like my subtitle. It cautions me every time I post not to write Lashon Hara, Maligas Chachomim, or anything that might get me into trouble.
Poe’s law. I can’t tell if you are serious or not.
P.S. That’s not to say one should not send to BY (or jewish girls school), CV. Just that public school would not be an alternative.