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HaKatan: Thank you for answering my question. I see no further need to comment.
Hakatan: So can one have non-Jewish nationalisim for the Zionist state as either a resident or general good will (similar to the USA and Great Britain)? And if not, why?
HaKatan:
As you mention (and as we discussed in other threads), we had agreed that the issue with Zionism is as grouped with other “isms” that replace (or join equally with) Hashem and His Torah. I find it difficult to see that being the case with Talmidei Chachamim shuch as Rav Lichtenstien.
Nationalism in it of itself is not against the Torah. We certainly know that (for example), the Spanish Rishonim (e.g. Shmuel HaNagid) were pro-Spain and its kings. This goes back to Shmuel in Baval and his relationship with Shapur I. Even in the USA, the country is a Malchus Shel Chessed and we have a responsibility to support the country. That is not related at all to the religious aspect and our relationship to the RBSO (except perhaps for Dena D’Malchusa Dena) and does not replace it.
If you believe the issue with Zionism is Nationalism, let’s discuss in a different thread, as that issue has nothing to do with “Zionism” per say over supporting Canada if you are a Canadian, (C”V).
2) you’re on the wrong path and this is Hashem’s loving way of getting you to switch paths.
Since going to Sem is almost always the wrong path by definition, consider yourself lucky.
>:)
Word-of-the-Afternoon
Cabotage: n. the right of inter-country shipping.
The 1920 Jones Act disallows non-US ships from traveling between two US ports. It is the reason why NJ has no salt, and why there was a gas shortage during Sandy. It gets waived regularly as everyone agrees the law impeeds commerce, but it is a boon for the ship building industry in the US, so it is still on the books.
(PBA moment)
I liked the Joke!!!! Is was meant to be in the spirit of Purim. No one actually belives Haman did not try to actually kill us.
That part wasn’t the problem. Just felt your point flowed better without it.
Maybe try one of the joke threads
P.S. I believe even Satmar and the Briskers use the Israeli health care system, so even they are mishtatef with the Zionist state.
DY: And the Gemorah in Nedarim 000646 quoted uses the same pasuk for Bris Milah, not Limud HaTorah.
HaKatan:
The problem is that many people understand Rav Elchanon’s statement to be similar to modern day statements by Satmar and Rav Aurbach regarding Shmad and learning in Israel.
. . . Slight edit . . .
The Zionists at the time of Rav Elchanon and the Brisker Rov wanted to replace Hashem and the Torah with the “Jewish state”. There are a few “Religious Zionists” that may have believed that (e.g. the army’s directives outweigh halacha”), but even back then they were few and far in between, and certainly after Gaza. The “Religious” Zionists wanted to use the “state” as a tool so that Yidden would be Shomer Torah, and the (pre-war) issue was they were Mishtatef with Reshaim who wanted to destroy Klal Yisroel as Ovdei Hashem. At this point (post-Begin certainly), the vast majority of Torah Yidden hold similar to Rav Shteinman against the Brisker/Satmar Mehalech that some degree of cooperation is allowed. At no point did the Poskem of any Torah group who were mishtatef with Zionists do so by giving up the primacy of Hashem and His Torah, even pre-war, to be considered to be Ovdei Avodah Zara.
The only problem with what you said is that the it’s wrong. Torah has intrinsic value someone who sit’s and learns all day is actually very accomplishes.
But not for women. Why not?
DY – I disagree with your diyuk. I don’t think that statement, even as quoted, negates kiyum hamitzvos, his or hers, as not counting. It’s coming la’afukei from her learning (knowledge/accomplishment in learning).
I agree that is probably not what Rav Ahron meant, but being that it could be and is read by both men and women for their own purposes, it could have been said better.
I don’t know what you mean “the problem”. Also, if she sees her role of breadwinner as one of allowing him to learn, it’s not a stirah to traditionally defined roles and relationship (there is a danger of this financial arrangement being perceived differently; it’s a risk/reward balance).
Chazal never saw a woman’s “role” to be a breadwinner who supports her husband in learning. The “negative social impact”, even if she allows him to learn by working, is that she is now “in charge” of the familiy (by virtue of funding) and that changes her role. It certainly is possible that you will have a working woman who still defers to her learning husband at all times (as you point out), but the shift in responsibilities and by extension power/role is still there.
His comment, as quoted, addressed the knowledge, not the act of learning, so it’s not a stirah.
I don’t think you will find anyone who would begin to say that knowledge of Shas, even by a lowly female, is completely worthless and “nothing”. If we Paskened like Rabbi Yehuda, would that make Rav Yosef’s Torah worthless? Was Tavi’s Torah worthless? Rabban Gamliel certainly didn’t think so.
Logician – Got you. Thanks for clearing that up.
FYI, it is different than Gezairos, we we Pasken (in most cases) that they don’t apply if the reasoning is Batel. After all, when was the last time you saw people being Makpid on having Nessuin on a Wednesday or not burying due to Chavrai?
The point being that price is not a good way to determine importance.
Agreed.
Ben Levi: Shaychus? This is not a “Kollel vs. working” discussion, but rather an issue of who wears the “pants” in the home. If the wife works and the husband does not, she gets to wear the pants. You can’t say her role is to be Tzanuah and in the home and also her role is to be outside and working to support the family.
I think what you did not discuss (and should have) is that you believe men have an absolute advantage both in learning and in working, but a comparative advantage in learning. Therefore it is worthwhile for a woman to take a different (wrong for her) role to get the most out of the couple.
Logician: The shittah you described sounds to me exactly the shittah of Rabbi Mieselman in his new book (that certain halachos are true, but their reasons get re-interpeted by Meforshim (including Chazal) as people know more). I’m glad that I’m not the only one who is confused by the concept.
PBA: Importance != supply. Rabbaim would get paid more if fewer people would want to be a Rebbe. Babysitters would get paid more if there were fewer babysitters.
And yes, the feminist movement, despite some worthy accomplishments, such as equal pay for equal work, was created to define men:s and women’s roles differently. Despite the fact that the Torah world has taken some advantage of the situation by tapping into women’s ability to earn money in order to allow for the men to learn more, it’s hard not to see the negative social impact.
Lishitasi, this IS the problem. You can’t have the woman bringing home the beef and still be telling her that her “role” is to support a husband in Kollel. In homes where the husband is the main (or equal) supporter of the family, the roles of the husband and wife are more clearly defined as per how Hashem created us.
men and women were created with different tafkidim in this world. Our modern society has flipped those roles and that’s why we no longer value the system the way it was meant to be.
Modern Society = “When you marry a Kollel guy” Seminaries that push the woman to support. Place the blame where it belongs.
SJS, good to see you here.
DY – The question as quoted from Rav Aharon says that all that counts is the husband’s learning. (“Even if a woman knows all of Shas, it means nothing. It is her husband’s learning that counts.”) Not her role in running the household, instilling Emunah and continuing the Shalsheles. The first is a vicarious role, while the second is her own accomplishment.
As I pointed out earlier, if all that counts is her husband’s learning, who really cares what she does?
golfer – sure, and if a man does the same (carpools to yeshiva, helps his sons & sons in law learn, etc.), it helps him earn schar as well. If a woman learns, she gets schar as well. No shaychus to being specifically in a supportive role vs. an individual role.
“Even if a woman knows all of Shas, it means nothing. It is her husband’s learning that counts.” (his biography I think?)
Women are not Chayiv in Limud Hatorah, so them “knowing” Shas is not their point. This has nothing to do with “Kol Kevodah”, intelligence or the ability to drink tea. Knowing Shach/Taz on the other hand is a Mitzva D’oraysah even for women.
That being said, the Rambam holds women get Schar for Limud HaTorah, so I imagine the statement of “means nothing” was only hyperbole, as she certainly gets schar.
Rambam Talmud Torah 1:16
???? ????? ????, ?? ?? ???; ??? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ???????, ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????, ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????. ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???, ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????: ???? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ????, ??? ?????? ????.
To the OP: I don’t think anyone is saying the women only deserve schar for being in a supportive role. If it did, then their actions would not matter for good or evil, and that would be Kefirah.
DY – Thanks.
HaKatan, JE & DY:
Going back to the original discussion, there is no comparison between France and Israel (AKA the Zionist State). Al pi Halacha, we go after Rov for many things. For example, I have heard Rav Chaim holds it is Assur to give blood if Rov says it will go to an Aino Yehudi (due to the Issur of Oseh Chaburah), while in Israel it is a Mitzava of Hatzolas Nefashos. Agree or disagree, the parameters are still true. Someone who is a soldier in France (or the USA) Al Pi Rov is protecting Aino-Yehudim, vs. in Israel he is Al Pi Rov protecting Yidden. Somewone who is protecting Yidden deserves our Hakaras HaTov and our Tefilos. Of course, a specific person who protects Yidden (such as a policeman in front of a shul in London) also deserves our Hakaras Hatov & Tefilos. This is going on a non-specific soldier.
This conceptually would be true in any area of Rov Yidden where protection is offered without discrimination (such as Shomrim in Williamsburg), no matter what the government is.
Can someone explain with clarity and brevity exactly what the problem is with zionism?
Zionism, like Yiddishism, Bundism, Charaidism and Communism, seeks to replace the centrality of the Ribbono Shel Olam to the Jewish people with something else (The Israeli state, Yiddish culture, assimilation, isolation and Tikun Olam, respectively).
🙂
P.S. Being a Charaidi is not the problem, no less than being a Quaker. It’s making it into an “ISM” (similar to my earlier posts on the thread) that make it a problem.
rabbiofberlin – NYC water is not filtered (although clorine & florine may be added). See the NYC.GOV website for more details.
Ashrecha DaasYochid that you are willing to look into this serious Chashash. This (Tolaim) is Gufo Shel Torah.
P.S. I did not do so myself, but it was reported to me first hand by a Machgiach who is a good friend of mine (who thereby convinced me to avoid strawberries).
I also respectfully request that the mods allow the following link, which gives Rav Moshe Vaye’s guidelines for checking:
http://www.dinonline.org/Bedikat/almonds/
The list of items is on the left. Also be aware that the chiyuv to check depends on location, that is also noted there.
DY:
1: Clean strawberry with soap
2: Place strawberry on black garbage bag
3: Smash strawberry with hammer
4: Watch little white dots scurry out of smashed strawberry
5: Are you sure you want to eat a strawberry?
P.S. Rabbi Vaye (Bedikas HaMazon) suggests either cooking/blending (after washing with soap 3 times) or peeling strawberries. Otherwise he says not to eat them.
Avram in MD:
Create a European union type Superstate over the entire county.
This would be done as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinians and include the West Bank and Gaza, or would this only be in effect within the pre-1967 borders?
Either one would work. External security (if need be) could be provided by the Chinese & Americans via a joint base.
Then split it into 5 federal states:
This would seemingly ease the stepping on toes among groups, but how would it solve anything in HaKatan’s world view (e.g., the three oaths, Zionism, etc.)
Because there is a “superstate”, the Charaidim would simply getting their autonomous area within a larger non-Zionist state.
4: The seculars
Assuming this plan arose from my hypothetical situation where everyone came around to HaKatan’s view of Zionism – I’m not sure there would still be seculars. The views of the religious Zionists would also be quite changed.
I disagree. The “Zionists” of our time don’t really believe in Zionism anyway. The religous Zionists would still want to have their own area. Think of the Bayit Yehudi voter (although they would possibly be willing to go in with the seculars).
Full population swap,
This would cause considerable hardship and resentment.
So would any other “peace” agreement. You could have people stay where they are but lose citizenship rights (but be allowed to naturalize), similar to Switzerland naturalization laws.
taxation, benefits, laws, security, etc. only from the federal state.
You mean from the Euro Union style state, or each individual state?
Each individual state.
HaKatan:
Create a European union type Superstate over the entire county. Then split it into 5 federal states:
1: The Charaidim
2: The religious Zionists (who would still be there)
3: The Arabs
4: The seculars
5: Yerushalaim (as a jointly ruled city, similar to the Clancy plan).
Full population swap, taxation, benefits, laws, security, etc. only from the federal state.
HaKatan: Once again, it isn’t the issue that I’m dealing with, but rather the methods. “Depends” means whether you join together with Muslim businessmen and denounce the Gedolim for disagreement with their shittah. I did not see Reb Avrohom Yehoshua do either (probably for the simple reason that he was too busy learning!). Others who promote Anti-Zionism over other mitzvos did do so.
Betzem holding of the Shalosh Shevuos is in no way Avoda Zara, just like holding of Tikkun Olam or learning Nach (or even loving Eretz Yisroel) is not Avoda Zara. It just depends how far off the reservation you go with it.
Sof Sof, I think we are basically in the same place.
Shalom Al Yisroel.
P.S. what didn’t you like about my idea to partition the state?
Seeing how much attention YWN gave to one “Kanye West” when he did Teshuva after saying Jews have all the “connections”,
Kanye West Admits Jew Comment Was An ‘Ignorant Compliment’ He Wants To Take Back
Is his music now “Jewish”? 🙂
Does doing a cover of “Genghis Khan” (as well as many others, see Wikipedia) make that singer’s music non-Jewish? How about Bob Dylan? The Beastie Bochrim? The Bach? (I challenge anyone here to say the Bach wasn’t Kosher) (as I am listening to Das Wohltemperierte Klavier). Louie Armstrong singing about Shadrach? Shackles (Praise You) by Mary Mary? Black Hattitude?
I have to agree with Oomis here. Whatever brings you closer to Hashem within the realm of Halacha is “Jewish”, no matter who sings it.
Is there any limud z’chus?
Depends how loudly you read along when you get an Aliyah:
??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???????
Megillah 21B. (Also see Rambam, SA & KSA on Kriyas HaTorah) If anything, he was correct in encouraging his congregation to sing along.
P.S. I did not see the video, but rather would like to discuss the Halachic aspect.
ZD (and everyone else):
Being that we have had this discussion before, I will ask the same question: Would killing the infant Maria Schicklgruber (or even her son, Alois Schicklgruber) be moral or immoral?
(I’ll risk Godwin, as it brings out the point very well).
HaKatan:
The choice of words, calling “mainstream” anti-Zionism (i.e. the Torah’s view) an A”Z, is poor and also offensive to the Torah…
I did not do any such thing, as I specifically excluded the Brisker Mehalech (which I believe is your’s as well). What I did include are those who have protests against the Gedolim (such as Rav Shteinman) and those who partner with Muslim businesssmen who want to destroy the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel (Zionist or not). Once again, the reason why I call it “Avoda Zara” is because any Mitzva can become Avoda Zara, when it becomes the Ikar over all other Mizvos, which get pushed out of the way for it.
The way I see it, this is where we are:
Brisker – OK
Neturei Karta – Not OK
Satmar – depends.
DY: We’ve had this argument before, I see no need to rehash the sides. You won’t know until you try, and Rav Shteinman has made the Daas Torah decision not to try.
Naftush: Huh?
ZD: I don’t believe you are correct. Even without the army, the Charaidim would still maintain their isolation from Israeli society (and Kol Hakavod). They would still not be “employable” in many areas due to the socialist type economy (as others have posted here), and lack of basic education (which is the real Shanda). Allowing for more free enterprise would enable Charaidim who want to open small businesses to do so. The problem with basic education is that the government want them to also teach “history AKA Zionism”. If they would agree on math, basic science & basic English (language) (so that the typical Charaidi boy in Israel has a similar limudei Mitzva education as a typical KJ boy or Riverdale Bochur), that would be a step forward.
BSD
Hakatan: If anything, your story with Brisker Rav proves my point. Those who are anti-zionist but don’t make it an Avoda Zara will talk to those who can get things done when needed. In some cases it may be an MK, others it may need to be the PM. Those who make it into Avoda Zara would rather discuss how to destroy the state (killing many yidden in the process) with Sonei Yisroel than discuss how to help Yidden with someone who isn’t even a Zionist.
As far as your second point, Rav Chaim’s statement of 100 years ago (IMHO) has no bearing on today. To compare the idf to the Russian army or jews for j is just hyperbole and doesn’t deserve a rebuttal. I think we will have to agree to disagree.
BSD
DY:
First and foremost, thanks for the marre makom. I did take a quick look, and have the following comments.
If all that the group would do is be “Anti-Zionist”, I would have no issues (although they should be consistant and not accept the government’s health insurance either (which I believe they do take the government insurance, but am not 100% certain). What makes it Avoda Zara is the emphasis that certain groups put on the single issue (as opposed to the Briskers, who don’t) and the other Avairos that come out of it (such as those that I linked above) in the zeal to be Machmir on this one issue. Come to think of it, it is quite similar (at first glance) to the Avoda Zara of “Tikkun Olam” that the reform created.
I have no Hava Amina that Lapid, etc. wants for our good (R. Lipman is a different issue). I just argue (as I have in the past) that the current concern of the non-religious in Israel is not in us following Hashem (as opposed to 70-80 years ago, when there were real Zionists), but rather in them paying for it. (In h=this way, they are not “Sonaim” per say, but just want to be left alone). If those who want to learn and not be drafted in Israel would agree not to take funding (similar to the Satmar shittah), I still strongly believe that the government would allow the Charidim to learn in peace without being subject to the draft. (Once they stop learning full-time, they would be subject to the draft and once again allowed to get benefits). Details could be worked out via negotiation. This way no one would be thrown in jail for not going to the draft board (like all other Charidim in Israel do), let alone for learning instead of going to the army.
To make a comparison that was used in the sefer, Yidden were drafted into all of the armies of Europe. Certainly a Jewish oriented army where they try (and mostly do) accomadate the Charaidi Chumrahs, let alone pure Halachah, would be less of an issue.
And no, the government is NOT mechuyav to support anyone. If you want their money, you have to play by their rules, no matter what they are.
Narrow Bridge. Trust the railings, and don’t climb over.
DY: Exactly. Good catch.
???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????:
newhere & PBA: Putting in measures to reduce demand is not laissez-faire capitalism. What would Mises say about measures to reduce demand (such as sales taxes, or the subsidization of substitutes), or even a government ad campaign against a certain product?
As before, the right answer is somewhere in the middle. Not laissez-faire capitalism/’rational self-interest’, and not Marxism. Somewhere in the middle.
DY: No, but I just downloaded it from Hebrewbooks.org and plan on reading it. Any specific pages you think I should concentrate on?
I’ll also mention that 70 years ago (and certainly earlier), I would have agreed with HaKatan. The Zionists were, like the Bundists & Yiddishists, out to destroy Klal Yisroel. That has not been the case since after the Holocaust (even with the Yaldei Taiman (for a different thread)), and certainly not after Begin and the Charaidim joining the government.
Thanks for the Maare Makom (and backing me up yesterday).
Suppose every Israeli woke up this morning and said, “you know what, HaKatan was right all along. Zionism is avoda zara.” What exactly should their next step be? To surrender to Hamas?
Create a European union type Superstate over th entire county. Then split it into 5 federal states:
1: The Charaidim
2: The religious Zionists (who would still be there)
3: The Arabs
4: The seculars
5: Yerushalaim (as a jointly ruled city, similar to the Clancy plan).
Full population swap, taxation, benefits, laws, security, etc. only from the federal state.
I suppose you know better than Torah giants like, to name a few, from the 1800s through today, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, the Chazon ish, Rav Shach, Rav Aharon Kotler, three generations of Brisker Rabbanim including, lihavdil bein chaim liChaim, Rav Meshulam Dovid Shlit”A.
Exactly my point. Even the Chazon Ish met with Ben Gurion to work out needed issues, and did not sacrifice halachic observance of the Klal on the ????? of Zionist hatred. Rav Aharon Kotler used to travel to Israel to get people to vote for Gimmel. Lu Yehiye Eretz Yisroel would be ruled by the king of Jordan, would we not need to work with him?
I suppose you know better than the Chazon Ish and Rav Aharon?
popa_bar_abba:
????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????
????? ????? ?? ???? ???????
BB 166
newhere: Its not making the price, but recognizing that prices are too high and taking measures to lower it. Think of it as the president waiving the Jones act in the aftermath of a disaster.
I read this thread in the Kollel Store where the 3 customers ahead of me are using eBt Cards
Charaidi Jews are certainly pro-socialism. Note how the Gedolim complain any time a benefit of some sort gets cut.
When a secular government is deciding what laws to put in place, just as you would not advocate for them banning the sale of cheesburgers, you shouldn’t advocate for them adopting the Gemara’s rules on monetary issues.
I’m not sure I agree with this. The Torah certainly holds that one must have the “Eipha Tzedek” as stated in the Torah. There also needs to be a system of Dinim and a system of taking care of the poor. The tannaim would “break the market” if needed to allow neccesities to be affordable (see: Rabban Gamliel & Kinim).
That is not to say that we should all start being Marxists. There is a medium between Rand (who promotes pure Middas Sedom) and Marx (who promotes what the Mishna in Avos 5:10 calls “am HaAretz”), and the question is where that is. Certainly intervention to protect the consoumer in under the catagory of “Eipha” and IMHO is a chiyuv on all Beni Noach (as part of Dinim). Go from there.
newhere – the last half of the fith perek in Bava Basra discusses how laissez-faire capitalism is against the Torah. Ayin Shom.
“This is terrible. A case of politics determining what should be solely a religious determination.”
I agree as well. The problem is that the position of the Israeli Chief Rabbinate is inherently political, and is therefore influenced by political considerations. If the Rabbinate was not funded by the government, then they would not have needed to bend to the pressure, as they would not be seen as an arm of the Israeli government.
PBA – And so what? Are American or British non-frum Jews Jewish?
🙂
HaKatan – Only to someone like you. I’m very sorry that you can’t (and I don’t expect you to) understand. Everyone else here does.
I move that this thread be deleted. Too many references to Gilui Arayos.
The question is how does one “find yourself a new Rebbe”.
Without knowing any specifics, I assume your Rebbe had his own Rebbe, who had many Talmidim. That’s where I would start, with a talmid of your Rebbe’s Rebbe who has a similar outlook in life.
I would describe a top notch girl as solidly hashkofik Bais Yaakov girl, willing to support a husband because she sees the chashivus of Torah.
According to the Lakewood Shadchanim, the support needs to be up-front, not just a “working girl”. Working girls have children and eventually get worn out. PHD’s will still take care of the home (and themselves) while the boy sits and learns.
Top notch boys deserve to come home to a clean and calm house, where they can relax before going back to night seder. Not taking care of children because the wife needs a break from her 18 hour workday (between work, commute and children).
WIY 🙂
Photo Essay: Satmar Of Kiryas Yoel Holds Anti-Israel Protest In Manhattan On Tuesday Afternoon
Satmar Organizing Another Anti-Israel Protest Next Week in Manhattan
Report: Satmar Rebbe Met With Muslim Billionaires To Explain Opposition To Israel
VIDEO: One Person Protests Satmar Chosid Holding Disgusting Sign Against Gadol Hador
Enough said. When you play with fire, you get burned.
I have to agree with Halevi. First it was Zmamim. Then it was anti-Zionism, which is not inherently bad, but they made it into its own Avoda Zara. Then it was voting for candidates who were pro-Arayos, but were willing to deliver Kesef. The fighting among brothers and going to the secular courts. And now finally this is where we end up.
Rabbosai, we need to take this to heart. Check your maassim. This should be a wake-up call to all of us. We should not rely on the government and support their anti-Torah shittos. They certinly will not be there when needed, but the RBSO will if you just trust in him and not political machinations.
Even though you had to do so twice 🙂