gavra_at_work

HaKatan (Since the Mods won’t let me say it): What end result would make you satisfied with the situation in Eretz Yisroel, short of all of our hopes for the arrival of Moshiach?

HaKatan:

Again, outside of Israel, there is no stigma for any young woman if her father is working. In fact, this is the norm. Only in Israel is there a problem of society considering you second class because you do not learn full time.

ROB: They DO NOT get money from their fathers in law. They get it from people like you (who give to mishulachim from EY) and from the Israeli government. Some get stipends from their own Chassidus, who may have a big American G’vir who gives to the Chassidus.

DY: Agree and disagree. I agree that it is the government policies, but disagree that it is the difficulty. It was the ease of learning full time and going on government funding in the 90’s & 00’s (promoted by Charaidi parties with a helping hand from others) that started the society on this path.

Before then many if not most “Charaidim” (as defined today) would have joined the army. More importantly, it was an acceptable path anywhere outside of the NK types. Now it isn’t, and that will be very hard to change, even if they are allowed to work. Who will be the first to have their daughter stigmatized by having a working father? Who will allow their son to marry such a girl?

(This is why I disagree with Yesh (or Ain) Atid as well. They are working off of bad assumptions so they push the draft. What is more important? Sitting in jail (while you will just learn there like you did outside) or marrying off your daughters?)

DaasYochid: Interesting and good point. I would love to follow up, but the CR is not the place for it.

Good for you that you are going. I first want to hear what my Rov & boss have to say. If I go, I’ll be the guy with the $10.10 minimum wage sign

🙂

Boruch Hashem the event went well.

DY: The problem is you are one of few who actaully give Hakaras HaTov. If all the Charaidim in Israel would be like you, then we wouldn’t be having the whole Shivyon B’Netel issue. Most (I would imagine) are more like HaKatan at best (I don’t hold of the whole state) or like some of the commenters on the main page (It’s your fault), or at worst (like Gafni) those who work and/or are in the army are viewed as those who solely exist to pay for Charaidim to learn, because only the Charaidim are worth anything.

What you (DY) don’t realize is that your Hakoras HaTov (and I believe you really mean it) would get your children removed from school in some communities who then turn around and demand money from the Zionist government. Good for you (and me) that as Americans you can answer what you did, as an Israeli you couldn’t have (or your children would be going to the army as well, take your pick).

golfer: That is ONE answer (which I already brought). What do other Rishonim say? Achronim? Lomdus? I’m not closing the thread once we finally got into chilukim!

Considering the fact that women in Yerushalyim are invited as well as children. I think you are already wrong.

Got it. Waive Tznius (Leshitasam) for a political event.

I hope you will not see many women.

Not necessarily. The Rambam seems to disapprove of women learning in most situations. It is easily possible that if Hashem does not want you to do a mitzva and you do it anyway, that there is no schar.

“Disapprove” != Hashem not wanting you to do it. I agree in cases where there is a Gezairah (such as Lulav on Shabbos) that you should ask the question, but not here.

Contrast the Halacha by an Isha to that by an Eved, where in YD 267:71 it says that it is ASSUR to teach an Eved Torah. There I would say that you have room to argue that there is no Schar.

I also challenge you to be Mechalek between the cases.

FIRST REPORT: Massive Yom Tefilla Being Scheduled In Manhattan

Good. Lets see what the details look like. It may be hard to do on such short notice. IIRC last time they did this there was a very large crowd.

“HKBH will decide who puts in more effort.”

which is why the answer to “how much is it worth” is, only hashem can assign a value. each person and his or her circumstances are different.

Unless the answer is “nothing”. If we can agree the answer is not “nothing”, then we have accomplished one of my main goals in this thread.

That last comment makes you sound very bitter about SOMETHING. Why exactly should an enabler of Torah get all/most of the reward over the ones who learns ?

The same reason why the enabler of Tzedaka gets more reward than the one who gives it (Offen a Gemorah). In many cases, it is harder to be the enabler than the doer (as interjection

points out) and L’fum Tzara Agra.

For 12+ years we are graded on, not on how well we learned the Torah but rather on how well we understand our teacher’s interpretation of the Torah. We are conditioned to learn Torah in the way that you explained with fluffy mussar lessons, while the boys are taught more to focus on what the Torah said, rather than on what they wished the Torah said. So it’s no wonder that our learning patterns later on in life reflect how we were taught to learn.

+1000000. One of my pet peeves is that BY & Sems don’t teach real sources.

golfer:

Modern scientific advances in brain mapping continue to confirm that a woman’s brain does function differently than a man’s brain, and both are superior in different areas.

Maasim Bechol Yom we see that they can “absorb the knowledge in a disciplined manner” (and certainly in the secular world). Are you willing to claim “Nishtane HaTeva”? And if you are right, why are women taught Nach with Meforshim, which also needs “discipline” similar to learning Gemorah?

Sam: 35B might be a source that Mikrah is Muttar (and maybe even a Mitzva, depending on your Girsah and Pshat), but if you have that as a P’sak Halacha, I would like to see it inside.

Thanks again.

DY: The reason why they made it on a sunday is so that other cities can join on their day off. Otherwise for Charaidim who don’t work anyway, Sunday is no different than any other day.

Sam2: Thanks. Whether there is a Chiyuv of limud for woman as applied to mitzvos that they are chayiv in certainly does seem to be a widespread Machlokes. My quote is not relevant to that point, as limmud with a practical application still subsumes the practical application.

Thanks again.

Bump

Is nobody going?

Logician – Because the statement that a woman should not be taught by her father Torah is completely irrelevant to a woman who does learn (but I did bring it for completeness). I’m ignoring the issue of “role” (verboten) and dealing with a Halachic question from that thread that (I feel) was misrepresented and closed.

The basic idea of this thread (at this point, these things seem to morph) is: Can we all agree that a woman’s Torah learning is not “nothing”? Are there any Rishonim that disagree? Can someone explain to me why the Halacha is different than an Eved, even though L’Cheorah they are from the same limudim and have the same Chiyuv?

Furthermore, if they do get Schar for learning, shouldn’t they should do so in practical Halacha (such as Basar V’Chalov/Taaruvos), which all Yidden are chayiv in from the mitzva of “Lahavdil bain HaTamei U’Bain HaTahor”, and not Yalkut Shimoni?