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BS”D
DY, Sam2: Better, but still not there yet. Of course Chadash is an exception, but still the point is true. One should certainly be machmir on D’oraysahs before d’rabbanan, and d’rabannan before Minhag, and Minhag before who knows where music during sefirah came from. That 20 years ago people didn’t listen to music on Walkmans does not make a minhag in the age of Ipods. Who and where did the P’sak come from? Remember, the concept of portable music player didn’t exist 30-35 years ago, so you can’t say that was a minhag. And if we are discussing live music, Klal Yisroel has paskened (by the proliferation of concerts) like the Rama. (The why certainly is a good question, but the justification is more halachicly sourced than Chadosh). On Sefirah, for music that is danced to, then the SA is a source.
Music on sefirah doesn’t exist in the Gemorah (and neither does sefirah itself), the Rishonim, the Shulchan Aruch, etc. If the source is an Iggros Moshe that is heavily weighted against music as is, and we (as in Klal Yisroel) don’t really follow the teshuva, where did the issur come from?
Git: Great, I have your Heter. 🙂
The “Issur” of music (as mentioned by others) is not in Shulchan Aruch or Mishna Berurah, so there is really no reason to start. How about going around with ashes on your head? Isn’t that what you should do for Shiva?
DY: Yup, but there are Klalim. For example (as you brought) we are Machmir on Chometz for Pesach. Period. If we weren’t, Nisht Gebrokts would have been laughed out of existence (even Rebbe Meir wouldn’t hold of it!!). Another one is that we are Maikel by Safek D’Rabbanans. Yet another is that we (Ashkenazim) pasken like the Rama.
I stand by my point (at least for now).
Aderaba, it is better to listen to non-Jewish A-Capella (as long as it is via a speaker) than live “Jewish” (and how “Jewish” is it) music that includes instruments throughout the year. Pashtus from reading Rav Moshe in Iggros 1:166 (last 2 lines).
Personally, if Klal Yisroel can be Meikel like the Bach for Chodosh (which is M’dioraysa), they certainly can be Somech on the Rama, Tos. & Rashi for Zimrah.
We have a kaballah to rely on for proof that HaShem created the world and isn’t just playing tricks on us.
So you claim. Who says the idea wasn’t planted in your mind to make you a docile battery?
What’s the difference between the world existing and us believing that it does?
Nothing. Since the world is only a “Yesh” as long as the Ribbono Shel Olam decides to keep it that way, it makes no difference whether we actually exist (as the beings and entity that we see) or not.
man made global warming
Try COW made global warming
Agriculture is responsible for an estimated 14 percent of the world’s greenhouse gases. A significant portion of these emissions come from methane, which, in terms of its contribution to global warming, is 23 times more powerful than carbon dioxide. The U.S. Food and Agriculture Organization says that agricultural methane output could increase by 60 percent by 2030 [Source: Times Online]. The world’s 1.5 billion cows and billions of other grazing animals emit dozens of polluting gases, including lots of methane. Two-thirds of all ammonia comes from cows.
(Howstuffworks.com)
akuperma – Please prove to me that you are NOT in the Matrix (since you brought it up).
APY 🙂
oomis – interesting, because I heard that the Five Towns (Cedarhust) is much LESS expensive than Far Rockaway. For example, Zillow has a “normal” (1185 sq. foot) size house at 726 Elvira Ave sold in 2011 for 995K. A similar house in Inwood might be in the 400K area, while a much larger house in Cedarhurst, 362 Oak ave, was sold last year for 710K.
My understanding is with the new Rabbis (Rabbi Forst & Rabbi Feiner) Far Rockaway has become the new “in” location that new couples want to move to. This is especially (as you note) that Far Rockaway has relatively low property taxes.
I have a cousin who is very happy in Inwood, which is right next to Far Rockaway. Perhaps that should also be on your short list?
To add to Oomis, from what I hear Far Rockaway is considered to be a “prestigious” location (I know, who would have thought) and housing prices have gone through the roof. Both of those areas have an eruv and are basically served by the same amenities (although there is the LIRR vs. the subway, maybe Oomis can tell you more).
Perhaps if you can describe why you want to move to the Far Rockaway area, the CR can better help you.
???????? ???????, ?????-???; ?????? ????? ?????????, ?????????? ????????? ??????? ???-??????, ???????????????-??? ??????????? ???, ????? ?????? ????? ??????
Melachim bais 🙂
HaKatan quoting R’ Eliyahu Fink. It is truly a day of Nissim Geluyim!!
🙂
ymbyi – Israel is also the only “democratic” (and even that is questionable) country where it is acceptable to be an open anti-Semite, as long as you hate the right (or wrong) type of Jew (and that comes from both sides of the spectrum).
Rav Vosner paskens that snowpants are muttar for women to wear. I’ve posted the marre makom before (but am too lazy to look it up now).
“When individuals, regardless of vocation or title, grant license to women to don tefillin, nolens volens, they validate the insidiousness of egalitarianism.”
I think what I’m not sure about here is “license” and “validate”. Our society (for good or evil) has allowed itself to use pesakim as a means to validate their behavior, both on the left and the right. Mostly, this is a bad thing, as one needs to have their own Rov who can pasken based on their own needs. I’m also very concerned about this concept being adopted by others who will twist it for their own purposes. I still don’t see a single psak in what is explicitly explained to be an exception validating actions by others, but after thinking about it am also aware that my view is clouded by my values of the individual psak which society does not share.
All that being said, if Rabbi Twerski feels that he would rather allow these girls go to a conservative school due to fear of allowing an opening for anti-Torah values, its not my place to argue. I’m glad that I don’t have to make that decision.
This is not a chicken shailah. This has global ramifications, and if Rabbi Harczstark doesn’t realize this, that would prove to me that Rabbi Twersky’s and nishtdayngesheft’s assessment of his competence is correct.
Not a Chicken Shailah? The chicken Shailah also has “Global Ramifications” if it is answered in our “Global” world. Look at Dohaney Meats and the disaster (and Bizayon HaTorah) that ended up being.
That is exacly what I am asking you to opine on. What makes something a “Global Ramifications” shailah (and therefore must be passed by the shul Rov straight to Rav Shteinman or Rav Vosner (or maybe Rav Shachter is also allowed)), and what can he pasken himself? Or is the shul Rov not allowed to Pasken at all, since any question can be “Global” if the response gets into the wrong hands who will learn the wrong things from it?
A reminder on what Chazal said in Bava Basra 89B (and I’ve quoted this elsewhere):
?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? (???? ??) ?? ????? ???? ?’ ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ??
To elaborate a bit, if what Rabbi Twerski is suggesting is that he would rather push the 18th century girls to the local Freischule where they will be completely lost than try to keep them doing Mitzvos and keeping Halacha (albeit with a Kulah that is not preferred), than I can’t agree. That goes right back to my main point regarding a Shul rabbi (or school principal) having leeway to be maikel (via a valid shittah) against “normative” Halacha due to extenuating circumstances.
DY: My original point to Nisht discusses Rabbi Twerski’s point, and his analogy to an organ on Shabbos:
I would hope that even you would agree that the analogy is highly flawed. Why not straight out compare it to two high school girls who feel closer to Hashem by worshiping Jesus? On the other hand, one can also compare it to two girls who really want to hear Shofar on Rosh Hashana (to which it is certainly closer). Why compare it to one over the other?
And further down:
P.S. I actually (think I) have a very good analogy. A Sephardi girl who wants to make Brachos on Mitzvos Asah SheHazamn Grama.
IMHO, it is an overreach that takes away from his main point that the Remo is authoritative for Ashkinazim.
P.S. On a Yom Chol, on headphones, I would have thought there is no reason why they can’t listen.
Who says this is the best pshat?* Rabbi Harcsztark was not claiming his pshat was the best pshat, just the most convenient for him.
Hear hear. If you read the letter to parents, I don’t think that he agrees this is the best P’shat, rather that this is what is best for these specific girls (and probably NOT convenient for him to have to deal with the fallout). This is opposed to the RAMAZ pricipal who made a blanket statement that he would have no problem with it.
As others have stated, it was with tzitis. Regardless, you didn’t answer my question. Did you even read it?
Oomis and I obviously misread your question. With your new post and explanation, I’ll try again.
If the question is “How can I become closer to Hashem”, it would probably work best (as has been posted here quoting from those bigger than us) to get closer to Hashem by working to have serious Tefilah and recognizing that Hashem has His hashgacha in everything. Recognize once a day outside of Tefilah and thank Hashem for what He does (that may be from Rabbi Miller, but I don’t remember off-hand).
Nothing to do with tefilin (for either a guy or girl). I do apologize for misunderstanding your question.
I don’t understand, Gavra, the R’ma, Gr’a, M’B say it’s assur. The mainstream psak follows the Kol Bo.
BS”D
DY: Once again, I don’t really disagree with the (very narrow) point regarding women wearing Tefilin. Like I said, it is similar to a Sephardi girl who wants to say Brachos on Miztvos Aseh SheHazman Grama, where we would tell her that we Pasken like Maran who says not to. It is possible that a Rov might say to be somech on the Ramo in a Shaas HaDechak (and I don’t know if this is a Shaas HaDechak or not where he could be somech on the Rambam), and maybe even on an individual basis (as the next paragraph discusses), but to welcome it (Ashkenazi tefillin wearing or Sephardi brocha making girls) as a general rule in an Ashkanazi or Sephardi institution (resp.) would certainly not be advised.
The larger question flows from the issue made of who is “Raui LeHoros”, and be somech on a shittah that is not “mainstream”, but is still valid. Does a shul Rov have the right to advise a shoel who is his mispallel to allow what would be considered against “normative” Halacha if he feels it appropriate under the circumstances (even if it may not be a slam-dunk “Shaas Hadechak”)? Or does he have to ask the “Gadol HaDor” as Rabbi Twerski suggests? This (at first glance) would be similar to the shtetel Rov who allowed the Almanah to eat the chicken that had the shailah, even though it isn’t really a shaas hadechak not to have chicken on shabbos (and I would have thought here too it would be allowed).
I’m looking forward to your thoughts.
DaasYochid – IIRC, Na Nach was told to someone in a dream, and it somehow became the central mantra of Breslov. I could have also said via fax from the Rebbe, but that might be from the Ohel, not the Kever itself (after all, he still hasn’t run out of fax paper and ink yet! Must be transubstantiating it out of the air).
I now see that is was a paper found in a book. Same idea, is finding a paper in a book a “competent halachic authority”?
But it is a serious question. At what point (if any) does a Rov think even though I understand the sugyah, and I have others who agree with me, he can not say “If you want to go ahead, you can be Somech on that shittah”? Especially here where there is no real “Issur” involved, vs. a case where the alternative would result in Issurei D’Oraysa (such as a possibly traif chicken).
APY: It doesn’t exactly, but conceptually it is the same. One who rebukes but has their own sins should expect the rebuked to throw those sins back at the rebuker, and therefore ignore the rebuke.
Nisht: Once again, all you have is an ad-hominem attack, this time on me. You don’t have to respond if you don’t want to do so, but if you do, please make it substantial.
APY: Because unfortunately, people get ideas in their heads due to the outside world. Then when told NO, it becomes forbidden fruit, which Chazal say is more tempting than “nomative” Avodah.
DY: You may be right, but the concept would be the same. Thanks for chiming in, and I would love to hear what you have to say.
this entire discussion smacks of the very xtian concept “let he who is without sin cast the 1st stone”.
We had it first and they stole it from us! See Bava Basra 15B.
??”? ????? ??? ????? (??? ?) ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? <?????> [?????] ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? (?????? ?) ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????
To the OP: The reason people fight back is because it affects us personally. Like Oomis said in the Tefilin thread, once someone starts a Chumrah, it becomes mandatory or your child will not be able to get married. So you have to fight just to make most of the Klal’s current position acceptable.
On the other side, if a foreign idea is seeping into Yiddishkeit (the classic example is Toeivah), then we have to fight the intrusion so that our children don’t grow up thinking that it is acceptable.
I’m not sure Rabbi Belsky still works at the OU.
Can we please not make this a Charaidi vs. everyone else issue?
Nisht: All I see from your response is a “No it is not”, without any S’varah, a “your comment is disgusting” without explaining what disgusts you (you do pasken from dreams of Rebbe Nachman, don’t you realize that is a bit silly?), and an ad-hominem attack on the SAR principal. Is that really all you have to answer? Anyone else want to give it a shot?
I have no idea if the SAR principal or Rabbi Twerski are “not competent” (I wouldn’t know either if they bumped into me on the street), but that is not the argument that Rabbi Twerski made (which is what I was discussing, not the general incompetence of a specific individual). I guess you personally know the SAR principal (maybe you are a member of the SAR board?) and can attest to his incompetence? Otherwise would you care to explain why you believe he is incompetent? Remember that Hilchos Lashon Hara should apply.
Oomis: I also applaud (Softwords got there first!) your thoughts.
Trust 789: What I heard (IIRC) B’shem the Rav is that he suggested that the women put on Tefillin without Parshios for a month, and then revisit the decision whether to actually wear tefillin.
P.S. I actually (think I) have a very good analogy. A Sephardi girl who wants to make Brachos on Mitzvos Asah SheHazamn Grama.
BS”D
First, this should all be considered to be in the realm of “Hypothetical Lumdus”, in the way that a talmid discusses the Rebbe’s shiur.
I believe he specifically addressed this point towards the end of part II.
I would hope that even you would agree that the analogy is highly flawed. Why not straight out compare it to two high school girls who feel closer to Hashem by worshiping Jesus? On the other hand, one can also compare it to two girls who really want to hear Shofar on Rosh Hashana (to which it is certainly closer). Why compare it to one over the other?
No, but they are required to base their decision on competent halachic authority, which, by their own admission, they have not.
Please define “competent halachic authority”. It is exclusivly the Skverer Dayan? Satmar Rov (Rav Zalman, not CV Aharon)? The famous MamzerMacher “Posek” in Brooklyn? Rav Nachman M’Uman in a dream? I know Rabbi Twerski tries to explain what it is not, but does not explain what it is. Can a Shul Rov no longer Pasken Shailos and must ask every question that comes to him to Rav Shteinman? (B’mechilas Kevodo and rhetorically) Perhaps Rabbi Twerski should consider himself to not be a “competent halachic authority” (by his own definition), and we are therefore all wasting our time discussing his P’sak?
Thanks.
See the well written article by R Mayer Twerski which basically trashes all your comments.
Which really boils down to point 3 (the reasoning behind the Ramo), which is only about Machashava. The Yodea MaChashavos knows these girls’ Machashavos when putting on Tefillin. You, I, Rabbi Twersky, Dr. Hall and others do not. (As opposed to WoW, where they have stated their own opinion). While I would agree that probably a Bais Yaakov or Charaidi girl who starts may be doing so for other motives, the girls here were tought that this is proper Avodas Hashem by their parents.
(P.S. That is not to say I agree, but to explain why Rabbi Twerski’s points MAY not be valid in this case. Did he speak to the girls in question so that he knows their specific intent? Besides, since Rabbi Twerski is not their Rabbi, the girls (and SAR) have no Halachic imperative to agree with him).
“Rav Chaim is a Talmid Chacham, not a Posek (Not to take away from his Gadlus, he says so himself)”
So I don’t have to follow an edict upon which his name is signed?
Why would you think that you would have to? Is he your personal Rov (as opposed to Softwords, for whome he might be)? Of course you don’t.
DY: As we sometimes say here, thank you kindly.
Patur Aval Assur:
1: Rav Chaim is a Talmid Chacham, not a Posek (Not to take away from his Gadlus, he says so himself).
2: If it wasn’t written as P’sak, then it is only hypothetical lomdus (which is common in the Yeshiva world).
Softwords – I don’t disagree with you about WoW, but the OP probably brought the question up because of recent events in the US which have nothing to do with WoW. (This is a general FYI comment and is not an attempt to disagree with your good points).
When Rav Zelig was telling this story the listeners asked him how could the Mir Bochrim do such a thing and go against “daas torah.” he responded by saying, “this story happened before daas torah was invented.”
LOL. Good for Pre-purim, bad for a Ta’anis.
PBA: Aderaba, we have the Mitzva of v’halachta b’drachav (or WWHD). We see from Hashem’s actions how we should act.
🙂
No. He is a real person.
Sam2: I don’t think anyone is arguing they don’t have the “right”. They also could tax anyone with red hair at 100% and they would have the “right” to do so.
akuperma – Israel has no religious rights law (that I am aware of). It comes from not having separation between Church & state.
Sam2:
1: Just because the country has the right to do so doesn’t mean they should.
2: A main (and I believe only convincing to a non Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos) part of the Charaidi argument is that they don’t agree to the state as a whole, and are therefore “conscientious objectors” to any service done for the state.
Has anyone considered the implications in Beit Shemesh?
Boruch Hashem that Abutbol won. Had he lost, it would have been a massive Chillul Hashem. This way, it was only a major Chillul Hashem.
Megillas Lester is Officially Banned.
Expect sales to go up exponentially.
🙂
P.S. (It may just be a sales pitch, not a real ban)
PBA: Nothing to do with the army, or even learning. Everything to do with support. There is no reason to put a plan together that does not lessen the number of families that will still require state support.
Sam2: I know that it is semantics, but as a Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos (I hope?) I can’t support stopping anyone who wants to learn Yomam V’Layla from doing so, army or not.
Torah613Torah: That is why I commented on that point. see earlier in the thread.