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Can you name a peirush that says the Gemara means people
who “cannot learn” for financial reasons?
Of course it doesn’t, and that is not what I said. Straw Man.
Toi – since I don’t have one at work, would you like to enlighten us all?
Lior – I believe the answer can be found in that 30 – 40 years ago, no one worried about others in Kollel. Then, the Yeshivos (Sem was barely a blip) did not promote Kollel, so those who wanted to join had to really want it and mean it (and be real). For people like that, there is only support.
However, in our times, it is promoted by Yeshivos & Sems that everyone should be in Kollel (not just those who really want it). That means support from parents, grandparents and others, raised tuition/Chessed requirements on everyone (due to those who choose to take the easy way out and are not learning 12-14 hours a day) as JFem points out, as well as (partially) an understanding of the costs of poverty on the children of the Kollel system (which is not their choice or fault). This forces/guilts others into supporting them.
To quote the Gemorah in Chaggigah (5B):
??? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????
In short, I believe what you are seeing is a backlash against “the new system”, vs. against the actual learners (who are still regularly supported).
DY – you answered your first question with your third point.
P.S. I agreee with you regarding money. That seemingly is an effect, not a cause.
Lior – why do you assume that the problem CAN be solved with money, or that money is even relevant?
DaasYochid – Does this mean you agree on the L’maase?
Also, as far as Tzahal – Really? I would have expected such a person to be paraded on the street as an example of how Roshei Yeshiva are sending boys to the army, so Tzionim give us money.
Are you aware of any Rosh Yeshiva who told their star (or even top 20) talmid to get married early because of the Kol Korei? I’m not talking about the dregs who he is looking to expel anyway.
I disagree. I don’t think they are weighing the positive impact on the klal vs. the negative impact on the klal. I just think that they don’t feel that they should advise someone to do something which is not necessarily in that person’s best interest.
Fine. Even if we disagree on the motives (you say it’s because they believe individuals should remain in learning, I say because they believe the Klal should remain in learning), the L’maase is that the Roshei Yeshiva don’t believe that anyone should be dating earlier due to this problem. Not one has put anything into action. So PBA is correct.
P.S. At best, it is the same as the shittah regarding going to the army, where they agree hypothetically that there may be some who should go, but no one has ever been told “go”.
There’s a big difference; you are making it sound as if the imbalance is a positive side effect, while I am saying that it is a negative one.
That is girls not being married (sure, bad thing). The results of a solution would be even worse (L’shitasam), thereby making the status quo a positive.
Of course if the problem could be solved in a vacuum they would do it. However, it is tied into everything else that is “top top priority” (Baboker Baboker), so they do nothing.
It may be a “top priority” for every Rosh Yeshiva (questionable, as the programs circumvent the yeshivos instead of working with them), but there is no buy-in from any Rosh Yeshiva for a solution that affects their own Bochrim. Sounds like PBA is correct, or “top priority” is Lashon Sagi Nahor.
Sorry, I’m not buying it. Neither is any Rosh Yeshiva, who may cry and cry, but isn’t lifting a finger to act.
Of course the Moetzes is for the klal, and in their roles as Moetzes members, this is their focus. As roshei yeshiva, their focus needs to be on the yeshiva, and as rebbeim, on their talmidim. They often have roles as husbands and fathers as well. Sometimes there can be a conflict of interest between their various roles, and they have to do their best to figure out what the ratzon H’ is.
So you are going back to my original argument, that since there is a conflict between what is good for the Klal and for the individuals, they have decided that individual Limmud HaTorah (and therefore maintaining the imbalance of available boys to girls) is more important in the eyes of Hashem?
To quote myself:
As I have said in the past, the Roshei Yeshiva (specifically BMG) are very happy to have an imbalance between boys and girls; it allows boys to stay in learning longer, and allows them to stay in Bais Medrash instead of needing to be able to support a family before dating.
As I said, the freezer is not about manipulation, not does it have a major effect.
I should have been clearer that was two separate points. I agree that the freezer is so that Bochrim should not go to Lakewood so that they can go out (not to manipulate the market, although it does have an effect to some (probably minor) degree). The promotion of Seminary is the bigger concern (as you know my views).
Farkert, someone who would manipulate my son to marry someone who’s not best for him, or before he’s ready, is not someone I necessarily want as his rebbe.
Besides, being a rosh hayeshiva is mechayev you to your talmidim, but who says it makes you a leader of klal Yisroel?
Good. Very good. I agree. When are you calling for the Moetzes (which is supposed to have the Klal’s interests in mind, not the Yechidim, unless you disagree?) to be run by Rabbonim instead of Roshei Yeshiva? How about communities (such as Lakewood)?
I know it is before your time, but this may be relevant as the “Lakewood Vaad” (representing BMG, the Roshei Yeshiva and “individuals”) vs. Rabbonim (representing the Klal).
Thoughts?
eric55 – nothing to be said about it. If only…. then we would be mostly solved. Which girl (or even more so, which sem teacher) is willing to admit that they are cut out for someone second class? There are other issues as well, and they are all true. I could (and have) rail against sem for hours. Sem (and its results) are (probably) a product of our society, not a cause.
How did I say they manipulate the system? I think they deal with individuals, and maybe make policies for their yeshivos in the best interest of their yeshivos, but I don’t think they manipulate the klal.
Manipulating for individuals (by making sure that there are girls for those many individuals to marry, or by maintaining the freezer for 1000+ bochrim) results in manipulating the Klal.
If anything, you are putting it way worse. At least I admit that the Gedolim and Roshei Yeshiva care about the Klal, albeit certain members of the Klal (learning boys) over others (understandably). Your argument is that they don’t pay attention to the Klal at all, but rather focus ONLY on the very small picture of individuals, and maybe expand it to their own yeshiva. Not the sort of people that you want leading Klal Yisroel.
To your first point, I already agreed that they “care”, but not enough to do anything about it.
Absolutely not. There’s a world of difference between saying they don’t really care (motzi shem ra, IMO), and saying they care deeply, but either have other priorities, or don’t “control” bochurim the way you, pba, and others seem to think they do.
Semantics. It is like the old joke that someone loves getting the flu, it is just way down on the list of things that he loves. They may “care” about singles (in the abstract), but they care about supporting kollel bochrim and keeping them in yeshiva so much more that the other doesn’t come into the picture.
I’m not saying they “control” anyone, but they did manipulate they system (as you point out one way, the absolute disregard for planning in Parnassah is another) and they are pleased enough with the consequences that they have no interest in making serious changes.
Finally, we can argue about how to help “older” girls on another thread.
DY:
Of course not. Gavra is much too cynical. What is conceivable, though, is that they feel that the current norm of 23 is the best typical age from the bochurim’s perspective, and that it’s not their jobs to encourage them to do something against their best interests.
So you agree with me, but put a nicer spin on it. Yasher Koach.
As I have said before, if they really cared, they could extend the freezer by a year except for girls older than the boy. Not only would that solve the “crisis”, but it would also help those who are “older” (let’s say 26+), for whom no one seems to have any ideas.
As you said, the Roshei Yeshiva are very happy with the status quo. They are willing to tell bochrim in yenem’s yeshiva to go out earlier (hence the Kol Korei), but not their own who should stay in learning as long as possible and marry the Shver’s Swiss (or Cayman) bank account (and their 18 year old daughter by extension) (how’s that for cynical?)
PBA – exactly.
PBA: R’ Rechnitz can only work around the Roshei Yeshiva, not with them (and I have confirmed this with someone on the inside of this program). As I have said in the past, the Roshei Yeshiva (specifically BMG) are very happy to have an imbalance between boys and girls; it allows boys to stay in learning longer, and allows them to stay in Bais Medrash instead of needing to be able to support a family before dating. If the cost is 15%-20% (if that is the number, who really knows) of girls who never get married, so be it. That is why none of his proposals will solve the problem, they can only cover it over slightly better. Even to Squeak’s point #2, he is not saying that girls should be taught that these boys are the ones to marry, but rather trying to find these boys (if they are still willing to shidduch date) so they can be seen as second class and “settling” by their spouses (talk about a recipe for divorce!!!). He does not think of fixing the problem that the schools should teach that not all girls should be looking to marry a learning boy, as the imbalance might be fixed.
The elephant in the room is support, and how breaking the imbalance will cause a decrease in overall learning.
First off the fact soemthing is different then the Mesorah does not automatically diqualify it.
It does mean that you need really, really, really big people who know the entire Torah and have reached the status where they are generally accepted to be Gedolei Yisroel to change it.
Once I was at the Simchas Beis HaShoeiva of a major Rav( He is considered one of the major Poskim in the USA) and he spoke about this.
The point of his drosha actually was that Halachically it’s not prohibited but as frum Yidden we have a Mesorah and we follow the Mesorah and there was never such aconcept in Judaisim.
In the Chasam Sofer’s words,
‘Chadash Assur Min HaTorah”.
Sounds like (CV) “When there is a rabbinic will, there is a Halachic way”.
PAA – Thanks.
PBA – I’m unaware of any source that says not to do it, and only know one religious person who does.
Do you have any additional information to share?
‘Chadash Assur Min HaTorah”.
And the irony about this is that the Chasam Sofer was the one who said there is no reason whatsoever for MBP other than health, and that if doctors say it is more healthy one must use a sponge.
emesvyatziv – support is quite literally the third rail. There has been support (a dowry) for hundreds of years. Without support, the Kollel system collapses, bochrim go to college, the mabul reoccurs, and the earth flies away from the sun.
And CV, it might lead to mixed dancing.
As I said in another thread:
P.S. This is entirely consistent with the world-view of many Gedolim (following Rav Dessler), that they would rather support Kollelim and let the children go off the Derech, given those are the only two options. I’m not saying it is wrong, but it does go back to spending yenem’s money while your own priorities are elsewhere.
Well if we are going to follow the Rema I look forward to everyone wearing tefillin on Chol HaMoed, eating dairy an hour after eating meat, and going home immediately after maariv on seder night rather than staying in shul to recite Hallel.
Societal Judaism as it is formed today is very much a “pick who you like” in terms of Halacha. If not, everyone would be doing woman’s Mezumenet, which is what all pre 20th century poskim say to do (TTBOMK) (and no yeshivish family does). Let alone Zemanim, Kashrus and Tznius.
Throw burkas on them
Have you considered writing a passive aggressive post on ywn about it?
Since I’m in the mood…..
Why is it “clearly not” allowed to have a skirt that reaches the knee but doesn’t cover it 🙂
Lior: By making it clear to the community and to the parents that paying for the school and their tuition is a priority over other Tzedakos. The money is there, just currently it goes to Lakewood, Benei Brak and Adopt a Kollel, as well as supporting sons-in-law in various Kollels (and I won’t even start with Seminary!).
In fact, many non east coast areas already have community schools in place, because the Gevirim in those areas know the school is their responsibility. If it were a priority, the same thing could be implemented in east coast areas.
gavra, who do you expect to fund the free schooling you expect the gedolim to open?
Straw man. I didn’t say “free”. I said available to all, whether they can pay or not.
DY – this mirrors the statement of Hashem via the navi yeshaya that we lain on a taynis. Our society vs. the navi.
DY – aderaba, I am a strong believer in the absolute requirement for any community to have a serious community school, where everyone sends and the community supports. If the community believes in educating ALL of the children in the community, then the whole point is moot.
Every other type of school is and should be treated as existing solely for the profits (larger salaries and bonuses for non profits) of the owners or the need for exclusiveness by the parents of the students. For those schools I have no expectations, and yes, if the owner decides a child is too much trouble (or not smart enough, yeshivish, chassidish, internet, TV, etc.) then the child will be removed (and in some neighborhoods, that is exactly what happens). For someone who CV lives in such a community, they should realize no one is looking out for them and the school is only a service, and that you may not get if you dont pay.
And sorry, it is a shanda that the gedolim dont care enough to open schools in every Jewish community where everyone in a community can go, whether they can pay or not. That is exactly what the Alter of Navardok did.
Let me know when hundreds of girls flood the public school system. It didn’t happen yet, and won’t happen.
And it won’t, even if they do close. Parents will home school when they realize they can no longer get a free ride from their private school.
DaasYochid – Im Kain, “we as in Gedolei Yisroel” should be prioritizing children’s tuition (which after all, is the halacha as brought in Shulchan Aruch) over all of these other Tzedakos, so that children have a place to learn. At least Rav Pam & Rav Aharon who fought for Shuvu & Chinuch Atzmai (resp.) were consistent in their requirements for Jewish education. Today, we see the “popular” Tzadakos (such as Kupat Hair, Keren Shviis and adopt a kollel) take precedence. If it really is Pikuach Nefesh, paying children’s tuition would be a priority of the Gedolim. It is not.
P.S. This is entirely consistent with the world-view of many Gedolim (following Rav Dessler), that they would rather support Kollelim and let the children go off the Derech, given those are the only two options. I’m not saying it is wrong, but it does go back to spending yenem’s money while your own priorities are elsewhere.
P.P.S. Meheicha Teisi that pikuach nefesh would apply here? Perhaps it only applies when the child will (rightfully) reject Yiddishkeit because it rejected him/her, not where you have someone well adjusted and well behaved who will now learn at home?
DY: Who is “we”? Whoever is the “we” who views this as pikuach nefesh should supply the funding. No different than your medical case if the doctor refuses to operate without getting paid. Whomever views getting that specific doctor as pikuach nefesh should supply the funds, not the doctor who says go somewhere else. Personally, I don’t view Yeshiva as pikuach nefesh as IMHO home schooling is a real and viable option.
Without a real community school that has a mandate to take everyone, each school owner/administrator can push the child off and claim it is not their problem.
DaasYochid – Until the hospital closes and no one gets helped. That is what seems to happen in NYC quite often (LICH, St. Vincents to name a couple recently). It certainly helps to have government backing, but that is not the case for tuition. I can get into a whole discussion/rant regarding COBRA and how Reagan exploded hospital costs in an upward spiral, but that would really be hijacking the thread.
As per your point, when “they” are told that this is pikuach nefashos, those who are doing the telling should have the decency to put their money where their mouth is and pay for the child as well. Its very easy to spend yenem’s money.
mythoughts – I wish that I had an answer for you. Perhaps you should try a financial helper type to see where you can cut back. Or maybe try home schooling, even if just for your younger children.
Avram: There are web-based programs that can certainly help teach the material as needed. Even for Jewish subjects (Aleph Beta comes to mind as an example). Yes, it won’t be the best education, but most Jewish education isn’t Eton, and you get what you pay for.
DaMoshe – so why is that different than the current system?
DY – correct.
DaasYochid – Why would our Bais Yaakov & Yeshiva educated parents be unable to teach elementary school topics? Doesn’t that say something about our Mosdos?
Also, for your hypothetical parent with 5 children (@ 10K each), the parent that makes less would have to be making 80-90K, if not more, for it to be worthwhile to work over homeschooling. Already not most of the Olam.
To the point regarding fundraising, I agree that the money raised via that method should be segregated and used to pay for those who can not afford it on a needs basis. That means the amount of discount offered varies directly with the funds raised on a year over year basis, is limited, and does not mean that the Yeshiva takes all comers or offers a discount to all those who can not pay in full. That way, bills and employees still get paid.
As for marginal cost, we have been there, done that. As you point out, taken to its logical conclusion, no one should pay tuition.
To your point with CI & Gamanit, perhaps the most appropriate would be the opposite, to publicize those who do pay in full as “V’eilu Yaamdu Al HaBracha” (since you don’t want to call anyone a Off Tameh).
Chochom – fair enough. I don’t think Halacha (regarding what is an Ani) would agree, but there is certainly an emotional argument that can be made for keeping the present.
DaMoshe – If they can afford the 10K+ membership (because membership is now covering tuition, and in a growing community there are more children than families).
Yankel is in a for profit enterprise
So are most Yeshivos. Even if not, they still have a chiyuv to pay bills over accepting every Yankel, Berel, Goldie & Rivkie.
While the home schooling option sounds inviting, it is simply not feasible for most parents, especially those who struggle for basics, and are two parent working families.
Who could cut back and only have one worker if they didn’t have to pay tuition!
Again, the yeshiva claims to be doing Avodas Hakodesh and to serve the Klal.
So does a doctor, EMT and Askan. They all need to be paid.
At the end of the day, I think that we both would agree that, given a case of hunger, there is an obligation on the community (religious, local government, state, Federal) to provide a means to survive.
And if we were dealing with a community school, I would agree. I don’t believe Baltimore has the equivalent of Hebrew Academy, and if it doesn’t, who does that chiyuv fall on? The employees of the school?
DaMoshe – Why are you willing to kick the adults out of the community if they can’t pay more than their children?
DaMoshe – Unless people stop being members.
Even Lakewood doesn’t have a community school, then they would have to accept everyone, and teachers wouldn’t get paid.
Good luck.
Avram, TLIK: It is no different than the “structural issue” that occurs when someone makes 30K a year with 12 children and can’t afford food. Does that person have the right to go into Yankel’s grocery and demand food (or start taking it from the shelves) without having to pay for it?
Chochom-ibber: Why should the financial burden be the responsibility of the Yeshivos vs. the parents? Bishlama a “community” school (eg. Hebrew Academy of Cleveland) which has achrayus to the community, but no yeshiva on the east coast (with perhaps 2-3 exceptions) places on itself such an achrayus.
Also, where would you draw the line? What if the wedding present was a Maserati?
Lior: That is very nice as a hypothetical. L’maase, teachers need to get paid, and the money has to come from somewhere. Instead of limiting children, parents could always home school their children and not have the “Magiah Li” attitude that they should get a service without having to pay for it. Or perhaps with your line of reasoning, you should give up your house to someone who needs it so that they can continue to have additional children? Who are you to stop anyone from having the space to have more children?
The little I know – The solution is home schooling. I am personally aware of families that take advantage of home schooling, and their children are no different than anyone else’s. Furthermore, they no longer have to deal with tuition committees, scrounging for cash and all of the other bizyonos and intrusions of privacy that come along with asking for a discount on services provided. Another possible solution that I mentioned earlier is to have the parent collect money for the yeshiva as their tuition.
P.S. Nebuch on the Yeshiva that won’t accept a Jewish Neshoma just because they went to public school for a year or two. On that I agree with you that the Yeshiva will be held responsible.
Gamanit – Pose that question to Chazal, not me.
zahavasdad – That is a structural issue. Unfortunately, 75-100K may not be enough to support a Jewish family of 7. What to do about it is really not the decision of the school who can choose to either provide or not provide the service.
TLIK: Each “community” (ex. Brooklyn, Queeens + Nassau, Jersey near NYC, Rockland Co., Baltimore-Washington, etc.) could have such an arrangement. Yes, it will mean longer commutes, unexact hashkafic matches and possible identification of those on scholarship. As they say, you get what you pay for, and if you get without paying, you don’t get to complain about what you get. Worst case is your Belzer goes to an MO school, or your Yekkie goes to Stolin. Not a big deal.
TLIK: Divorcees with deadbeat dads should be in the same category as Almanos & Yesomim, as their father has “given them up”. The community to which the children belong should find them (and pay for) a school to go to, perhaps by working out a “bulk discount” for children of this type who need a school (If they have 20-30 children, the community Tzedaka can negotiate a significant discount & send all of those children there).
In that sort of situation, I would hope people would help. I would also hope divorcees & widows are the exception, not the rule.
DY – Should I be? And if I’m not, where do you believe the line should be drawn?
Lior: There should be a semi-public appeal within the community that Plonis Almanah (whomever the widow is) is in need of money to send her children to yeshiva, and the community should raise it. It would be no different than if she didn’t have money for an apartment, or to buy food, where a specific landlord or grocery owner would not be asked to foot the bill just because they are providing the service.
Remember, the Gemorah (and Shulchan Aruch) pasken that public shaming of the parents is appropriate. Since we are dealing with an Almanah and Yesomim, my personal opinion is that it should be avoided if at all possible.
TLIK: Why are parents having children that they are obviously unable to take care of? It is like the old joke goes, that instead of getting a marriage license, couples should be forced to get a “baby” license before having a child. edited
What the Gemorah Kesubos (49B) says:
?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????
B’dieved, I have gotten calls from people who said their relatives would not be allowed into school unless they raise a certain amount for each child. That may be what is required before people take paying for the services provided seriously, instead of feeling “Magiah Li”. End story is, it is the responsibility of the parents, not the school (unless the parents give up the child, which is a completely different issue).
I have to agree with Chochom. As long as the wife has silver candlesticks amd an engagement ring, she shows her priorities are not to pay tuition. Further, many schools are for-employment of the head’s family, not to service the community. Those schools can not be expected to take a loss by accepting or continuing to service children that don’t pay in full.
Tlik: Might I recommend that you offer to pay the tuition? That way the yeshiva stays open, the teachers get paid, and the student can stay.
PAA – Shalom Al Yisroel.
Here I thought this was about personal security from predators!
To the OP: I agree with Dee that you should ask your family Rov, with your parents present so that both sides can be heard.
PAA: The Shulchan Aruch is not discussing girls, and for good reason. Girls (as others pointed out) have no mitzva of limud, and it is questionable if a year in Sem in EY is appropriate for a girl (especially after recent events). Kibbud would be based on causing your parents worry that their daughter is in a (in their minds) Makom Sakana (similar to why smoking or taking drugs is being over Kibbud Av (as per Rav Moshe Iggros YD chelek 3)).
DY: The Al Capone look makes the Olam look even cooler. (That is why I specified temperature).
mordern – I don’t see the Olam walking around in Frocks like Roshei Yeshiva.
So if you dress like a penguin, you’ll be like one on the inside too.
Which is DY’s heter, because wearing H&J makes him feel like he is cool (cold temp.) like a penguin 🙂
I personally would not wear H&J in the street, only because it is a chumrah D’asi Lidei Kulah, as if you wear H&J in the street, you are mechuyav to wear on for davening (and vice versa). Offen Mishna Berurah “K’derech Sheholchin B’rechov”. If you only wear it for davening, then it isn’t a chiyuv so you can still daven without it if you forget it. (Ask your LOR for actual Halacha).