gavra_at_work

You can’t assur something just because its not “in the spirit” of shabbos. You have to clarify whether it is permitted halachically or not.

First, this is exactly the attitude that DY was harping against.

Second, it seems clear that there is a Din D’oraysah (or “Halachically a Chiyuv”) of L’Maan Yanuach and Shabbason (according to the Ramban & Ritva, others would say it is M’dirabbanon?), that one must relax AKA “act Shabbosdik” on Shabbos. If you want to know how that is done, you can AYLOR.

Furthermore, the Rambam would define the shabbos app, even if not a “Melacha” per say, as assur M’dirabbanan, since it mimics a Melacha.

???? ????? “?????” (???? ??,??; ???? ??,??)–????? ?????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???. ?????? ???? ??, ????? ????? ???? ????–??? ?????, ????? ???? ??? ????? ???????

See Rambam Shabbos 21

Well, couldn’t one respond, “The problem is that even though that would work for Yeraim, there are many Orthodox Jews (of all sects) who, while willing to follow the letter of the law, do not feel that a Geder created out of thin air due to issues of Ksav She’eino Miskayem should or will apply to them.”?

DY – I believe the appropriate term would be :-p

I’d also give it a “like” if there was a “like” button. Good job, and very possibly there were people at the time of Chazal who said exactly that.

If it were only zilzul, I would say so (and insist that it’s still very much assur), but it happens to not be.

Agreed, but I’m not here to preach to the Chazzan. The idea would be L’shitasam (for those who are not Choshesh for Zilzul, unfortunately), how can we convince them that this is Assur for other reasons so that they won’t use the app? I believe we have accomplished that much.

DaasYochid: Thanks for the quote. As I said, I can agree that it would not be “Shabbosdik”, as long as you don’t try to pigeonhole the issur into a specific melacha or Ta’am of Chazal.

The problem is that even though that would work for Yeraim, there are many Orthodox Jews (of all sects) who, while willing to follow the letter of the law, do not feel that a Geder created out of thin air due to issues of Zilzul Shabbos (especially one created by those “Crazy Mea Shearim & Beni Brak Rabbis who are against the state of Israel”) should or will apply to them. Halachicly they may even have a point, as what makes “Shabbosdik” to some is not true for others (Settlers of Catan, anyone? How about scientific study?). Once it it is subjective, they have reason to say it doesn’t apply. I’m looking for an objective reason (in this case, Kesav created on the other phone) that would objectively be an issur shabbos. On the other hand, I do note that is seems at first glance that there are ways around these issues via voice commands, and challenge smart learned people such as yourself to give a halachic reason why it should be assur, or say the only issue is Zilzul.

Soon (and probably sooner than you think), voice commands (maybe even robots) will be available commercially for the sick and elderly, and using it will be a Kiyum of Shabbos. At some point the Shailah is going to have to be answered, may as well do it now.

So to answer your question, it SHOULD change your approach, even if it doesn’t change your personal outcome.

Voice activation ??? ??? ?????

I thought your were refering back to my proposal, not to the actual proposed Shabbos App. My apologies.

Sure it’s ???? ?????? ????, as the two cases he compares it to are.

Since when is a bicycle & an umbrella (which I thought was due to Ohel?) part of Uvda Dchol? Even he is just saying there is a geder, not that it is Uvda Dchol as defined by the poskim.

GAW: If you call a cow and it comes to you that’s a D’Oraisa of M’chamer. That seems like a very apt (see what I did there?) precedent for talking to a phone.

Only because a melacha is being done via your dibbur, as you are chayiv in Shvisas B’hemto. The proposal would have to be voice only on both sides to fully avoid any kisevah.

metrodriver – care to explain why that is relevant, especially as it has already been noted?

Gavra, no, I don’t mean it’s literally amira l’akum, I just mean that it could be assur despite that it’s dibbur. I think you would need to provide a source to be mattir grama al y’dei dibbur.

Aderabba, that is why I started with the point that Dibbur is not a Maase all over shas. Therefore, there is no reason to think that Grama even begins to come into play for a non-Maase!! (L’cheorah) Amriah L’Akum requires its own Gezairah for a reason.

P.S. This specifically comes up by Shabbos, where a Melacha is required. Elsewhere (such as Adam HaMazik), “Kocho” is enough to be a mechayiv, and I would argue (first thought) that if you command your robot to break someone’s car, that would be Adam HaMazik (vs. Memono).

(Of course there is a semi-serious issue of Mizto Chefticha V’daber Davar, but there are ways around that as well, as is well documented elsewhere in poskim).

To avoid problems of Kesiva, they have designed a preset keyboard with 120 Keywords plus 30 words you can customize with which you don’t write but simply select the words to become part of your sentence. Any everything is delayed reaction, and user history is deleted periodically, so as not to be permanent.

(Besides for all the other issues,) Why isn’t there a separate problem with the word showing up on the other person’s screen after you hit “send”? Unless I am mising my mark, by creating a P’sik Raisha (even if you claim it is indirect) that writing will appear elsewhere, that should be at least a D’rabbanan (even if the Kesiva is not shel kayama).

A real “Shabbos app” might work exclusively with voice, so that no words would be created. Then I could see the question being asked (since it is well established all over shas that dibbur is not a maase).

More commonly known as the Department of Post-Mortem Communications.

Avram in MD – If it is muttar than it should not cause any more concern than if someone’s shirt got damaged by him tripping on a banana left on the street (assuming that is Bor and Kailim are Patur). We (as Yidden) follow Halacha, and while there is the concept of “morally responsible” (Chayiv B’dei Shomayim), if that doesn’t apply than you have no responsibility.

In your example I would argue that while the card allows one to avoid punishment, the Chiyuv mammon still exists.

If the response to that will be “because G-d said so” then I will question what the inherent value of listening to G-d is.

We have no idea, but trust that if He asked us to do so, it must serve a higher purpose.

What inherent value is there in doing Hashem’s will?

Assuming you believe, fulfilling the purpose for which this earth was created. Why Mitzvos do so is not your or my concern.

Patur Aval Assur – who says you have to “want” to serve the RBSO?

DY – Agreed, but for a deeper discussion. Also the Hakdama to Mishna Berurah Chelek Gimmel (always a good thing to Chazer) says similar to what you/we are saying L’gabay the Creator & supreme Being.

catch yourself – Thanks for your contribution. This is why I am here, to learn something new.

There are so many options other than benchers. Siddurim, tehillims, etc.

Artscroll Shas, Shulchan Aruch, new Tur, etc.

Seriously, even at $2 each and 200 benchers, $400 is a drop in the bucket for a wedding. Making a “Takana” wedding (one man band, <400 guests, small shmorg, etc.) and a girl who doesn’t need a brand name shaitel will save real money.

Thanks Mods, it has happened too many times in the past.

catch yourself, I will BEHY comment when I have a few minutes to read your post.

Like I said earlier, who said we had such cash on us?

I know this is a total side point, but when traveling (and certainly to a different country), it is an absolute necessity to carry actual currency on you (USD will do in most). You never know when you may need it.

I did do something. I remained dignified and mostly put up with it, because that’s my nature.

Good for you. Now if only everyone else was as mature….the world would be a much better place (virtual pat on head).

That being said, you didn’t care enough to pay money for him to switch.

Also you do not hold it is Assur. I imagine you would have made a much bigger fuss has you believed it was Yehareg V’al Yaavor (granted that term is thrown around a dime per dozen these days, but still).

Joe, (AKA “Catch Me” we did) I’m not going to bother with you.

Even the biggest proponents of Kollel don’t advocate or expect *every* yungerman to go to Kollel. And certainly no one holds that “the entire nation” should be in Kollel. The claim that anyone holds something like that, which you sometimes hear advanced by those opposed to Kollel, is a red herring.

Yes, they need some second class citizens to support the learners, no? They do expect every individual to be in Kollel for as long as they can hold out, and when they leave, they exist to support those who still remain (As a certain Israeli Rosh Yeshiva says, “I’m doing them a favor by taking their money and making their Gehennom a little less hot”.).

But Lior, in case you are right, I will agree. Which Roshei Yeshiva or Yeshivos (non-Chassidish, who don’t believe in the whole “kollel for life” thing, as they actually believe in Tznius and that women should be homemakers) push their talmidim out of Kollel and into (or even prepare them for) the workforce? I can think of Chofetz Chaim, YU/Landers/Ohr Hachaim, and that’s it. If you can show me someone who announced that their Talmidim (or even a subset) should go work, I’ll agree that the group is excluded.

Show me.

notasheep – Would you have been willing to pay? I bet you had you told one of the men that you will give him $500 to switch, he would have done so.

Everybody’s talkin’ ’bout the new sound

Funny, but it’s still rock and roll to me

Also, put yourself in the following scenario: you are flying to E.Y. for about $1200. Your rav paskens that it is assur to sit next to a mam (I don’t know why you use the terms “believe” and “religious obligation” instead of “psak halacha”). You have a choice: rely in working it out amicably if you are placed next to a man as can be done 99% of the time, or pay an extra $1200 (every time you fly). What would you do?

DaasYochid – because you have not proven that it is an absolute requirement. So far, I have only seen maybes, Lechatchilas, and try-tos.

But let’s make your argument real.

You are going to take Lulav. 99.99% of the time it will be OK and you will remember not to carry your lulav in the Reshus HaRabim on Shabbos. 0.01% of the time you may forget. What would you do?

In the case of Lulav, the upside (a mitzva vs. stam Kesef) is much greater, and the downside (Toeh B’dvar Mitzva on Shabbos vs. an Issur Arayos, which is Yehareg V’Al Yaavor) is much less severe. What would you do?

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=888&pgnum=193

See end of teshuvah.

I’m not sure what you are getting at, but it would seem that B’dieved (the Eitzah of the Chazon Ish) the “Charaidi” should sit next to the woman but insist that the armrest stay down at all times, so that there is a separation and he doesn’t touch her. He also B’davkah points out that sitting with a man would only be when it is not difficult.

Besides, in reality this should all be besides the point. A “Charad L’Dvar Miztva” would make sure they don’t get into such a situation (as opposed to a bus) by buying a first class seat or two coach seats.

Did R’ Moshe pasken one MUST sit next to a woman?

Does nobody disagree with R’ Moshe, and is someone not entitled to follow his own posek?

DY: Alecha L’Havei Rayah that there is some legitimate Psak (not by Rabbi Saul Lieberman or other reform Rabbi) that there is some sort of issue. Then we can discuss parameters of such a P’sak, whether it applies to men as well as women (B’shittas Gur), and if one does hold as such, would they be Mechuyav L’chatchila to purchase two seats instead of relying on the B’dieved of moving others around and possibly being Over if no one is willing to move.

P.S. If the issue is that of dress (and they hold it is therefore Assur to sit next to such a woman), I don’t see how one can remain on the plane (since they will still see her) even if they don’t sit next to the woman, as it is B’geder Ikah Darcha Achrina (they can take another flight or pay for the front seat in first class).

That all being said, we are (in general) Machmir on Arayos. If it is a legitimate issue, I fully expect people to start coming from EY collecting so that those who come collecting from EY should be able to purchase an additional seat.

No one really believes that the entire nation is meant to learn in kollel full-time while their wives work and/or somebody supports them, do they?

Sure seems like it in certain circles.

If that is indeed the mindset of the system, then something is presumably wrong.

Hence the resentment.

PAA – Thanks

Toi – certainly looks like a huge Dochek to me (he is Mehapech the words of the Gemorah), and certainly not Pashut P’shat (besides that he claims the Tanu Rabbanan is Davka going like Rav Nehurai against the other Tannaim in Keddushin).

Pashut Pshat (to me) is that everyone has their Tachlis in this world that the RBSO put them here to do. For some it is Chessed, others Askanus, some to make Shidduchim, some to support the Klal, and some to learn Torah full time. It was not Zev Wolfson’s ZTL or Mike Tress’ ZTL’s job to learn full time (seemingly), or Lehavdil L’chaim Yisroel Friedman (the Shaddchan) or Yehudah Rechnitz. If they were to quit their holy work because “they need to learn in Kollel”, that would be worth crying over. And in reality, if you think about it, everyone who works to support their family is also doing “Meleches Shomaim”, if they are doing so for the right reasons.

If you would like a more “Pashut” pshat than the Maharsha that also fits with your personal Hashkafic outlook, you can see the Nachlas Baruch (available on Hebrewbooks.org), who says similar to what PAA quoted in his link.