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Wikipedia says horse milk is a good source. That could be why you are having Kashrus issues.
Financial issues should not be a reason to delay marriage. (Unless one believes that poor people, who have no reason to think they will soon change their financial status, should forgo getting married.)
I don’t (necessarily) disagree. Were you addressing my points?
1) No, I think b’etzem 20 is usually a better age, but if financial necessity dictates, she may have to wait a couple of years.
2) I disagree. Let the parents work out the financial prerequisites.
You seem to believe that a couple should get married before they are able to be responsible for themselves, let alone having children. The parents of such couple can continue to be responsible for them. Agree or disagree?
1) Do you work for NASI? – No, NASI wouldn’t be that crude. Do you agree with the point?
2) Way to start a relationship! – At some point during the dating process this has to be discussed even if parents are involved. If one side has a very different expectation of finances (or worse, expectations regarding lifestyle) then the couple is not compatible, and if they do get married, they will fight about it constantly.
1: So let the 19 year old straight out of Sem children be supported and live by Mommy and Daddy for another few years before they move out. It seems like the only reason that support is needed to be discussed is because the couple isn’t really ready to get married, which then certainly the parents are going to be in charge of their “married” children (who are Somech al Shulchan Avihem, with the halachic ramifications thereof?). In that case, of course the parents should discuss support, no different than sending your 10 year old to camp and expecting them to pay for it!!
2: Shouldn’t how much money is “enough” be a decision of the couple, not one that involves the parents?
DY: So if money can be from the girl, why is it important for the parents to discuss money before the couple gets engaged/married? (going full circle)
Who says they aren’t?
You, who said that they need support from their shver!
Computer jobs can start at $45k per, with a pretty decent upside.
Also, a 22 year old girl could have a year or two’s salary put away. You’re probably thinking shver support as full support, but that’s not too common. It’s usually just about enough to cover rental of a basement apartment.
Sounds reasonable to me. So why aren’t the 25 year old boys marrying the 22 year old girls who have 2 years worth of rent in their pockets?
A teacher (unless in the public school system) doesn’t make enough without some shver support, but OT/PT can with a big enough work load, and there are other jobs which do better and are becoming increasingly popular. Computers is one thing that comes to mind.
I grant you that I’m not familiar with the “computers” job market, but other than a code monkey (which doesn’t pay), how much can someone make without being a real professional (which means going to a real college, etc.)? Also for OT/PT, how heavy of a workload is possible with the expectation of children? I have not seen that OT/PT/Speech is an acceptable alternative to Shver support, but we may see it differently.
They’re looking at a 5-10 year picture.
Not that longer term would be a chisaron, but they’re not turning down shidduchim for it.
So how does OT/PT/Speech/Teacher help without shver support? And what happens after 5-10 years?
Houses aren’t as expensive as people think. They just happen not to be in New York.
As DY would say, GD (Geographically (un)desirable).
No, I have just observed that the boys (or parents) are not turning down shidduchim based on such a long term financial picture.
DY, explain yourself. You have said time again that boys need to marry assuming they will be supported, and that the couple themselves will be unable to support (which is why you would need the parents to discuss support before they go out, and certainly before they get engaged). On the other hand, you’re telling me that the boy would be happy with a wife who is earning 30K in OT/PT/Speech (part time) or a teacher (if that much), which he could make himself if he so desired to work hard (even without a degree). What are these boys thinking?
Yes, but the vast majority of boys aren’t holding out for that. They simply want to be able to learn and pay their bills. You’re propagating a nasty and mostly untrue stereotype.
In this society, paying tuition (even in Lakewood) costs more than two leased cars and a house. So are you saying they want even more money???
Even rent, food, etc. (excluding tuition) costs more than what an OT/PT/Speech or a teacher makes. I think you are overly optimistic regarding the earning power of a typical Bais Yaakov graduate.
That’s not what’s generally happening, though.
That? Assuming you mean the guys are not waiting, there are enough girls whose parents can support (or eventually, the girl themselves) that guys can bypass those who can’t support.
Also, who says that they aren’t waiting already, as otherwise (if they would be supported all those years) they would get married younger?
Finally, OT/PT/Speech does not make someone FD, as it does not buy a house and a two car lease. Only a Shver or an accountant (or lawyer) will do that.
If there weren’t more girls than boys, some would have to, or remain single for extra years. Yet, I don’t think there’s a problem that older boys aren’t married because they can’t find girls with a good financial situation to go out with.
Gavra, first of all, without a job or parental support, less isn’t the issue, the issue is paying basic bills. Harbeh asu? Maybe, Hashem can certainly do anything, but ein somchin al haneis.
As you yourself pointed out, the boys are unable to get married without support. As such, the poor girls aren’t getting married to those sorts of guys, as they guys can wait yet another year for the new crop of girls out of brainwashing, I mean seminary.
Also, what does FD stand for?
So let them marry the 25 year old boys.
Why would the 25 year boys want to marry a poor 22 year old girl?
DY: But many who come back to Lakewood (or Rav Asher) would not really mind if they got to stay an extra year or 18 months in Yeshiva without the Raichaim B’Tzavaram. Not true with girls. It still goes back to #13, that girls have a desperate need to get married, while boys don’t (to the same extent).
Tav l’meisav could explain that need, but we don’t see the girls settling until they are much older (and at that point, what they settle for is many times either married or no longer interested in them).
The numbers (boys not wanting to get married vs. girls) is part of the question/solution, not the crisis.
DY: #1 is (IMHO) very subjective. I don’t know how many boys want to get married to girls just out of Sem, and how many are scared off by the (very reasonable in our society) possibility of divorce and alimony, let alone OTD, 612, and those who just don’t want the responsibility. I believe it is a reasonable assumption that 90+ % of girls (with a frum upbringing) want to get married (although I have no stats). Chazal say that the percentage of boys is significantly less (Tav L’Matav), and Puk Chazi says the same thing. However, I don’t know the numbers so I’m not going to guess.
Also (and I hate to do this), the word “want” is imprecise. If a boy would like/prefer to be married, but is not active looking for dates, but the girl believes the only reason that she exists is to get married, can you qualify both as “want”?
#13.
Although some boys are also having a hard time finding a shidduch (and I certainly feel for them), if for only them alone I don’t believe we would treat it the way we do now. There have always been some boys who did not get married (for whatever reason, but needing to take care of sick parents is one I’ve seen time and time again with 50/60 year old men) and we would go forward.
The rest is deleted because it would be hurtful to girls who wait by the phone, which is (IMHO) the bigger issue than not being married.
The problem with your definitions is that they are all intertwined. For example, in our current situation, poorer girls have much less of a possibility of marrying a kollel boy than a rich girl, and it shows as more poorer girls not getting married. However, if the girls would not feel the need to marry kollel boys, then their lack of wealth would be less of a factor. Certainly if they didn’t feel their self-worth was tied into being married (to a kollel boy), lack of wealth would be a non-factor, and they would be able to work on being an Oved Hashem and doing what Hashem wants from them.
That depends entirely on how you define “the shidduch crisis”.
The sheer number of 22+ year old girls waiting (either at home or in an apartment with roommates) for the phone to ring.
So you would advocate for a change in the “system” which would have boys starting to go out at 28?
Talui in the Rishonim there in Keddushin 29B. It’s really not for me to say what should be done in a situation where the bochur’s own family can not support, as Chazal and the Rishonim have already discussed it. I do feel the need to point it out as an option that at least some (and possibly Amoraim) endorsed.
Yes, I think it behooves any young lady to be realistic, and not limit herself to go out with boys who would not want to go out with her.
As famous shaddchanim are known to say, the number one thing that a girl needs to get married in this society is lots of money. That’s just the way it is.
So if you and I agree that money is causing the shidduch crisis, and you suggest (and I agree) getting rid of money will only make things worse, how would you suggest breaking out of this catch-22?
Lior – Of course. I meant the system that produces the shidduchim in those olam wouldn’t work for the Yeshivish, not that the Yeshivish should start hanging out with girls Chas V’Shalom.
Thank Hashem for 30 seconds every day for something that happened (outside of Tefilah, just say thank you).
Rav Avigdor Miller
Generally, if a boy very strongly wished he would be able to learn after marriage, he would only go out with someone who has a good job or whose parents could provide support.
Or he would push off getting married. Ha Lan Ha Lehu.
And what does a girl who very strongly wants to establish a learning/kollel home, but doesn’t have the wherewithal to support it, do?
She becomes a shidduch crisis statistic.
Its amazing that its come to the point where working is considered less desireable than taking from Tzdekah and a Gemach
(See PBA, managed to invoke Godwin!!)
Gavra, first of all, without a job or parental support, less isn’t the issue, the issue is paying basic bills. Harbeh asu? Maybe, Hashem can certainly do anything, but ein somchin al haneis. Second, the objective here is to create more shidduchim, and in the real world, your approach will scare people off from getting married.
I happen to agree with you, and it brings out an important point. We are not preparing our children to be married when they get married. Therefore, how can we expect them to “not have parental involvement”, or not go for “the best boy in Lakewood”, or even want to live on their own instead of living off others (ex. Rashi in Noach) when they have no idea what it takes to be married??
Logician: How old ? go back a bit more, and it was always this way.
Old enough that when I write this, I hear my bones creak 🙂 That being said, further back in Europe, the daughter of the tailor had no Hava Amina that she would marry someone in learning, or even someone who would be able to do more than put a roof over their heads (if that). If you want to blame the shidduch crisis on “Uppity” girls who want to marry over their station, I would not be the one to disagree.
Those who’ve had no social contact with the opposite gender prior to marriage successfully get married at rates at least as much as those who’ve had a lifetime of pre-marital social contact with the opposite gender.
Agreed, but what works for Chassidim and Yerushalmis would not work for the Yeshivish Olam, for many different reasons.
Golfer: So admit they are not ready, but we marry them off anyway.
DY: Harbei Asu. You just have to be willing to do with less.
I won’t bother discussing point by point, because I’ll say the same for all of them: you remain outside the realm of reality. (I agree with not getting Hugo Boss, never heard of Allen Edmunds).
Why is it “outside the realm of reality”? It is physically and mentally possible (as I know of those who do exactly what I am suggesting). Do boys expect to live in luxury being supported by their shvers just because they have a Y chromosome?
Popa, thank you for being honest.
P.S. Looks can only buy money if you are willing to sell the looks, which although frowned on in Judaism, is one of the world’s oldest and most common professions.
I think you’re either overestimating an untrained person’s earning potential, underestimating the cost of living, not taking into account that he may want to spend his time learning and be unable to earn much, not taking into account that either or both of them may be in school and unable to earn much, or some combination of the above.
Each of these points should be dealt with individually:
overestimating an untrained person’s earning potential
20K (plus ETC and tax breaks) each if totally unskilled. That being said, wouldn’t it behoove someone who wants to get married to prepare by expanding their earning potential?
underestimating the cost of living
$500-$1000 for a basement, and they can eat pasta (when there is love in the heart, there is warmth in the home).
not taking into account that he may want to spend his time learning and be unable to earn much
So if learning means marrying for money, count Chazal out of that religion. As Chazal said “ika koormi b’agma”. So the guy will have to live without Allen Edmonds shoes and Hugo Boss suits.
Furthermore, if they agree for the male to learn, let them be Moser Nefesh for learning. Live in the basement with 7 children (as I know people who do) and live off of hand-me-downs, the government, and other people’s tuition payments. Or they can just have Bitachon in Hashem that they will learn as long as they can and if they do their part, Hashem will do His.
not taking into account that either or both of them may be in school and unable to earn much
They can take out additional school loans if needed, or get a side job. They can work their way through school, as was popular before student loans.
End story, none of these require the shver to bankroll the couple or to give up on one’s Bashert just because the shver is not supporting.
I strongly disagree with your apparent assumption that any newly married couole, even without either having a job or reasonable expectation of one, can get by financially without parental help.
Why would a (non-disabled) couple not have a reasonable expectation that one or both of them would be able to obtain jobs, especially if they believe they are old (and responsible) enough to have their own family???
Discussing which apartment to rent is fine, I don’t understand why it’s even part of the discussion.
Because one may only be able to afford an $500 basement, or might be able to buy a multi-million dollar home to start off. Finances of the couple would therefore be relevant to the question.
I wouldn’t word it that way (you pin it on the paucity of “daddy’s bank account”, but you could just as easily have blamed it on his not having a job), but no, I don’t think it’s responsible to get married without some type of reasonably realistic means of support. You do?
By “reasonably realistic means of support”, do you mean obtaining the means to pay for one’s needs, or obtaining from others the means to pay for one’s needs? While I certainly agree with the former (which can be realized via some combination of a job (even unskilled), chassunah funds, student loans, etc. together with being Mistapek B’Muat), there is no reason why the latter (including the Shver’s bank account) should be in the mix as a necessity or a requirement to get married.
Gavra,
So you retract your second idea, and go back to your first idea, to which I already responded, Speaking to one’s own parents doesn’t do enough if they can’t give enough.
I didn’t think of it as two ideas, but rather a change that the couple should discuss finances during the engagement to see what apartment they should rent, etc.
Are you (and Popa) saying that someone who can’t support themselves (and their parents are also unwilling/unable) should only marry someone who can support them? Even if the girl has all maalos, and would be a good match, she should be rejected due to the size (or rather lack thereof) of daddy’s bank account??
If they figure out that there simply won’t be enough money to live on,
As I said earlier:
each child can certainly discuss the issue with their own parents, to make sure that they are able to move forward with getting married.
So that should not be a concern at all.
Waiting until after the engagement is just asking for broken engagements.
Would you mind please explaining why? Do you believe that two people who come from different strata of wealth are unable to marry or get along on a long-term basis? Is it parents who will veto?
I don’t understand your explanation. Speaking to one’s own parents doesn’t do enough if they can’t give enough.
I don’t understand your response. If one is in need of money to get married, why are they relying on the other side to give it? Call me old-fashioned, but I hope you would agree that one should not pass up on an appropriate shidduch just because the other (male or female) side’s parents are not giving money to the couple?
If I was to be snarky, I would say that the couple (especially one that wants to remain in learning) should have Bitachon that Hashem will provide for them, and not go for a shidduch based on the shver’s bank account size (or have Bitachon in Shver). But I’m not going to be snarky, so I won’t say it.
🙂
G@W: money should not be discussed until after the wedding
As you tend to do, you’ve expressed an admirable ideal which is, unfortunately, impractical.
Why is it impractical, especially as I explained it to ChizukGedarim?
P.S. Thank you for thinking my idea is admirable!
Public solution requires powerful, unafraid, accepted leadership. I see no such leadership today.
Stam that doesn’t exist in the Klal, so don’t hold your breath.
ironpenguin +1, even though you are discussing a societal, not a shidduch, issue of girls wasting their life waiting for the phone to ring.
ChizukGedarim – each child can certainly discuss the issue with their own parents, to make sure that they are able to move forward with getting married. Furthermore, the couple can discuss during the engagement (a small modification) between themselves what their finances will look like and how they plan on going forward as a couple.
I believe that would solve your concern without affecting my main points, which is to remove the pressure of funding and financing from the shidduch scene, as well as the need to match up parents with similar financial abilities to support or worse, throwing all of the responsibilities onto the girl’s parents, thereby creating many more shidduchim.
P.S. As I have told others, I’m a Gavra@Work, not an @Gavra@work 🙂
One major item:
Similar to Yeshiva tuition, money should not be discussed until after the wedding. Furthermore, the parents should not discuss with each other what they give, as it is neither sides’ business how much the other gives (or doesn’t). As an extension of this, only the couple should discuss how long they will stay in Kollel, not the parents, who would be limited to checking out family & personal issues.
Get the money out of shidduchim and you will see many more of them.
Most working women don’t have a job requiring them to regularly stand up in public, be in the news regularly and get their face plastered on TV and the newspapers everyday. A public position, by nature, is not minimizing one’s public exposure.
This. Otherwise, Serarah is not an issue as the Charaidi MKs follow the words of the Gedolim for every vote, so they have no leadership or any other power. If women were MKs (eg. Mrs. Porush), then her husband could be learning in Kollel while she parroted what the Gedolim said to say (as MK Porush does).
Lior must be right, that the Gedolim don’t believe having yet another woman in the limelight outweighs the additional Limud HaTorah that would be created if all of the MKs were women.
Maybe they’re taking a tip from Leah and Dina, who were ??????? and bode them no good.
I seem to recall it bode Leah another son.
And did he end up as a nice Jewish professional doctor or lawyer? No. Not even an accountant. He ended up shaming the family by going to Kollel!!
:)jk
And how can a non religious government, an anti religious government for that matter, make a determination who is Jewish? That is the utmost of a religious decision.
Score yet another one for separation between church (synagogue) and state.
Issues like shabbas buses, Toeivah Parades , Treif food , Army issues etc will constantly come up and you have to decide how to balance the Torah and the belifes of people who disagree. Once Moshaiach comes, thats different , but he is not here and you have to govern now. Forcing torah laws will not work and likely backfire.
And what you create is a hybrid chazer sticking out its hooves. Better off not starting and not messing with Yiddishkeit to make it fit your “State” and its needs.
anIsraeliYid – to add to what DY said, there are many times where Halacha requires us to override our otherwise good middos in the service of Hashem. As a pashut example, Tznius may be a good thing, but using tznius to not ask shailos is wrong (even with a “workaround”). Same thing here, and if that is unacceptable, this may be the wrong religion for them. So Aderaba, if their Tznius overrides their Avodas Hashem, there is something very wrong.
It goes to the old/new joke about the internet Rabbi. You tell me the P’sak you want, and I’ll find the rabbi on the internet. End story, MK Lipman is not a Bar Hachi to get involved (and neither am I, but at least I recognize it). When Rabbis Lau or Yosef (or even better, Rabbi Fuerst in Chicago) say something, we can talk.
anIsraeliYid – to your specific point, there are many things about being a Jew that are “uncomfortable”. No one is forcing anyone to become a Ger, and anyone who doesn’t want to get with the program can “convert” via the conservatives or become a Noahide, and no one will think less of them for it.
This is yet another example why politics and religion don’t mix.
Here’s to hoping the Charaidim get in the coalition this time around.
anIsraeliYid – as DY said, that is a big IF those poskim would say so and in what circumstances. Being that MK Lipman is not a Rov of any stature, he really has no business getting involved in a Halachic matter. If he wants Tevilah for citizenship into the Medinah, he can make the rules. To enter Klal Yisroel you need more than just an MK saying so.
gaw: An example would be Yated’s strident and unyielding objection to drafting yeshiva students versus the magazines being more sympathetic to the secular’s position on the issue (albeit subtly while officially standing opposed to it.)
Must be very subtle, because I haven’t seen it at all. In fact, Mishpacha had a number of symposiums in the NYC area to convince Yeshivish Americans of the correctness of the Charaidi position.
How do you know what they hold regarding the Medinah? Maybe they agree?
lookingforsem – Very seriously, I would strongly recommend not going to Benos Chava, etc., as you are too mature (and not malleable enough) for your standard Bais Yaakov Seminary.
How about instead of “Sem”, why not go to the Midrasha at Bar Ilan? It would seem to fit your qualifications.
Barring that, you can try Michlalah (which is also not a “Sem” but does fit your qualifications), but as I understand it they have an extremely difficult entrance exam.
Hatzlacha
Lior: I didn’t say Richard Joel or Dr. Rb. Stormin’ Norman Lamm. Rabbi Hershel Schachter comes from a very different viewpoint which the Novominsker (like many American Gedolim) would agree with.
Since the Yated is on the right & Mishpacha is on the left, would you care to contrast the two and why each is in their respective positions (in your opinion)?
What differences between them are you referring to?
The biggest difference (as you pointed out) is support for working. The Novominsker supports Touro in America, while Rav Shteinman would never do the same in EY.
But if you are only discussing “Core Torah Hashkafa”, there isn’t much difference between the Novominsker and Rabbi Hershel Shechter. :0
As a point of comparison, where would you put Pinny Lipshitz and the American Yated?
(Defining moderate as being the worldview of, say, Rav Shteinman, Rav Chaim and the Novominsker versus the more right-wing worldview of, say, Brisk, Rav Auerbach and Rav Shternbuch.)
Since there is such a tremendously wide gap between Rav Shteinman and the Novominsker, your definition is meaningless.
Would you care to define your version of “moderate” is actual Halacha/Hashkafic terms instead of referencing multiple people who disagree with each other?