gavra_at_work

DY – WADR, the Taz & the Shach agree with me that the issue there is Maalin Kedusha, not importance.

If you know of someone who disagrees and says it is because Torah learning is more important than either a Bais Knesses or Limud HaTorah for children (listed in 249:16) or marrying off Yesomos (listed in 249:15), I would be glad to see them, but that is not the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch.

BTW, see the Pischei Teshuva there regarding Talmidim and Melamdim. It may be a societal thing (the melamdim where guys who could hit hard), and I wonder what the halacha would be today with our rabbaim.

Chapter 20 of what? and I couldn’t find it in the Shittah, if you could please give me a dibur hamaschil.

249:16

251: 9 ????

For certain, once you are giving to individual poor people, which is further down on the list.

Thanks

I’m not telling you that everyone can be in Kollel, all I’m saying is that one has to appreciate and respect those who are living the ideal life of being fully immersed in Torah study.

100% agreed. They just lose my respect when they expect others to pay for their lifestyle. I have way more respect for the American rebbe with 8 children in a one bedroom apartment than the kollel guy from EY who expects me to pay for their children’s apartment.

I think we agree.

Found it in Perek Yud Alef (11) as a Zohar in Vayikra.

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The perek quotes a whole bunch of Zohars regarding learning, for example how it is being Mekayim the world, and how anyone who learn Torah every day is Zoche to Olam Haba:

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Shockingly, the Zohars do not limit the Kiyum to those in Kollel, but rather expands the right of Kiyum to all Jews (even MO, OO and Zionists, Chas V’Shalom!!!)

I know, it’s probably a modern-day addition and a forgery :-), so you will have to find me a different source that only Kollel learning (and none other) is mekayem the world.

@gavra.. I want a completely different lifestyle from my parents. After 120 that rich husband, fancy house, car, & degree will be nothing & I’m not interested in wasting my life on nothing.

Only if you do nothing with it. I’m certainly not suggesting that; it would be such a waste of potential mitzvos and maasim tovim.

PBA: And they believe they have a better idea of what is “good” for her than she does. Due to their vastly greater experience, it behooves her to at least consider that they may be correct. Even if not, they have no reason to support her down a path with they believe will lead to disaster.

It’s probably worth pointing out that the writer of the letter had no problem with women learning computer programming to support their families. That skill is one that, presumably, they went to some sort of institution to learn.

It is questionable if being a code monkey (programming from a course) is a “skill” any different than typing was in the 60s & 70s.

So now my question is for everyone- what is wrong with someone like me?

I apologize, but the answer would take up way too much time and space, and the mods would never approve such a long list.

🙂

Seriously, it is the old argument of strengthening the people inside the walls vs. strengthening the walls themselves. Charaidism has chosen to strengthen the walls separating them from all outsiders (non Charaidis) and not the people inside, while others have chosen to knock down the walls and attempt to strengthen those inside.

As you point out, the correct answer for most is probably a combination of the two. That being said, simple people who can not understand nuance and (although book-smart) have no street-smarts will fail from any outside exposure, hence the Charaidi shittah.

OURtorah, a maamin believes that Hashem gives what he wants us to have, regardless of hishtadlus. Nevertheless, hishtadlus is a chiyuv.

A huge Machlokes in Machshava, and certainly not pashut. Certainly here, where many would say that not getting an education nowadays is Atzlus and a choice not to do appropriate Hishtadlus, it is much less Pashut.

This is not the time or place to have this discussion.

Thanks for posting this, as it gives an inside view of what Charaidi society is thinking. If the Rav believes children should be living in Bedouin tents and foraging for vegetables in order for the man to stay in learning and the wife at home, Kol HaKavod, and he should believe that Hashem will provide. If he wants people to have apartments, heat and store-bought food, then he had better come up with a plan B.

FFBBT613 – Sorry, but if you want their monetary support, you will have to play by their rules. Unless you were planning on paying for seminary yourself? You get to make your own decisions once you are 18, but not with their money.

I suppose that depends on one’s priorities, doesn’t it?

It is difficult to think of our religion as one that prioritizes individual learning over feeding one’s children. To take the other side, it is offen a Gemorah (that I quoted earlier) in Eiruvin.

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The final arbiter would have to be Halacha, in which we Pasken against the Gemorah in Eruvin. From the Rambam Ishus 12:14

?? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ????, ?? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ??????, ?? ????? ??? ?? ????. ???? ?????, ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????; ??? ?? ???–?????? ??, ???????? ????, ??????? ??. ?? ?? ???–??????? ???? ?????? ???????, ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ???? ???? ???, ???? ?? ?? ???????. ???? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ??.

So Halacha says the priority should be the children. Unless you have another read on it?

I have heard from people like Berel Wein that people in Israel are DISCOURAGED from working.

I heard of a story from a Rav here whose daughter married someone from Bnei Brak. Since she was from the US she spoke perfect english and a few places wanted to hire her since she spoke perfect english. She was discouraged from taking these jobs.

BS”D

With all due respect, you are dealing with a separate issue. The Charaidi shittah in EY is that they have to be separated from the rest of the population in order to maintain their Kedusha (right or wrong is not the issue here). (This is one reason why no one wants to hire Charaidim, as they impose work conditions of either their own isolation or Charaidism on the entire office.) In your example, where an English speaking position would have to deal in-person with non-Charaidim, one certainly L’shitasam would be discouraged from taking such a position. This has nothing to do with the general idea of working for women, where in EY there are many Charaidi Woman Only call centers and other jobs that do not require such exposure.

A few had admitted to me that “Programming” (Meaning government Programs) was one of things they did.

And why is this a problem? If the government is willing to pay able-bodied people to sit and study religion, why should you have any qualms with it (as long as it is done legally?)

As Yayin Yashan says, in EY it is a much bigger issue. From a recent Adopt-A-Kollel e-mail:

RABBOSAI, A FIRE IS BURNING IN ERETZ YISROEL. THAT FIRE THREATENS TO CONSUME THE OLAM HATORAH. LITERALLY.

How can you turn away a Rosh Kollel who says that in his kollel there are yungeleit who own one suit and who have not bought themselves a brand new suit since the chasunah?! How can you look someone in the eye, when he says, he has not been able to buy his wife an outfit in 15 years??!! How can you turn away a person who does not have milk for his children? How can you turn away a person who gives ONE formula bottle to his baby each day, because he cannot afford sufficient formula?

DY, any thoughts?

yayin yashan bkli chadash – Al Pi the shitah of Daas Yochid, you should just hold out for a shver who will support for 5-10 years so you can stay in learning.

Gavra, do Syrians have a different yetzer hora? There’s no way to rationalize a 3-4 year relationship as a necessary prerequisite to marriage. The Syrians I know, who follow halacha, do things similarly to the litvish/yeshivish: approximately 6-15 dates over a month or two.

Maybe she becomes a pelegesh? 🙂

Put a comma in between. I agree with you regarding the Yetzer Hara, but don’t think the sem vs. college vs. getting married vs. going to Kollel is something I should opine on. For example, Satmar has its own derech for Kollel, and it is not for me to say that is right or wrong.

seemingly a open violation if darkei ha’emori.

What is your halachic basis? I’d like to hear this one. The Emori also breathed and ate, so are those darkei ha’emori as well?

“Not what I see in the very yeshivish crowd.”

Not sure where to draw the line of what is “very yeshivish”. Anyway, I have a young female relative in Shidduchim. She has been told that some bochurim are expecting 10 years of support. That’s like a half million dollars.

But each one is the “Best bochur in Lakewood!”

But he apparently lost that battle, and as you say, it’s very hard to resist, which is why, although I don’t like it, I think a mountain is being made of a molehill. A bochur wanting a Borsalino, in the reality we live in, is not optimal, but is not indicative of extreme decadence on his part.

I rather see it as a sign of the “extreme decadence” of our reality/society (American Yeshivish), instead of the individual. It is not a battle that we will win. We had our chance with wedding Takanos, and when the Olam saw that there were “exceptions”, the whole thing fell apart. We will not get another chance any time soon.

So yes, big picture it is not worth harping on. Better to work on shidduchim for girls who are looking to get married.

No, gavra, they’re not perfect, but by and large kollel yungerleit are a great deal more accomplished in the middah of histapkus b’muat than baalei batim. A small minority live in luxury; the majority try to find ways to minimize their expenses. If people want to pick on Borsalinos, they will, but the general theme here is way, way, off the mark.

I mostly don’t disagree with you, but there is an exception for items that are needed to be “socially” acceptable, which seems to in many cases be a requirement (and each circle has it’s own gedarim of what that is). As an example, I have been told of “sweater wars” in the Mir. The expectation to wear a Bors or be a nebuch (which could affect shidduchim) is similar.

Don’t get me started on Lexi, Infinities and Mercedes’ of the Yeshivish velt, to say nothing of the top of the line Leather Odyssey replaced every two years.

As an aside, I believe it was Rabbi Bender in Far Rockaway who was very against the Borsalino for this reason, that it creates an expectation on a child that is very hard to resist.

flatbusher – you can’t do it at 13 for the 13 year old who wants this hat or the $3000 tefilin (as in the Yated), but you might be able to do something for the child for when he will (hopefully) become an adult.

That being said, many do learn most of the day, and in their defense, they have been taught that what they are doing is correct. If you wanted something other than a child expecting a $300 hat, you should have started from day 1 teaching them the middah of histapkus (what’s that?) and how they don’t need to keep up with the Cohens’. If you want your child to live with nothing and stay in learning, teach them and sacrifice for learning yourself. By the time your child is Bar Mitzvah, that barn door has long closed behind you.

DY: Makes it that once they are married, they are still not responsible for themselves. You can argue that is not a big deal (and it may not be).

You seem to believe that a couple should get married before they are able to be responsible for themselves, let alone having children. The parents of such couple can continue to be responsible for them. Agree or disagree?

Disagree. The equation between preparation for marriage and responsibility to maintain the marriage is a false one.

I’m not understanding what you mean. Would you please elaborate?