Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
DaasYochid – Absolutely not. But how do I know that the wedding is in Torah V’Yirah (wherever that is) and not in the Palace (wherever that is. Ateres Avraham has been mentioned as a more expensive hall). How do I know that the money is not going to buy an apartment? How do I know that ….. Perhaps that is why Syag Lchochma’s suggestion is appealing, as the fund would only pay out if a minimalist approach is taken (CZ, no custom Shaitels, studio apartment, ikea furniture, etc.) .
I want to delve into a good point that you make. Shelo l’vayesh mi she’ein lo is certainly a Torah concept. However, it doesn’t say the Bas Melech traded with the Bas Ani. There are appropriately haves (and “have lesses”) in the Jewish world, and Chazal recognize as such. There is a minimal standard that should be met (the Gemorah Kesubos says 50 Zuz is appropriate). It is when a maximalist approach is expected, and children are embarrassed when they don’t have what Yenem has, and WE VALIDATE THEIR FEELINGS, then it becomes a non-Torah concept.
P.S. I did a google search for Torah V’Yirah and see it is Satmar. That doesn’t surprise me, as they have their heads screwed on right regarding issues like these.
Avram in MD –
No, I don’t think a Chinese style cultural revolution against lavish weddings would be very productive at anything except marginalizing an already vulnerable segment of our communities
So you accept the status quo.
A jew who cares – Truthfully, depending on the situation of the parents, I would be impressed. That being said, Ittisa (and the Shver) would probably pay more in to upgrade from turkey to pastrami, with Potato Kugel. 🙂
Mammele – You chose the “almost”, i.e. Pikuach Nefesh which comes before Yeshivos. So does Pidyon Shevuyim, and possibly paying for Yesomos to get married. Ayin YD 249. Shkoyach.
Your second post reflects a societal problem, that the poor Kallah whose parents and in-laws can’t pay tuition, have staggering credit card debit and feed the children at Kiddushim on Shabbos has the need to show off her diamond (1+ Carats only!), watch and bracelet to everyone, and is embarrassed if she can’t. Kollel (and yes, that has to be part of the discussion) only makes it worse.
And I agree with you about American materialism creeping up on us, the question is how to curb it, not how to quit helping each other out financially.
IMHO, it is not really Materialism, it is American Equality (part of the liberalism that our community has been co-opted into believing). The poor among us should not just be helped to get by, but should be raised to the level of everyone else who helps pay for it. This is not a Torah concept, but a bleeding heart liberal one.
While i am NOT someone who asks for community funds EVEN THO i don’t make ends meet, I still dont agree that you can be so harsh toward those who are WANTING to help. Not everyone who asks for help is begging, and not everyone who gives help did so against their will.
If someone chooses to help (example, gives to a Chossan/Kallah fund), that is recognizing that the times require more than what is really needed. Those funds can then distribute as they see fit (which I personally disagree with, but do agree that it is still a mitzvah to help).
My point is more that it shouldn’t be this way, and funding the system only exacerbates the problem. When we ask why weddings are so expensive, and why everyone needs so much to get married, we need only to look in the mirror.
P.S. This is my general shittah, which is that Halacha (read: SA) requires almost all of the popular “Tzedakos” out there to be pushed aside in favor of funding local Yeshivos which children attend. I can reflect that in my own giving, but understand there are others who have asked Shailos of their Rov and understand differently. It is not specific to people asking/begging for weddings, Kollels, or Chai Rotel Mashke 🙂 (or anything else).
So here we are, letting social pressure make us do crazy things and feeling degraded if we don’t.
+1, and THIS is what needs to be changed.
If someone else wants to give another Jew money to make a fancier wedding and support their child’s living arrangements, don’t begrudge or complain about him giving. He’s giving his own money not your money.
If you saw another Jew not following Shulchan Aruch (YD 249), you wouldn’t say something!! I’m shocked!! You of all people should support what I’m doing.
DY: If you change the assumption to 1%, it is still over $10K.
Syag:
1: YOU have the right to sacrifice, but don’t have the right to force or shame others into supporting your daughter’s schooling.
2: It is certainly arguable that teaching your daughter parnassah is a mitzvah. There is no reason why making a extravagant wedding, buying a $4,000 shaitel, and $2,000 straimel is a mitzva.
Avram in MD – These wouldn’t be the norms if the Klal would not support it. The best way to do it would be to have leadership, like Satmar does, and have the Kehilah pay for everyone, and severely tax those who want extra. Since that isn’t happening in the “Yeshiva World”, the only way to stop it (unless you have another idea) is to stop funding it, and use the money to support local Yeshivos (which is the Halacha in any case).
Syag Lchochma – Ein Lo Elah Mekomo V’Shayto.
1: It would bother me less if they didn’t expect it from the Klal, who has better things to spend money on. It would bother me less if they asked Rich Uncle Pennybags (from Monopoly), or applied for a loan from the bank.
2: None the less, that would still bother me, as the expectations of all involved (the parents and the couple) as to what a wedding and presents “have to be” is just not Yashrus (not when the parents are struggling themselves), and it certainly is not right to beg (or ask!) for the Klal to pay for your extravagances.
And some kids would probably rather wait a few years than get married without anything, but we as a klall should discourage it, as it’s counterproductive and against Yiddishkeit as we know it.
Some children would also rather wait a few years than get married without life support in the bank, should we encourage that as well?
DaasYochid – The key word is “normal”. Who defines that? Certainly 50 years ago none of this was “normal”.
Vanguard was an example. I’m still earning 4% (and more) on Federal EE bonds, although I will grant you that 2% (or less) is more of the very recent norm (and everyone is looking to catch up, from life insurance companies to unions to the Federal Government). Alternatively, a shul can set up a fund so that they can leverage the larger amounts of cash flow.
Mammele – Why are all of these items an expectation of the couple, especially if their parents are struggling to put food on the table and a roof over their heads?!!!? That is (one of) the real question(s).
A jew who cares – Would they not be married if they make a wedding in their local shul, and bring in turkey sandwiches? Or a backyard wedding in the summer? Or the parents’ dining room? Why do we need to spend $50,000 (or even $5,000) on a five hour event that they can’t afford and have to beg others to pay for it?!!
DaasYochid – That is a very good point, and one that needs to be made. There has to be different solutions for different classes (in the Marxist sense) of people. Those who can’t make ends meet, or can’t put away money (even a rather small amount like $10K per child) should recognize that they can’t make the same Chassunahs that others are making. If that means they can’t marry a Wolfson or Rothschild, so be it. It is not the responsibility of the Klal that every Ani should be able to marry Rothschild’s son. If the marry someone similar to themselves, expectations will be lower and they will live on less, maybe much less. The wedding might be rolls under a canopy, or in a shul, but they will still be married.
Those who can put away a smaller amount than what is “Socially acceptable” should make a smaller wedding, not beg others for money for what is a 5 hour event. This may help:
VFNIX (Vanguard 500) had a 4.1% return over the past 15 years (on average), as an example.
In many communities the takana weddings are working. So they’ve accomplished bringing down the cost of marrying off, but they still need outside help to marry off their children.
Perhaps I’m just not understanding, but what costs are there to marry off children that they still need “outside help”? Didn’t they realize over the past 15-20 years that they would need to marry off children, and save accordingly?
As Chazal say, Eizehu Chacham HaRoeh Es HaNolad.
P.S. Unless the parents are not “Chachomim”, and can’t understand the concept of saving. Then their children should certainly be helped, B’Din Yesomim.
P.P.S. Talking about Takanos, perhaps there should be a Takana that one must put away $10 a week per child for their Chassunah, then they would have over $11K by age 18 (assuming only a 2% return. A 6% return would yield almost $17K).
Joseph – As HaLevi said in the Daas Torah thread, I don’t need a Rov to tell me Shulchan Aruch, that an Am HaAaretz can do. What you need a Rov for is to interpret and advise/Pasken what you should do.
So yes, after he discusses what to to with his Rov, he can have a Minhag not like the Shulchan Aruch.
I still like my translation the best 🙂
There are two separate issues here. Making a wedding/getting married.
When you find the right person you do not put off getting married. However, making a wedding is a choice. I remember, in my generation, 40 years ago, several of my friends got married without a wedding – with a rav, family & a minyan. Then her friends & family made “extra special” sheva brachot for the couple.
I know it is hard, but just ignore social pressures.
I second this. There is no need to not get married; one can then pitch a tent in Lakewood’s Tent City and search for roots in the swamp instead of relying on others.
Wolf +1
DY – Danke.
AK – If there was precedent (which there could have been in the mass hysteria after 9/11, or had they crashed into Indian Point instead of the Towers, etc.), then the law would not stand in anyone’s way.
Inter arma enim silent leges
akuperma – The most obvious recent point of departure (since you changed the question) is 9/11. If camps had been created for Muslims, then there is no reason why Religious Jews would not be next. Certainly could have stepped once “Goldman” and “Sachs” and “Bernanke” (i.e. Jews) could have been blamed for a more serious economic collapse.
As far as probability, the Holocaust was so obviously the Yad Hashem it is worthless to project. Our job is to follow and fear Him, and get along with each other so that Moshiach arrives.
DY: What stops the husband from showing up to court and the Bais Din Paskening that a Get should not be given? I don’t see the issue as “withholding a Get”, but rather the (related) issue of husbands not showing up to court to be judged.
IMHO, if the husband is just holding out for more money/rights, then the Bais Din will (appropriately) Pasken that a Get must be given. If he really believes that there is still a chance at keeping it alive (and Bais Din agrees), and she just doesn’t want to, she will be Paskened as a Moredes and will lose the support (via the Bais Din).
It is (Al pi the Ramban) a mitzva to eat fruit of Shmittah and treat it appropriately. Therefore the answer this year is certainly yes.
🙂
Joseph – So your beef is not with the pre-nup, but the Bais Din that implements it. Go argue Halacha with Rabbis Hershel Shachter and Gedaliah Schwartz, not here.
where normative halacha permits him to choose not to grant a requested divorce.
Whose “normative Halacha”? If you hold of the P’sak of the BDUSA, then it is their decision whether the husband will have to give a Get or not. Worst case, he will go to court and the Bais Din will say the he doesn’t have to give a Get.
they can and should give in to all of the husbands demands to get their Get
This isn’t the objection. The objection is that he has the halachic and moral right to choose to continue the marriage.
Hu Hadin, Hu HaTaam.
DY – Even if that is what PBA’s Rosh Yeshiva said, PBA wouldn’t post it here. So there is no reason for me to continue to chepper him on it.
Just because rebbeim told their talmidim controversial things doesn’t mean they belong on a public website.
V’hamavin Yavin.
Thank you.
Unlikely. They’ve said far more unpopular things.
So what is the Sevarah? And what would they have said that would cause a similar out roar?
I’m not following you at all.
Harder to get divorced = strengthens marriage
Easier to get divorced = weakens marriage
This ain’t rocket science, yo.
Certainly true. The Gemorah (as I paraphrased before) certainly does consider the feelings of the husband that his wife is planning for his death or divorce (IIRC it was by the sugyah of her selling shibudim on his land??)
However, IF doing so would help Agunos, Chazal have a track record that we do things to help Agunos that we otherwise would never do. Certainly here, where all we are doing is preparing for an Aino Mesaerv L’din, we should remove the possibility of a woman becoming an Agunah.
However, if your general viewpoint (and I strongly suspect that your Rosh Yeshiva agrees to this) is that modern Agunos are not really Agunos, as they can and should give in to all of the husbands demands to get their Get, then there would be no reason to go one Etzba past the normal Halachic line.
The reason he can’t say that is because it isn’t politically correct? There is no place for cowardice in Halacha.
ubiquitin – A kesubah is also if he dies, so we can just say that she is preparing for her future husband’s death. (as The Gemoras discuss!)
owl – IF (and that is a big IF) you go to college, you need to go for something that is directly related to Parnassah. If you stam go for underwater basket weaving, it Takah is useless.
What is the median figure once you only take into account STEM (including the health fields)?
Chassidim follow the dictates of their Rebbe, which is (for almost everyone) not Kollel full time as long as you can. They still understand what it means “Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Penimah”.
not because it is a ch’shash of a bad get, but because it is wrong hashkafically to plan for divorce before you are married
Nothing against your “Rosh Yeshiva” (who could easily be anyone from YCT to JTS), but that is a huge Cop-out. Chazal were Mesaken so many things that went against their feeling of right (preparing an actual get for someone going to war, WHILE THEY WERE ACTUALLY MARRIED!!, and GIVING IT Al T’nai!!) in order to protect women from becoming Agunos. If his (if it is a “he”) shittah is that it is assur, say so. If it is that the women whose husbands are not giving them Gitten (for whatever reason) are not really Agunos because he wants to blame the victim, say so. What you quote him saying seems to be nothing but cowardice. Rav Henoch would have never gone for it.
End Rant.
BS”D:
I know that I’m getting into the game late, but hopefully Hashem will help me in adding something positive to the conversation.
1: I like MW13’s summary of the issue. Filter/Webchaver is a must, and we can go Bidieved (smartphone with gedarim) if needed to be connected 24/6 for work (which is Stam a bad idea, but sometimes needed). And yes, there is room to be Meikel for Hefsed Merubah built into the system (not like you need me to back up Chazal), but you need to have a Rov.
2: The #1 issue is people blaming the internet, finances, shaitels, Tznius, and anything other than themselves for what goes wrong. The famous quote of Rav Yisroel Salanter applies, except that people aren’t big enough to take on Mussar and would rather blame others. Frum Yidden are not willing to be responsible for themselves (and yes, it includes many of the other issues mentioned). Part of being responsible is to have a Rov who knows you well (not running to Rav Chaim K. to see if you need to do Libun on your fork 🙂 and who you can discuss all of these issues with. But yes, finances and internet are huge issues (finances being a very very old one, and internet being a newish one).
3: Girls do not understand the power of the Dark Side. There is such a large potential Nichshol in having anything: A computer/monitor (even without internet!!!), a camera (which can be used to view any type of picture or video, even without internet), or even a telephone (for those in the USA who may remember the old-school concept of 900 numbers). $40 will get an interested bochur a throw-away phone on which they can get anything. This ties into #2, where people have to take responsibility for THEMSELVES (and their children!!) and create appropriate gedarim that work for them. There is no “one size fits all” answer to what is a very large Nisayon of our generation.
BSD:
Patur Aval Assur – I don’t really mean either (maybe the first), and don’t understand how the second isn’t Kefirah.
If the RBSO created the world (given) and it has a purpose, “Right” would be moving towards that purpose. Being that the RBSO gave us a map how to get there, following it is inherently “Right”.
Have a good Shabbos,
G@W
Hat = Religious, Religious = Hat.
In memory of Sir Terry.
DY – Killing is not always “wrong”. As I’ve brought many times in the past, killing Alois Schicklgruber in 1840 at age 3 would have been a positive. Does that make it moral? Is it right? Perhaps.
I think your point is that “morality” is only in the eyes of the beholder, and to that I agree.
DY, I’m agreeing with you. It really doesn’t make a difference whether I think wiping out Amalek is right or wrong. On the other side, Europeans for over 1000 years thought killing Zhids was “right”.
If I don’t “sense” that killing is wrong, and/or I can’t explain why it is wrong, it is still wrong.
Counterargument: Amalek, and Zhids.
PAA: There is your sense of right and wrong (morality), and then there is absolute right and wrong (the RBSO). They will not be the same; at times even the Malachim didn’t believe Hashem was in the right (e.g. the Asarah Harugei Malchus).
newbee:
Of course you can also give the dollar to the Alei Yarok political party as well 🙂 We are discussing Halachos of Tzedaka, not someone Stam willing to throw away their money. That is a very different question.
Patur Aval Assur: Thank you, that is the Halacha.
By this logic we should not give anything to anyone without an intensive background check,
That is the Halacha, which is why many larger areas have a Va’ad Tzedaka that does the checking for you. It is also why you are better off providing items (such as food or clothes) to Aniyim, or directly paying their grocery or medical bill, and not money, where appropriate. Part of the sickness is that people buy what they don’t need (as an extreme, drugs), and that doesn’t help them at all.
shulchanhashalem – Well said.
Once again, I’ll point out that there are Halachos of Tzedaka just like there are Halachos of Shechitah or Basar V’Chalav. Ask your LOR if you have questions on whom to give and how much.
Were all Jews in Eretz Yisrael to become charedi, the economy would collapse and there would be mass starvation — unless the Arab rashaim wiped us all out before we could starve to death because there would no longer be an IDF. There would then be no Torah in Eretz Yisrael.
I completely disagree (although I will say there was an article that quoted the Bostoner Rebbe agreeing with you). IMHO what would result is that the Army would be fully run Al Pi Torah principles, and the Charaidim would join the workforce and Army in droves.
The current system doesn’t work because they are “poschim al shtei has’ifim”, by taking money from but not being part of the Israeli state. If it became Torahdik, they could fully join.
Avram in MD – Missed by a mile.
Go back, read it, and try again if you wish.
DY: I wanted to get to the point that I ended up having to make myself regarding the societal issue.
And it is DISCWORLD
DaasYochid – and I’m not saying one should or Chazal did (or did you not read my posts?)
DaasYochid – It is not up to us, Chazal said it is true (which you still don’t believe, YOU KOFER!!! :). Don’t blame me. As I explained, that is not relevant to whether we should support Talmidei Chachomim Muflagim who don’t consider themselves on that level, which we certainly should (which is why it is a moot point).
APY: After you read my post above yours, I think your point is moot.
Shulchan HaShalem: The Shulchan Aruch discusses hilchos Kedimah. I also had a long discussion with DY about it here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kollel-life-reality/page/5
1. Do you think poverty can or should be defined in this way for a non-agrarian society? Are you asserting that there is no food or housing insecurity among Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel?
Do you think that the Torah should be updated for a non-agrarian society. Hm….. No. If I did, I would (rightfully) be called a Reform Jew.
While this may be proper for someone to hold this for himself, I do not think it is proper to say it to someone else.
That is the same “your Cheshbon” point DY brought. Asked and answered.
Since you are missing the point, (and DY is a Kofer anyway, so no-one will listen to him :), I’ll explain. Chazal was dealing with the individual, that for an individual to learn to his maximum potential, poverty is a requirement, as all of your Amailus should be in Torah.
What we are dealing with in Israel is not the Torah learning of individuals, but having a society that is Ruba D’Ruba learners. Of course, in such a society, only very few individuals (probably even above those who The Chofetz Chaim describes as “Muflag”) will be on the level that Chazal describe is necessary to maximize Torah learning . The rest, while they do learn, are not capable of the maximization that Chazal suggests. Therefore, in order for them to remain in such a society, they need to have more. Otherwise, they could give it up and leave the society.
As DY appropriately pointed out, one of the biggest Tzedakos is giving to those Muflagim B’Torah (who are not on the level of Pas B’Melach and therefore need), and that is who should be supported.
Finally, this assumes that the Charaidi goal is to maximize Limud HaTorah. If one argues (and there is room) that the goal is to perpetuate Charaidism, then certainly living off of others would maximize that goal over living in poverty.
zahavasdad – I believe you are incorrect. Netanyahu will not take back Lapid unless the Charaidim are unrealistic. The Charaidim have too much to lose by not being in the government so they will be “bought” easy for less than they would if they could risk being out.
DaasYochid 🙂 Very good. There certainly is a difference between asking for my (or others’)money and taking someone else’s item, and for you to compare the two is certainly a “false equivalence”.
I’m not saying they should live B’Dachkus, I’m rather asking whether living B’Dachkus furthers their stated goal of maximization of Limud HaTorah or not. Does it? Chazal seems to say that it does.
nolongersingle – I now have to Cheshbon if I should give or not. I have stated an argument why perhaps I should not give to Adopt-A-Kollel. I certainly have the right to justify why I (and others) should give money elsewhere where it does affect me, such as our local Mosdos.
The main reason it’s ridiculous is because you’re saying it on others’ cheshbon.
Once they ask me for money (which they did), it becomes my Cheshbon.
The other reason it’s ridiculous is because regardless of misplaced idealism, the reality is that someone can learn better without financial strain. No one without an agenda would fail to realize this, and no matter how well I explain (and there are certainly many far more eloquent than I), I won’t convince someone who doesn’t want to be convinced.
Are you saying that Chazal (whom I was quoting) are “misplaced idealists” and “have an agenda”? You’re even more of a Kofer than I am 🙂
DaasYochid – Mind explaining why to the Olam? I agree it is (maybe) ridiculous, but explaining why should bring out an extremely good point regarding Charaidi society that would be more palatable to others if you say it (over me). The devil is in the details.
Kol – Hate to do this, but Chazal say that Aniyus is a necessary quality for Kinyan HaTorah (I don’t think anyone is at the point where they are beyond eating only bread, salt & water, and sleeping on the floor of the Bais Medrash). If the end goal is to learn as much as possible, you (and other Charaidim) should embrace Aniyus.
nolongersingle – for #1, Both Meretz & Yesh (Ain) Atid want to lift and help all Israelis (granted by their definition of “help”), Charaidim included. A more similar comparison would be to the Arab parties, who are solely interested in helping the Palestinian cause (as compared to the Limmud Hatorah cause, lehavdil).
As for #2, you are 100% correct. That is why the OP’s assumption is wrong. He assumes that the main issue is the lack of jobs and poverty. A real Israeli Charaidi would probably say the biggest issue is that there isn’t enough Limud HaTorah.
So yes, the Charaidim are guilty of not supporting the “Israeli” cause, but Hashem and his Torah. That is not something they are ashamed of. Should they be?