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Avram: An Ox (or any other animal or object) that is in the process of endangering human life may be destroyed in order to preserve the aforementioned human life.
That being said, I found a Rambam that is Mashma like you:
Rotzeach 1:8 & 1:9:
? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????–????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????, ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????; ??? ???? ??????–?????? ???? ?? ?????, ????? “?? ????, ????” (????? ??,??): [?] ??? ?? ???? ?? ????, ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????.
? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ????–???? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ??? ???: ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????. ??? ??????? ????, ??? ?????? ??, ???? ????? ??? ???? ???, ??? ??? ???? ?? ????.
The language of “?????” ties in the previous Halacha, and says to me that even though the fetus is given some level of personhood (although less than a born person), none the less as it has a status of Rodef you are required to kill it. Once it’s head passes through, they have the same level of personhood and therefore they are both/neither considered to have a din of Rodef.
I would still like to see clearer evidence in the Meforshim if anyone could provide it.
I think in this case context is a better guide than a concordance.
There is also a Shor Rodef. The Halacha would simply be telling us at what point the din of the fetus changes from a Shor Rodef to an Adam Rodef.
The fact that the fetus can have the status of a rodef at all implies that it does have an aspect of personhood
Interesting theory and not implausible. I would expect there to be a source in Rishonim or Achronim as such (Rodef = person), and invite the Olam to help out with finding such a source. It would be difficult though. The closest that I can think of off the top of my head is a Shor Rodef.
Avram in MD:
Therefore, I don’t think we should be using the halachic argument regarding fetal status with respect to the mother as a cover for the secular/pro-choice position.
I would think that first you would have to prove that the Torah gives any care to the life of a fetus more than the monetary interest that it’s father might have in it.
?????-???????? ?????????, ????????? ??????? ????? ????????? ?????????, ????? ???????, ??????–??????? ????????, ????????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????????, ???????, ???????????.
Rambam in Chovel U’Mazik 4:1
????? ?? ?????, ????? ?????–?? ?? ?? ??? ??????–???? ???? ??? ????? ????, ???? ???? ?????.
Also, regarding Chavalah, the Rambam in Chovel U’Mazik 5:1
???? ???? ?????, ??? ????? ??? ?????. ??? ????? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????–??? ??? ??? ????, ??? ??? ??? ????, ??? ??????–??? ?? ???? ??? ????, ????? “?? ????? . . . ??????” (????? ??,?): ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????.
Avram in MD – I thought the argument against person-hood of a fetus was from the Din of Rodef, that we don’t say “Mai Chaziz” about the fetus and it’s mother at any stage, even though we would say it once “Hotze Rosho”.
Not sure that is relevant to your main point though.
Joe – go back to the prior threads where this has been discussed ad nauseam. The one Streetgeek referenced is one of many.
Joe – exactly. You define morality as Halacha. Therefore, you are discussing something different than everybody else here.
I’m going to quote myself in regards to Joe:
If you define Halacha as “morality”, that is perfectly understood. Just realize that you are not using the word in the way other people would understand it. It is like calling an object with four walls, a roof and a door a “cat” because that is what you think a “cat” should look like.
streekgeek, thanks for the link, and I doubt anything new will come out of us looking at it again.
DY: Hence the ?
Syag, first and foremost, Mazel Tov.
1: I thought that the Sheva Brachos is by the girl’s side?
2: Contrary to popular belief, there is no chyuv whatsoever to make a Sheva Brachos. It is only if you happen to have a seudah that fits the criterion that you make the brachos.
3: As I have posted before, your best bet for a sponsorship is to contact www(dot)gatesfoundation(dot)org.
🙂 Mazel Tov again.
What is non Jewish music? 🙂
I don’t understand the conclusion at all, and why Rav Zilber assumes the Rambam and the Rashbam disagree. If anything, the Rambam disagrees with the Gemorah in Bava Basra (that there is some advantage of going in a different direction), not the Rashbam’s P’shat.
??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??????; ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????–????, ??? ???? ???? ?????.
Even according the the P’shat of the Yad Ramah, all he is saying is that if one does stare, it is more his fault because he took that path.
Besides, the whole Gemorah’s question seems to be nonsensical according to this P’shat:
?????? ??) ????? ????? ????? ??? ?”? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???”? ????? ??? ????? ?????
The whole Gemorah is talking about an ???? ?????, not a ?????
newbee: So sure, the husband can make zero and the wife 500K. Doesn’t mean anything.
I find it troubling how some people view it as either learn torah and let the wife support you or get a job and support your wife and only learn an hour or 2 a day. Why cant it be a little of each?
If someone can pull it off, Kol HaKavod. Harbei Asu V’lo Alsu B’Yadam.
american_yerushalmi – Whose Da’as Torah? Rav Kook and Rav Solivetchik? Or Rav Solivetchik and Rav Karlitz? Or maybe Rav Yosef?
There are so many opinions of Gedolei Yisroel, one can safely hold almost anything regarding the Medinah and still be following “Daas Torah”.
That all being said, I would argue that YWN is not “Charaidi”, but “Yeshivish”, and yes they are very different. Part of that difference is the attitude towards “Daas Torah”.
newbee – I’d like to see an explanation of finances before claiming that they “make it”. Depending on where you live and how many children you have, 80K (pre-tax) may not even cover tuition.
If you want a simple explanation, they are either 1: have 0-1 children (maybe 2), or 2: not paying tuition (either by getting a break or discount for being a school employee, in which case the “non” tuition is really post-tax income).
DY – I’m not so certain. Besides, if it is a Bochur who had his own business, made it successful, and then scaled back, what was he doing out of Yeshiva in the first place?
coffee addict – They should be open to their opposition to the state and its institutions (similar to Brisk or Eidah Charaidis), and not join governments that do not implement a full-blown Halachic State (Lishitasom), just like the Arabs who do not join the government because it is a “Jewish” state (and they believe it should be a non-denominational state).
Taking their money is one (large) step in the ability of the government to coerce the Charaidim to be in the army. If all Charaidim would be like the Briskers, we would not be having this discussion.
akuperma – It is the Charaidim’s fault that they are being drafted. The state has no intention of drafting Arabs, and for good reason! If the Charaidim would treat the state like the Arabs treat the State, then they would not be drafted either. The problem is that the Charaidim are “Posach al Stei Seifim” regarding Zionism, and they have none other than themselves to blame.
newbee – Unfortunately, 80K doesn’t begin to reach what a frum family (with children) needs to “make it”, especially if one pays full tuition (I know, they are stooges, but there are still some out there who believe in it). Most of the time if one works, it has to be “all out” just to pay the Yeshivos, let alone seminaries, weddings, and sons in law in Kollel.
Avi – I dealt with that 6 days ago. You can speculate as much as you wish, though.
Avi K – If you wish to claim that “people like Achitofel, Doeg, Achav and Menashe” were Tzaddikim when Chazal said they were not, Kol HaKavod. I’ll let Chazal (and the facts) speak for themselves.
Gavra, which original points? I was addressing your contention that the Chessed l’Avraham was referring to “people like Achitofel, Doeg, Achav and Menashe”.
“??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????”
By saying ??, “everyone”, means that if there is even one exception, that counterexample proves that the statement is incorrect. I have brought at least four counterexamples.
If you would like to say that “most” people in EY are Tzaddikim (which is what I think you mean, and has no relevance to our prior discussion), I would like to know the reason for your conjecture (which would not be the pasuk, as we see there were those who were not spit out).
Avi, you aren’t addressing my points at all. I agree with everything you said, but my original points are still valid.
DaasYochid – Big difference between $50,000 kitchens and a $100 per person dinner charge. Most shuls charge more than $100. Mishpacha had an article recently regarding the need to attract donors by having star events. This seems like just that.
BarryLS1 – That is what everyone says, but they have said that many times in our history. Sometimes we just get a disappointment, other times we get a Shabbtzai Tzvi. I’ll stick to the words of Hashem via the Malach Micha’el to Daniel over others’ soothsaying, thanks.
Avi – The Satmar Rov would certainly disagree 🙂 Besides, once I have a counterexample, the whole point of someone in EY automatically being a Tzaddik is disproved.
Barry, you know what they say about assuming…..
The question was if you are a mekubal, you have better things to do than be on the internet. And no, the other “predictors” weren’t nobodies either. I still don’t give them (or anyone else who makes a prediction, no matter how “big” they are) any credence.
Daniel 12:
? ?????????, ???? ??????????: ????-???????? ?????????? ???????????, ???-??? ???. ? ???????????? ?????????????? ????????????, ???????, ????????????? ?????????, ????? ???????? ????-?????????; ?????????????????, ????????. ?? ??????? ?????? ?????????, ??????? ???????? ??????–??????, ????? ???????? ???????????. ?? ???????? ??????????, ??????????: ????????–?????, ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????????. ?? ????????, ???? ??????; ????????? ????????? ??????????, ????? ?????????.
Perhaps you should warn the poor people of Nepal that you will be sending an earthquake their way because of Rabbi Pinto?
BarryLS1 – Sorry, I don’t put much credence in anyone or anything who says anything about when Moshiach or Techiyas HaMaisim will be here. Other predictions have come and gone. Besides, if you are such a Baki in Nistar, what are you doing here? Better yet, can you give me the Powerball numbers for this weekend? 🙂
The Mods have my E-mail, I don’t want you posting the numbers here and everyone else knowing them also.
Avi K – He has to explain people like Achitofel, Doeg, Achav and Menashe, who all lived in Eretz Yisroel. So nice theory, but No True Scotsman is not exactly an argument (especially when we know during the Bayis Rishon Hashem was Maarich Apav).
Barry – of course one should live in EY. My point is that because EY has special Hashgacha from Hashem, there can be negative developments (CV) if the people there don’t keep the Mitzvos. For the purposes of this topic, it makes it more likely than otherwise (e.g. Alaska) that Hashem would remove Klal Yisroel from our land, Chas V’Shalom.
Everything you said is regarding Nevuot is true, but it is not a done deal, and we shouldn’t treat it as such.
BarryLS1 – because there are many there who engage in actions they are not supposed to do, it makes it more risky the Hashem will remove everyone there via the land spitting them out. It is exactly as the Pasuk says.
Joe:
??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???’ (????? ??) ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???”? ????? ???? ????? ??????
Kesubos 110B
Barry:
????????????? ??????, ???-???????? ?????-???????????, ????? ????????, ?????? ??????????? ????????: ?????????, ???????? ?????? ???????????. ?? ???? ???-????-??????????? ?????, ?????? ????????-??????? ?????? ??????????; ??????????, ???????. ?? ?????-?????? ??????? ???????, ????????????? ??????, ????????? ????? ???-???????, ?????? ??????????.
VaYikra 18:26
You are both wrong.
Seeing that thread, I miss the good old days of the CR 🙁
DY – I looked over shabbos, and the closest that I found was the Sefer Matamim that the ring is for the Shalsheles. I guess until I find it, I’m Chozer.
Thanks,
G@W
DY – I can’t find it either, but remember reading it, and will try to remember to look over Shabbos. I did a search and could only find the concept regarding the ring, not the watch.
P.S. How can something that was Beged Isha change over? 🙂 (for another time)
Gamanit, I believe the chosson watch is an old minhag. A watch for the kallah is generally overkill, IMO.
The minhag is a pocket-watch Davka. Ayin Taamei HaMinhagim.
golfer – You miss the point. If Bill Gates or Rothschild wants to sponsor this guy’s wedding, Kol HaKavod. But if he is asking me for money, and I have a choice to give it to him to buy an apartment, or to my local Yeshiva so that people who can’t pay tuition don’t have to send their children to public school, or Hatzolah, which one should I do? And in a similar vein, if an organization has a choice to collect to pay for fancy weddings for fewer people, minimalistic weddings for more people, or tuition so that children don’t go to public school, which should they do?
Before you decide, realize that if you do give $25 to each guy who comes to your door, you’re not giving $2,000+ to your local Mosdos.
As always, AYLOR.
DY – Fair enough if that is considered the minimum regarding the hall and food.
DaasYochid – “Standard” would depend on the time and place; I don’t know what it is where I am either. (Does 2 hot dishes @shmorg, cake @Chosson Tisch, 2-5 piece band, bureka, soup, Shnitzel main and fancy cakes for dessert for 300-350 people sound about right?) That can be decided by whatever group of people is in charge of the Hach’nassas Kallah fund.
rkefrat – I am unaware of any Yeshiva in America outside of Lakewood that has such preconditions. From your name, EY (efrat) is a whole different ballgame (Kadur Regel?)
Gamanit – I’ll grant you that is certainly possible (like an upper west side 1 bedroom, or someone I know who has 9 children in a Junior 4). Those are certainly outliers though, and perhaps they can (and should) do without a Vort (which does nothing) and sponsor (or part sponsor) the weekly Kiddush in Shul instead, which is how many in my community do it.
Most of the friends who did this in a hall did so because they cannot afford a home large enough to host more than a handful of people at a time.
That is exactly the type of Vort that I am discussing, in a 16 foot semi-attached. Yes it is crowded, and people have to leave so that others can come in. If there is a will there is a way.
Avram in MD – I think you are being optimistic, especially with the Yeshiva culture demanding more and more at the time of the wedding, the trend will be larger and more expensive. That being said, I can’t be certain that you are incorrect.
Edit: gavra, vorts can be anywhere from “extended l’chaim” to hall with hot food and music +. To play a slight devils advocate, a vort at home is not always feasible depending on setup, timing etc.
Next thing you will tell me is that Shiva “at home is not always feasible depending on setup, timing etc”. There is no reason to make a Vort whatsoever, let alone spend money on it.
DaasYochid – We might be in a similar place:
1: Standards are way too high
2: That being the case, we still need to raise money as not to embarrass a Chasan and Kallah from having the minimum.
3: What the minimum is depends on location, but it is significantly less than what is “standard”.
4: The Minimum is still too high, but that is for a different time, not for the Chasson in front of us.
5: There should be controls in place that if one is taking communal funds, that they not be frivolously going above the minimum without a real need as judged by outsiders (not the families)
6: This (except possibly for Yesomos) does not affect the Halachos of Kedimah, where Pikuach Nefesh, Pidyon Shevoyim, or Yeshivos have priority.
P.S. Have Vorts moved outside the home so that they became a large expense? Almost every vort I attended for family (except on Succos where they needed a larger space), even in Brooklyn were in the girl’s dining & living room.
Joe, you didn’t see the Rambam I brought just for you? Also, do you agree with me regarding Halachos of Kedimah?
DaasYochid – Ain Lo Elah Mekomo V’Shayto. I don’t know what would be “minimalistic” in your community. A piece of chicken (which is cheaper than Salami), some veggies on the side, and a starter of soup in a Shul or Yeshiva (that can be dressed up for the occasion) and a Yeshiva guy playing on his keyboard (or canned on borrowed speakers) would qualify as “minimalistic” where I am, where you are it may be more (or less), I don’t know.
kapusta – Talaisim are cheap (less than $50 on worldofjudaica.com). Besides, it is for a mitzva, vs. a Rock.
Mammele – if the child hasn’t seen it coming, then that means they still have. If he has seen it coming (e.g., there are no Shabbos seudos at home because they eat at kiddushim, there is no heat in the house, rain and mice are running through the home and it is in forclosure due to non-payment of property taxes), then it is expected (or he could get a Job and be responsible for himself, Chas V’Shalom). Besides, you should pay the electric bill and taxes before buying the Kallah a Rock (AYLOR). The slap is only if it is a shock, and then yes, Dei Machsaro applies (as he had more).
Your use of an extreme does not help your case.
Rambam Matnos Aniyim 7:2. Note the last line.
??? ?? ???? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??–?? ??? ?? ????, ????? ????; ??? ?? ??? ???, ????? ?? ??? ???; ??? ?? ????, ?????? ?? ????; ??? ????? ????, ?????? ???? ????: ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?????, ????? ???? ??????–????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ????? “?? ??????, ??? ???? ??” (????? ??,?); ?????? ??? ?????? ??????, ???? ??? ????? ?????.
I would hope, when approached with a situation where one or both sides can’t afford to make a chasunah according to basic community minimum standards, will recognize it as a perfectly valid form of hachnosas kallah.
If:
1: Minimum community standards are minimalistic, and
2: There is oversight (both by Rabbonim and lay leaders) that the family is not using Tzedakah funds to go over that standard, either directly or indirectly
3: The standards are holistic, and cover things like apartment, jewelery, gowns/suits, furniture, etc., not just the actual wedding.
Then I would vote for not only valid (one can argue the Custom Shaitel is valid), but also appropriate. (it does not change the Halachos of Kedimah, though).
Mammele – living “integrated” does not mean that the poor should spend like the rich, and certainly not that the poor should take Tzedakah to live like the rich. So I’m not understanding your point.
When we don’t look too closely at who’s asking we hope that Hashem will provide for us likewise even if we may be undeserving.
Nice concept, but that is not a Jewish one. From the Gemorah BB 9b:
? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? (?????? ??) ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? [?????] ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???
Another one from the Rambam, also the Gemorah BB 7a:
??? ???? ?????? ????, ???? ??? ???, ????????–??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???, ??? ??????? ???? ???. ??? ????, ???? ?????–?????? ????? ??? ???? ???; ??? ??? ?????? ????–????? ???? ??? ????? ???, ???? ?????? ?????.
Avram in MD – I’ll agree with your fallacy point, but you should recognize that any of your points will not make a dent into the problem. Perhaps there is a middle ground, see below.
I’ll also re-direct you to my recent post which discussed your (valid) concerns. I’ll also point you to “Rebbe Yid”‘s post which already deals with your proposed distinction.