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Last, it is very nice of you to deny me stating my feelings in a comment section. Yet you have the temerity to call MY comment gratuitous?
You have no idea if I daven in an Agudah or OO shul. Sorry, you can feel how you want, but not make assumptions about me (who as far as you know, attends Mass every week religiously).
I’m bringing up a Fedora because of the claim that it is the “Mesorah” to wear one, over other types of hats that Jews wore over the ages (yes, including those that the Goyim made us wear). How would you feel if someone wore either a:
1: Cowboy hat
2: Pork pie hat
3: Football helmet
4: Baseball cap
5: Beanie
6: Skullcap
7: Skicap
8: Homburg
to davening? (All of which are “hats”)? Would you think all of those to be “respectful”? Or is your “thinking” originating from your Yeshiva?
P.S. Who says I don’t wear a Fedora?
P.P.S. My real issue with a Fedora? Is that people claim it is Halacha. If you want to treat it as a social construct that identifies the group, similar to a Spodik, Kol HaKavod. If you want to claim it is Shulchan Aruch (or Mishnah Berurah, or even a minhag of Yidden), then I’ll fight you tooth and nail.
About the hat being ??? ???, GAW is just repeating Charlie Hall’s oft mentioned nonsense.
Once again, someone is co-inflating the Fedora (Sarah Bernhardt) and a hat (such as a Homburg or baseball cap).
I said FEDORA. If you want to wear a pilleus cornutus or a Yarmulka to davening then Kol HaKavod.
I think it is respectful for a man going to shul to wear a hat.
Is there any logic, or is it just a “feeling”, like your gratuitous and condescending insults?
Getting back to Alexander Hamilton, the founders of this country founded this great nation in order that people be free of religious discrimination. It is wrong for members of the media to poke fun of others because that is how they understand and translate their holy texts.
Also, as others pointed out (and I did a bit too cynically yesterday), in London they have been dealing with this for over 50 years. If it is not a problem for them it will not be a problem in the USA.
Dr. Hall:
The lack of a Central Bank made it impossible to fight the long, damaging recession.
Very debatable. I assume you are not an Austrian 🙂
I don’t know if a central bank would have helped, either. There seems to have been (and I am in no way an expert) bigger issues, such as rising interest rates, the Specie Circular (why would anyone be allowed to use wildcat notes in the first place in beyond me), and the unwillingness of Van Buren to lend to banks without the use of specie (which doesn’t need a National bank, just National Bank Notes and the acceptance of US bonds, similar to the National Banking Act of 1863).
I do believe that it is too much of a tangent for this thread.
I don’t know where you get the idea that a hat is a begged isha. Until JFK decided to appear at his inauguration without a hat, that was what everyone wore.
I said Fedora. If you want to wear a pilleus cornutus or a Yarmulka to davening then Kol HaKavod.
I certainly agree with you that people do not dress with Kavod for davening, such as those who wear tee shirts (with a hat and jacket), and they should dress like they are “Omed Lifnei HaMelech”. I support your outrage.
hakohen53 – If you would like to argue that davening requires a Jacket & Tie (no fedora), then you might have legs to stand on. Is that your point? That everyone should be wearing a button-down shirt, tie and Jacket for davening?
Besides, how old is the Mesorah to wear the Beged Isha called a Fedora?
Someone who used to present himself properly for his audience with ??? ???? ??????,
Unwarranted assumption. Please prove the assumption before continuing with your conclusion.
🙂
When a fox is in the bottle where the tweetle beetles battle
with their paddles in a puddle on a noodle-eating poodle,
THIS is what they call…
…a tweetle beetle noodle poodle bottled paddled
muddled duddled fuddled wuddled fox in socks, sir!
He is arguably the worst President ever.
1: James Buchanan (AKA Nero)
2: Jimmy Carter
Jackson is also the only president who ever had the USA at a surplus, not owing any money at all.
A woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
That’s the spirit! Now Let’s have a little talk about tweetle beetles….
When tweetle beetles fight,
it’s called a tweetle beetle battle.
The Wolf (who has never been represented on US currency).
Didn’t they have your picture on the Canadian 1967 half? Once you are used for one country, it would be inappropriate to use you for another.
People who deserve to be on US Currency:
Edward Everett ($50 1878 & 1891)
Michael Hillegas ($10 1907)
James Madison ($5000 1878)
Not the tried and failed:
Susan B. Anthony ($1 coin, 1979)
If there were to be a woman on our currency, might I suggest the 1916 quarter as a template? Very appropriate for the state of American Culture. 🙁
Woodchucks can chuck wood.
Sorry Joe, that is not what happened. From Jpost:
In a letter sent out last week, the leading rabbis of the Belz community declared that female drivers fly in the face of “the traditional rules of modesty” expected in the hassidic camp. The letter also stated that beginning in August, children who are driven to school by their mothers may be banned from academic institutions.
The letter claimed that as more mothers begin to drive their children to school, there has been an increase in “resentment among parents of pupils of our institutions.”
If you read the letter, it says that this is a “new” Takanah.
Joe: So why the need for the big announcement? If this is already in place, then there would have been no mention of it.
They didn’t choose to put this story in the news.
No, Belz did something newsworthy by making a new Taliban-type rule. Had it been in place since the model T (or even 20 years ago), no one would have cared.
apy – agreed, but why do practice they adopt for themselves have to end up in all of our newsstories?
1: They are new. Had they been doing this for hundreds of years, if would not be newsworthy.
2: Man bits Dog
3: Comparisons of Ultra-Orthodox to Muslims/Taliban/ISIS.
lev tahor and other burka women
Moving the goalposts? Who said anything about “other burka women”?
Joseph – Did He say it Ex Cathedra while wearing the Annulus Piscatoris (and sealing it with such)? If not then you know it doesn’t count.
🙂
This is the first I am hearing of this, but if true, do you believe that driving in stressful situations does not cause anger or worse, people to say things they later regret? Nivul peh does not only mean words such as #^&^%$% and (!**#&#.
It was stated by the OP.
GAW: But they are claiming that this is Halachah, not social construct.
No, Joseph claimed it was Halacha. He is wrong.
The “Neshei Belz” said that it is to avoid possible situations of Kaas and Nivul Peh. There is certainly no halachic basis for making up out of thin air such a middos-type action, but if they find that to be socially appealing to their sub-sect, who am I to complain?
APY: Social constructs can create positive results, such as Achdus. It just isn’t Halacha.
The idea of Gedarim is supposedly to prevent people from straying
This is NOT a geder. This is a social construct unrelated to Halacha.
apushatayid: What about a group like the Taliban? They make all their woman and daughters wear burkas, a clear abuse and distortion of Shariah? Should we not protest?
The answer is that we disassociate ourselves from them, not protest. They are just like the Taliban, the Peoples Temple, Raelism, or any other cult, so they have nothing to do with us.
Granted the line is not always clear, but Belz is on our side, and Helbrans is without question on the other.
ZD: You are not going to be able to confront and push back everyone’s crazy minhag. They, once again, will have to answer to God. You have to teach your children (and even those here) that it is not what God wants from us, but rather what a few people decided to do, and it is not related to Judaism (just like a Spodik).
Today is a Minhag, tomorrow it becomes “Halacha” and reason not to give people Aliyot and other things and children banned from schools etc
People are banned today for minhagim such as wearing a spodik vs. a Straimel. You have the choice not to attend those minyanim.
I have a friend who once was thrown out of a (regular shul) minyan because he didn’t have a Hat & Jacket for davening. The people who make those rules will have to answer to God, not you.
Please explain why this isnt an option. This has absolutely no bearing on your life and quite frankly the hanhagos this community accepts upon itself is none of your business. It becomes your business when they make the claims that this is the accepted practice among those jews who follow the shulchan aruch, and those who dont adopt this practice are in violation of the shulchan aruch. They have not made such a claim, so, it is none of anyones business.
+1!
I do think amira l’akum is an issue; it’s assur to ride a b’heima on Shabbos.
I believe it could be argued that the jockey would be “Adayta D’Nafshei”, as the jockey wants to win the race.
The prize money includes all of the pre-race work needed to enter, so that would be Havla’ah.
Question: With the advent of Google’s Driverless cars, would a woman be allowed to “tell it” where to go, but not engage in the act of driving?
Similarly, if a woman was hired to be a chauffeur, would that be allowed for Parnassah as she is not driving for herself?
DaasYochid –
1: Now that we have agreed that there are legitimate opinions on both sides, what would prompt a sub sect of Chassidus (or any other group) to all of the sudden change their minds regarding whom they want to follow?
2: From the OP’s quote, the reason they bring is not from the “Penimah” aspect, but rather the “Bas Melech” aspect. I think many would be more open to accepting their refinement (even though the Queen is known to drive on occasion) over their submissiveness.
This is what Belz chose for their community. You don’t like it, join the less strict Belzers, they exist. This is what the community wants.
I have no issue with this, as it treats women driving similar to wearing a Spodik.
gavra: There’s a tradeoff that needs to be evaluated. Ideally, indeed, women should not be working outside of the home. (Stay-at-home-moms is in fact more common amongst chasidim.) But oftentimes there’s unfortunately no choice but to have a second income or for the wife to bring home the groceries.
Sometimes a b’dieved is a necessity.
Very good. So you will admit that a blanket statement such as “no woman should drive” is really Quixotic, just like “every person should be learning Torah 24/7”. Certainly not something that is meant to be put into practice, even as a general rule.
By placing a restriction on driving it accomplishes a limitation. The other items you wonder why aren’t restricted, would almost make it into a ban on necessary and permissible travel.
Similar to driving, the prohibition should be a blanket one, with specific exceptions allowed for what is absolutely necessary (and then only with additional gedarim, such as Burkas).
Joseph:
If a woman is a licensed driver and has a car at her immediate disposal to fly off to wherever she wants, there is no question that she will be spending much more time outside of the home than she would be spending outside of the home if she is not a licensed driver.
With that sort of logic, the Gedolim would be telling us that women shouldn’t vote, work, or go shopping, and the husband should be Mechuyav to do all these things for his wife.
Thoughts?
Are you also unsure that murder is immoral?
I’m unsure, and I’ll bring my usual example of Maria Schicklgruber.
both/neither considered to have a din of Rodef
Neither.
I’m not sure where you get that from the language of the Kesef Mishna (or the Gemorah in Sanhedrin), would you mind elaborating? If ????? ?? ???? ??, why is the fetus Nogaiah to the din of Rodef at all?
Avram: Rashi in Sanhedrin 72B (which DY point me to) explicitly says (D”H Yatza) that the fetus is not considered a “Nefesh”, and is therefore a Rodef.
I’ll try to look into the Sugyah more over Shabbos, as I will admit I do not have a clear Havanah in the Gemorah’s answer of ????? ?? ???? ??.