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mentsch1 – Statements with no proof, and no S’varah why the Chiluk is Mechalek. I will assume that you have none.
Just a few examples……
many things people say are Halchas are actually Chumras or hashkafas
For example? – 4 inches below the knee, no woman’s pictures, a black fedora for davening
And vice versa.
For example? – Paying tuition, not cheating the government, Z’manim for davening and Krias Shema, Negiah, Hilchos Tzedaka
mentsch1 – The Mishnayos in Shkalim discuss how the Kupos in the Bais HaMikdash had Greek writing so that people should understand what they are for.
????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????, ?????? ?? ?????. ????? ????? ??? ??? ????; ??? ?????? ????, ????? ??? ???? ?????, ???? ???? ???.
The “Zugos” at the time of the Chashmonaim had Greek names.
Unless you can print a specific source here, that means that Jewish “culture” at that time was influenced by the surrounding society.
Megillas Antiochus explicitly states that the reason for the rebellion was that the Syrian-Greeks did not allow the Jews to keep Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh and Bris Milah.
Besides, it is Mefurash a Rebbe Hill!!
“basic necessities plus tuition”
A Yeshiva education is a necessity.
Most choose to rely on others’ Tzedaka for their own Chinuch HaBanim (and other tuition costs :).
AviK
as far as I’m concerned, Torah IM derech eretz means nothing more than being a shtark baal habus. Ner Yisroel allowed me to become a professional while learning. But the philosophy was not tolerant of becoming “cultural”, it was a yeshivish atmosphere. The dorms looked like any other yeshiva.
Ner Yisroel is Modern Orthodox, or YU is Charaidi. Take your pick.
Rebyid
Do you really think that the Maccabees were fighting only jews who worshiped zeus? Thats ridiculous. It was a fight against a blending of cultures. And If your honest, you would agree that many in the MO world are trying to do just that.
Source?
Who does Rav Moshe apply the term “Yeraim” to?
Yirei Shomayim.
Joseph, zahavasdad – Thanks. I don’t see it on Google Maps (I did see Gil Hodges school), but will take your word for it.
American chareidim are closer (in many senses) to Israeli chareidim than they are to DL/RZ/MO.
Depends on who and how. But in EY, they would not be called Charaidim.
In many ways, the use of the term in America was intentional to make people here identify with Charaidim in EY (a cynic would say so that we would give them more money, as they are our “type”).
Rav Moshe used the term “Yeraim”, which is probably more accurate than “Quaker”.
excuse ,but don’t make it sound so simple. The major OO clergy are koifer torah min hashomayim. they say Holy Torah is multi-author ,afre lepima, mock the akaida and much more. Some deny the ten plagues. Say was natural phenominom (why don’t they just deny it happened?)Also the womens issue…igros moshe ztvkl, who you bandi about when it suits you, says its kefira .Igros moshe ohr chaim vol 4 simen 49
Unfortunately, you have just proved the need for secular education in the Charaidi world. You will not convince anyone with an argument written as such.
Boruch Hashem, in America, Charaidi has a much broader tent, to the point where Rav Shechter of YU is considered a “Charaidi”. People say that I’m a Charaidi as well! (I’m a Quaker).
If Charaidi in America were defined as it is in Israel (no working men allowed, Kosher Phones exclusively, etc.) you would see the percentages plummet.
Just drive down Bedford Ave Area
I’ve been to Bedford Ave. in Brooklyn for a Chassunah and don’t remember seeing anything like that. Mostly small apartment buildings, IIRC.
I would like to know how you can force people to stop spending money on vacations that you deem execessive to give the money to yeshivas?
No one will force anyone. Once the schools send out notices that they are closing, people will prioritize spending (in exchange for control of the school from the principal), and the school will not close.
nishtdayngesheft – I agree with you that the Yeshivos will not falter. Worst case, we will have to redirect some of the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on cruises, weekends and Pesach in China towards Yeshivos, and it will be done.
I’m much more concerned how the mindset of being takers has affected and will continue to affect our society as a whole.
We see what has happened to other societies when they became permanent takers.
Already, the need to cozy up to politicians who disagree with our core beliefs for the sake of money has corrupted us as a people.
Already, the need for support and the brainwashing of girls that marrying and long term support of Kollel is their only way to mean anything in life as caused multiple “crises”, as well as a “middos crisis” from the boys.
We are a very different nation than we were 30, and even 20 years ago. I don’t know what we will look like in another 20 years, but I certainly the RBSO brings Moshiach by that time. Even more so, I hope Moshiach is not rejected because he doesn’t hold of the Chumrah of the Month.
End Rant.
DY – wow. At least we are both l’shitasaynu 🙂
I see we have already staked out our positions there.
1 – I don’t see anywhere or anyone mentioning mitzvahs in general, rather a specific few.
2 – you still haven’t answered why an ani shouldn’t buy chicken for shabbos, which is a reasonable expenditure for shabbos.
3 – we all agreed hotzaos are well less than tuition, even l’shitascha.
DY – I’m not arguing the halacha, but it doesn’t answer the questions. The way I see it, halacha does not recognize in a practical sense the gemorah in Baitza quoted.
Who decides what is within reason?
Also, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the gemorah. Even if one is taking Tzedaka, why won’t the RBSO pay reasonable expenses for Shabbos, if that is really truely outside the cheshbon?
“Imagine a person who has sincere love of Hashem and cries when he Davens, – exactly what the Torah wants from us. Would such a person be part of modern orthodoxy?”
Because he sees no reason to wear a black hat or remove women from pictures, so he has to default to MO.
DY – exactly. Just like the bottle isn’t covered, who says teacher costs over the bare minimum is covered? Don’t Chazal say “ase Shabbatcha chol val yitztarech l’briyos”, implying that any costs above “chol” are not covered by the RBSO?
DY – Maybe.
Also if you really hold like this L’maase, the amount of Hotzah should be set as a minimum tuition for all male children, since when the parents pay it the RBSO will pay them back and they don’t lose out.
That being said, we see time and time again how slogans are employed, but when push comes to shove no one is willing to put it into practice (for example, HaKatan’s Zionists).
P.S. By “ha’adafah” I meant in the Mezonos sense, as in anything over the bare minimum needed to run the school.
but building and staff costs are necessary to facilitate Torah learning
Efshar in an existing school, and even without that there is Hadaffah. Ask a shailah.
You make the assumption that tuition = ?????? ???? ?????? ????. It does not.
Why not?
Because tuition covers so much more than the pure cost of teaching your male child Torah. If I were willing to guesstimate, Hotzah is equal (at most) to the Rebbe’s salary divided by the number of children, not the cost of the building, overhead and staff, parnassah studies, and certainly not girls.
So 25 children, 50K salary = 2K for Hotzah at best.
tuition like shabbos food is exempt from your cheshban allocated on Rosh hashana so this is what the Aybishter wants from you, does the yeshiva have a kollel?
Mekor?
its a gammara in ???? ?? on the top
?? ???????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?”? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??
You make the assumption that tuition = ?????? ???? ?????? ????. It does not.
Joseph – The argument (with which I disagree) is that the parents who actually thought their children would be kicked out would go around collecting for their children to stay in school, or work harder to squeeze more out of what they have, by taking a second job or having the wife work, for example.
Who suffers as a result of its rarity?
Rabbaim and Morohs who don’t get paid on time. Then again, they are the ones who would tell you not to kick out the child.
Modern Orthodoxy = Chassidus
Thanks everyone.
As one of the big complaints is the out of district special ed costs, why not set up an arbitration panel to handle all requests. One member from the Five Towns district (which would be Yeraim, but get along with neighbors), one from East Ramapo, and one being the monitor. Each side would have to fully discuss, and then document the decision. This would help the argument against the state that special ed children should be placed in expensive Yeshivos.
Also, the district should cap payment to the Yeshivos at what they would otherwise pay internally, for example by obtaining figures from surrounding districts. That would counter the argument that paying external Yeshivos waste funds.
These are all bandaids, though. Until the private school community agrees to increase taxes to pay for increases in services to themselves (because they think taxes go to public schools, but the increases needed are due to the private school sector), nothing will be solved.
An austerity budget means that the mandated items, which includes busing, remains in the budget. And services continue to be provided. You are wrong.
Not taking sides, but what happens when there aren’t enough funds for all mandated services?
Why are you being mean?
Perhaps he agrees with Yisroel Besser and Eitan Kobre of the Mishpacha, who have stated it is a tragedy for anyone to leave learning. According to them, the only reason why you are leaving is because you haven’t put in enough Amailus in your learning and haven’t Davened with enough Kavannah.
“Not all districts are as rich as the 5 times.”
Pun intended? 🙂
Are you saying that Lakewood wants to get busing from the government even though they can’t afford to fund the government that needs to pay for it?
ZD – Once again, taxes are paid by everyone, so there would be no difference between his specific situation and others’ that he specifically is having a difficult time with making it.
There is no way if the voters vote down a tax increase is the state going to pay, other districts will do the same thing, they will all vote down their school budgets and make “others” pay.
Other districts will not “do the same”, as they want the best for their children who go to public school (whether they are public school parents or not). It is only in those areas such as Lakewood and East Ramapo (and for some reason not the Five Towns) that the voters just don’t care to fund the public school system, and not even to fund their own complementary busing (as in Lakewood).
ZD – Taxes aren’t unexpected or uncommon, and would basically be the same anywhere in the States, for all people.
tuition like shabbos food is exempt from your cheshban allocated on Rosh hashana so this is what the Aybishter wants from you, does the yeshiva have a kollel?
Mekor?
DaasYochid – The factors I’m thinking of here are:
1: Have just recently started working, so no cushion / large debt load
2: Huge student loans (200K+)
3: Two cars (plus insurance on both)
4: Major rent (2K+) each month
5: Pays own health insurance.
If even 3 of those are true, this guy is in a bad spot.
If I knew what he did for a living, I might be able to suggest ideas.
ZD – all which would be illegal, especially giving different amounts of representation to different types of people!!
I like my idea better. The state has the responsibility to provide public schooling. As the district seems unable to do so (due to lack of tax funding and no fault of their own), that responsibility should be taken away from the district.
For_real – What are home prices in Brooklyn and what are you paying in rent? Is the issue obtaining a down payment or making mortgage payments? Also, how many years have you been working?
GAW in Lakewood it definitely is a republican mentality.
Hillary clinton was banned from Lakewood by Rav Shneur Kotler ZT”L 30 years ago already
If only Lakewood was the same shittos of 35 years ago! Under the leadership of Rabbi Aaron Kotler, Shlitah, Lakewood has become a taker, not a giver (or neutral).
Ask yourself a simple question: What is the purpose of government?
1: To get what you can out of it, and figure out how to pay later using other people’s money?
2: To provide for necessary “commons” which would otherwise not be provided for, paid by all based on their abilities?
Once we are on crazy ideas…..
1: The state should send all East Ramapo children who go to regular public schools outside the district.
2: They should subtract any school funding provided by the state to pay for out of district costs and busing. All district buildings will be rented out, but held in lien towards those costs.
3: Let the district figure out how to fund itself without state help.
Mammele, fathousewife, ZD, and Joseph, thank you for helping me understand the issues more clearly.
I need to think about it more, but first glance I’m thinking it is a “Republican mentality” vs. “Democrat mentality” issue that is causing the problems in Lakewood and East Ramapo, but not in the Five Towns.
“current NYC school board president, who happens to be white”
The author of this is both a racist and ignoramus. Race has nothing to do with any of this, and NYC does not even have a school board.
Dr. Hall: My point was the same as yours, that race was not relevant to the decision. Start the thread from the top.
As for being an ignoramus regarding NYC school management and funding structures, I plead guilty. Not important or relevant to me.
I’m also curious as to your position regarding the monitor, as well as if you read the report like me or Joseph.
Thanks.
Joseph – since the increased cost to the school district (I would think) is due to additional busing costs for Jewish children, why won’t the community vote for taxes to pay for it?
DY – I apologize, perhaps I’m mixing you up with someone else.
ZD – You answered the question, but only partially (I think). Why did the population there agree to make up the shortfall? Even in Lawrence, I don’t think that they give away money for free. If they do, please give me some addresses!
As a cost saving measure, the Rebbe made a Takana that all Keddushin in his Chassidus has to be done with a Shtar Shein Bo Shave Prutah?
DaasYochid – I’ll let him/her speak for themselves. Color was and is irrelevant, and the sooner we get there, the better.
Since you are familiar with the Five Towns (as you have mentioned before that you are/were in regular contact with Rabbi Bender of Darchei), would you like to explain to the Olam what happened there and why the situation there, although similar to that of Lakewood and East Ramapo, did not cause the same problems?
How different is this then if the governor declared martial law and became Governor for life?
The same way that a person is different than a barn. 🙂
You can argue that the money is a “poison pill”, but the idea would be to have it earmarked exclusively for public schools.
The previous school monitor was a White Jewish Prosecutor who made similar suggestions. Are there no Orthodox experts in these fields?
Does this mean that you agree that you have no reason to believe skin color biased any decisions? If yes, I’ll try to answer your question.
DY 🙂 Thought someone would say that, though normally it would be PBA.
I read the report online. The report only recommends that the monitor have veto power on additional funds provided by the state to address deficiencies in district funding, caused by the voter not passing needed tax increases to maintain the prior level of services. By their recommendation, the monitor would have no authority over any funds normally provided, such as property taxes.
The Monitors recommend that $12 $15 million dollars be granted to the District. This can be implemented in 2016
-2017 with veto power granted to a fiscal monitor or could be phased – in over three years with an initial $4 million investment from the State. The allocation would grow by $4 million per year until the $12 million level is reached. As the District (board and Superintendent)
demonstrates sufficient fiduciary responsibility and restoration of cuts specifically outlined by the Monitors to public school programming, the additional aid would be received. The Governor and the Legislature must provide the Monitors with more time to provide oversight and must
enhance the oversight authority, including veto power, over any new additional funds provided to the District through this mechanism.
(emphasis added)
This is completely different than the Lakewood situation, where the monitor has veto power over all funds.
That being said, to dis-enfranchise voters by forcing one of the board seat in each election to be held by public school parents, although perhaps good policy for the Orthodox community there, is probably illegal.
nishtdayngesheft:
If they are accusing the board of being discriminatory solely by dint of their not being of the same makeup as the majority of public school parents, then they must be held to the same level of appearance of non discrimination.
Big “If”. If that is true, then they are the racists/Anti Semitic. I doubt that is the case, but as I don’t live near there and haven’t seen the report, I await your proof.
Abba_S – Roosevelt NY.
GAW,
It may be a legitimate comment because the complaints falsely alleged that the Board discriminated against Blacks and Latinos. Would it not make send to then use what would be an objective mix?
This IS Racism, that you automatically assume that non-whites will side with non-whites against whites no matter what (or that they have an inherent bias against non-whites?)!
Why do you assume that the color of their skin had any influence in what they decided? I don’t believe the monitor lives in East Ramapo so that would not be a bias.
Joseph – Yes. Hopelessly Liberal. And if that didn’t do it, the NYT front page op-ed on guns certainly did.
In East Ramapo the monitor doesn’t have veto power but the monitor who are all blacks are recommending that the monitor have veto power
What does the color of their skin have anything to do with a School monitor? As far as I am concerned, you have lost all credibility regarding whatever you think, as it is tainted by Racism.
You don’t have to open the door. If they are insistent, say “Osek B’Mitzva Patur Min HaMItzva”. If they still don’t get it, well I guess people do have clueless parents and/or in-laws.
The Catholic Church does not allow women to be priests, so no, a woman feminist can’t be frum.
Frum is a Galach, a Yid is erlich!
Now if you ask “can a woman be an erlich yid”, if the model is Rebbetzen Chava Bachrach, Jungreis, or Liebowitz, then the answer is certainly yes. If the model is Rabbi Sally Priesand or Hillary Rodham, then the answer is certainly no.