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DY – It’s a Scotsman.
It’s a giluy milsa, not a g’zeiras hakasuv.
Rayah? And a real source, not a thought up s’vorah.
This week’s new Government Programs chumra: if you receive Section 8 assistance, you should not mow your lawn or shovel snow from your sidewalks ever, because Heaven forbid a passerby might think you can afford lawn care service and therefore you must have cheated to receive Section 8.
Isn’t section 8 rental assistance? Shouldn’t the landlord be mowing the lawn and shoveling snow?
We can put it to a vote as possible Chumrah of the week, if you would like.
Avi K. FYI comes from a Gemorah Kiddushin, and “talmid” plus “chacham” does not equal “Talmid Chacham”.
The Rambam that I brought before is explicit in a qualification of who is a talmid chacham for the purposes of having your daughter marry him.
???? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ????? ?? ????? ?????
Avram in MD – all good questions, and I’m not going to claim that I know the answers. There is a Gemorah, which learns the concept of money forcibly taken away as the RBSO counting it towards Tzedaka from a Pasuk (not a S’varah or a “why” type consideration). If we really believe this with all of its practical implications (and I’m not saying that we do), then yes, you would have lower (or no) taxes if you gave enough Tzedaka, weren’t an Am HaAretz, etc.
Assuming that having your money taken by force is what makes it count as tzedakah (and I don’t think that applies to U.S. taxes), why would non-Jewish tax dollars going towards a credit for a Jewish family with kids yield any more zchus to the taxpayer than, say, the tax dollars going towards a new warship?
That was my earlier question above. If giving money counts as Tzedaka does being on the receiving side mean you are accepting Tzedaka, or perhaps not. I could hear both ways (i.e. it is reasonable to say that the money is given and done with, and the choice of the middle party to give to specific individuals is their choice and not “giving” Tzedaka to be “accepting” Tzedaka).
So while giving towards government programs Mi’daas or having taxes taken by force of law would be counted as Tzedaka, receiving government programs very well might not be.
there’s no indication that a non Jew’s forced tax payments are considered tzeddakah
Other than that for a Jew they would be, and there is no strong reason to be Mechalek, as there is Tzedaka for non-Jews. Once again, if you have a source (not a Boich S’varah) that is Mechalek, I would be happy to be Chozer. As is, I’m Mesupak myself.
In other words, if paying taxes is like giving tzedaka. Receiving government funds is like taking from the Tamchui.
The question needs to be asked, I’m not certain of the answer. If the answer is no, one does then have to explain if (and perhaps it isn’t) taking a Tomchei Shabbos package is Tzedaka using the same rules, especially if Tomchei Shabbos (or other “Jewish” type programs) is partially subsidized by the government.
Who is ??? referring to?
Better. Certainly the giver.
Now go back to my previous comment.
Thanks, that makes more sense. Opens up a different question, but one that I believe is answered there in Bava Basra. If a Goy gives money that for a Jew would be Tzedaka, and a Jew accepts it, is that considered Tzedaka?
The Gemorah in Bava Basra 10b answers “yes”. Furthermore, the Gemorah there faults Jews for using money given as Tzedaka by non-Jews, and suggests that the money given should be exclusively used for non-Jewish causes.
Once again from Mechon Mamre
????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? (?????? ??) ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????????? ????? <????? ??????> {????} ???? ??? ????? <????? ??????> {????} ???????
We see from here that perhaps (and I’m not a Posek, so will leave it open) it is worse to accept government funds in America, thereby giving the Hamon Am (and the Government) the Zechus, vs. in Eretz Yisroel, where the Zechus goes to Jews. (Unless of course you hold it is way worse to give the Shreklecke Tamei Zionists any Zechusim……)
P.S. I’m Modeh that it is a bit shakier ground as taxes are not explicitly given as Tzedaka. I would argue that Rov people understand some of their money will go towards government programs to help the poor. Furthermore, even if not, the prior gemorah does not say that if the giver is not Jewish, they would not get a similar Zechus. I’m willing to back off that specific point if you have a strong Rayaih from a Rishon or early Achron on the topic.
It is like taking tzedakah, though no one can be credited with giving tzedaka.
Exactly the opposite. It is Pashut that those who give have that money considered as being given to Tzedaka (as per the Gemorah), the question is if those who receive it are receiving Tzedaka.
Who is ??? referring to?
Better. Certainly the giver.
So we have to ask the question (which is relevant on multiple fronts). If someone gives money that is Halachicly considered to be Tzedaka, and someone else takes that money (via a third party middleman), is that considered to be “taking Tzedaka”?
For example, Tomchei Shabbos collects money to distribute food, or the local scholarship fund collects money for children to be able to be in Yeshiva, or the camp fund collects money so children should be able to attend camp, or the Hachnosas Kallah fund collects money so that Kallahs can buy needed items at a significant discount. Is one who accepts/uses these funds considered to be taking Tzedaka? Or are they beneficiaries without being Tzedaka?
lan’d there are talmidei chachamim in this generation. only they don’t advertise. those who know, know.
longarekel vs. Pashut P’shat in the Rambam and Rav Shteinman. I know which side I’d go with.
That being said, I imagine there may be someone like Rav SZA in our generation that no one knows about, so we should start searching!
DY – You may not have read the Gemorah quoted in my post:
??? ??? ???? <????? ??????> {????? ?????} ??????? ????? ????”? ???? ??? ?????
The term (????? ?????? {????? ????? is quite explicit. However, if you have a Rishon that explains like your conjecture, I would be glad to hear it (and how in the world they read the Gemorah).
apushatayid, Abba_S: The (????? ?????? {????? ?????. If you have any questions, you can see the Gemorah with Rishonim (such as the Rabbanu Gershom on the Daf).
Against the Gemorah in Bava Basra 9a:
?”? ????? ???? ????”? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? <????? ??????> {????? ?????} ??????? ????? ????”? ???? ??? ????? ???’ (?????? ?) ??????? ????
Of course, one can argue that we don’t take this Aggaditah literally…… 🙂
Anyway, I think this thread is a pretty good example how we dont take these things literally.
BS”D
Besides, the Rambam has an extreme P’sak of who is considered to be a Talmid Chacham. From Issurei Biah 23:29 (copied from Mechon Mamre):
?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????–??? ?? ?? ???, ???? ??? ???? ????: ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ??? ??? ????–??? ????? ??? ??? ????, ??? ????? ????? ???? ????: ??? ?????, ???? ?? ???? ????. ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??, ????? ?? ????? ?????–??? ?? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?????; ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????–???? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ????? ?? ????? ?????.
The Rambam holds L’Halacha that a Talmid Chacham by definition does not have ??? ????? or ?????. As everyone is aware, Rubah D’rubah of people have fights and/or arguments in their homes (with Gedolim such as Rav Schlomo Zalman Aurbach as the exceptions). Therefore, the Talmid Chacham exclusion for a bas Kohen does not apply.
With this, we can also understand why Chazal and the Rambam hold one should marry a Talmid Chacham exclusively, and why Rav Shteinman holds L’maase there are no Talmidei Chachomim in our generation (that this Halachah would apply).
flowers – Oomis (as a MIL herself) was saying such “tongue in cheek”, hence the smiley face.
MsPrincess – I’ll take bait.
Why is Antonio Vivaldi worse for one’s Neshama than MBD singing “Yidden”, AKA “Goyim”, AKA Genghis Khan? Or even something more neutral, like “Am Echad” by Goldwag?
You missed what I responded: in the yeshiva community, all girls (well, most), even those who want to marry working boys, want to marry young. I think that’s a proper value, so if you want to change it by reducing the number of boys learning thereby allowing secular values to seep in to our community even more than it already has so that girls don’t mind if they don’t get married, I’ll have to disagree with you.
DY, this is so twisted and rant-like I don’t even know where to begin. Makes me think you might’ve gotten hacked, this is atypical of your style.
I’ll just protest by saying this is in no way what I said or meant, and call it a day.
Sure, if you include the chores he needs to do because he can’t afford an at home babysitter.
Being in Kollel is a life of Mistapek B’muat, and an at-home babysitter is a luxury that most can’t afford (even those who work), especially during the early years of a marriage. But if you want to call “full time” 11.5+ hours, I won’t quibble. Besides, who says the wife can’t pick up and drop off, she does everything else! And if the shver pays for the live in, you are Modeh?
Do you agree with the other points?
So there aren’t enough learning boys, and aren’t enough working boys, and it’s kollel’s fault. Kollel makes boys disappear, I guess.
Yes, it eats them alive, and the homicide unit is still looking for them. Perhaps PBA sat on them and they were squashed flat. 🙂
Seriously though, you missed what I said. It is still the girls needing to marry early, NOT the boys wanting to be a member of an institute of Torah learning. If only all the girls wanted to marry kollel but wouldn’t go out until 24-25 like the boys in BMG…… As I said earlier:
Besides, it’s not that they want to marry them, it’s that they put their self-worth into being married to them, and therefore need to be married ASAP. If they were willing to wait 5 years we wouldn’t have the same crisis.
Full-time means the same it would mean for a paying job.
Wouldn’t someone who has a full time job also need to be Koveh Itim? As Rav Moshe is known to have said, before learning in Kollel, you first need to learn like a Baal Habos!
So if the average “Yeraim” Baal HaBos works eight hours (most work more), commute (in the NYC area) two hours, and learn two hours, then shouldn’t full time be 12+ hours?
Advanced refers to a standard of learning which us obviously subjective. Technically, someone enrolled would be in kollel, the same way someone on the books at a company is technically an employee.
So do we need to restate the question as “technical” kollel” vs. actual kollel, as well as only those who are doing at a higher level than a certain agreed-upon standard?
Those are not the kollelim women want their husbands to be in.
But you will agree that they are Kollelim by your definition, and therefore included in the OP’s question (as well as Joe’s follow-up regarding ruchnious?)
I don’t think prospective kollel wives want to get married any significant amount more than girls (from the same community) who want to marry working boys do. There’s plenty of agmas nefesh for these girls.
1: “From the same community” is a huge “No true Scotsman” type exclusion, as Rov of the Yeshivish type girls are looking to marry someone who will at the very least start out as a member of an institute of Torah learning (which may or may not be a “Kollel”).
2: As I explained earlier, if boys who would otherwise be working see strong incentives to be a member of an institute of Torah learning, it leaves fewer boys for girls who want working boys, pushing the issues there as well.
I’ll echo everyone else, and add that even if you can trust yourself, don’t trust the boy. In the heat of the moment, he can convince and pull you in as well.
Ask your trusted adviser or Rav.
DaasYochid – define “full-time” and “advanced”. Also, as long as belong to the “institute” you are “in kollel”?
Oh, I guess if you define the shidduch crisis (nonsensically) as too many girls who want to marry kollel boys, you could say that kollel causes it.
Why any different than those who claim that boys go OTD at a much higher rate than girls?
Besides, it’s not that they want to marry them, it’s that they put their self-worth into being married to them, and therefore need to be married ASAP. If they were willing to wait 5 years we wouldn’t have the same crisis.
DaasYochid – excellent. If you reject my proposed (and rejected) definition of “Kollel”, please define it yourself.
How about Feivel’s implied definition, of those Giborei Chayil who are mistapek B’muat and give up what the norm of their group calls necessities in order to learn Hashem’s Torah for as long as they can with as much Kochos they can put in?
FYI to DY, I believe I’m consistent with my arguments here:
If you want, instead of rehashing everything, you can simply agree that we disagree and Shalom Al Yisroel.
First let someone define the shidduch crisis and state how kollel causes it, then we’ll talk.
As I said earlier, Kollel (as defined by people in their 20s sitting and “learning” (or hanging in the CR, etc.)) does NOT cause the shidduch crisis (as defined by the burning need for many young girls (let’s say ages 19 – 23) to get married, and the consequential large group of older singles). It is the strong desire of girls to marry and ONLY marry the type of boy that will be in “kollel” (as defined) that is theorized to be a strong cause of the shidduch crisis (by any definition). Put it under the “pickier girls” theory.
The outcome of that desire is that when the boys see that girls (or more accurately, the Shvers) are willing to support them, they also realize that it would be stupid of them not to go to “kollel” (as defined) and get a honeymoon with no real responsibilities. For a Bochur, it is like being in Beis Medrash as before but “with benefits”, such as someone to cook meals and a place to impress single bochrim.
So if anything, the shidduch crisis causes Kollel! (a cynic would say this is a planned outcome)
This certainly is speculation, but the theory happens to fit the facts.
Point is, your assertion that there’s some type of correlation between kollel and marriage issues is an invention of your own with no basis in reality.
There is strong correlation. The question is whether it is the pirate to global warming kind (as touted by the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) or something more real, to which I agree that all I have is speculation.
I think it’s a real stretch to say that shidduch and divorce problems are a result of kollel. Do you have any sort of control group to compare to, which is relatively free of these problems?
Kollel is a siman, not the sibah. As I’ve mentioned before, the root problem is the expectation/requirements for seminary in Israel. I’m not going to go through it again, read the prior threads on the topic.
As for a control population, chassidim or pre1990 yeshivos would work.
Sadly I have found far to often that people BELIEVE that Kolel people think of themselves as better. Therefore they resent Kolel people and all they represent.
I also imagine those are the people who I think of as “kollel kids”, not those who are long term, moser nefesh, live with nothing kollel men.
DY – just another instance where support comes into play as a factor. I won’t guess as per Rav Shteinman’s cheshbonos, which I’m certain are valid based on the situation. However, hearing yet another story with the guy looking for support doesn’t help my frustration with the whole shidduch, divorce, dependency, and other issues that I have with our society as it is today.:-(
Also, it shows thr Rav’s Anivus, as opposed to the Amoraim who would respond “like me”!
ubiquitin – thanks for showing my point regarding support. I imagine there are people as feivel describes, who are older and live with nothing to be moser nefesh to learn. They are true heros. They are also not who I see or think of when discussing kollel. More like the kid in this story who wants to marry for support.
Like I said earlier, the question needs to be split before responding.
Joe – I’ll sign up too 🙂
Mod80/feivel – As Reb Yonasan Rosenbloom said recently, 21st century affluence has allowed anyone to learn in kollel.
My addition is then they claim to be “talmidei chachomim” or “best in Lakewood” and demand support. So yes, we have become “modern”, but not “enlightened”.
I don’t think we (or DY) are really disagreeing. My point is that a true talmid chacham IS better. I’ve seen many baal habatim, rabbonim, rebbes and mageidei shuir as talmidei chachomim. Kollel guys, not so much (granted, in town may have a different perspective). And girls go for the kollel guy but miss the prerequisites, so they end up without an oved Hashem (or worse, unmarried, or even worse, divorced).
DY – I would understand the gemorah that the talmid chacham is presumed to be an oved Hashem, just like it is presumed that the talmid chacham is not an apikores. No one would recommend marrying Acher, even though he was a talmid chacham by any definition.
But sure, if you can be certain that you have an oved Hashem, a talmid chacham is a major plus. The problem is finding a real one, which is not so easy. Finally, a guy who insists he wants 10 years kollel and the support to back it up may not be the best place to find one.
Should a girl want to marry a talmid chochom? If a boy wants to devote a number of years to learning, does this give him a better chance than if he doesn’t?
No. A girl should want to marry an oved Hashem. And no, years demanded does not increase either probability of being a talmid chacham or an oved Hashem. In fact, it is probably a Siman of not being so serious.
I don’t understand why some of you are becoming defensive. Ask yourself if you can (usually) recognize a kollel yungerman (one that’s actually learning of course) of at least a few years from someone that is working a while — just by the eidelkeit on his face and his conduct.
I saw a picture of a man with real erlichkeit and hadras ponim, and thought he must be a big tzaddik. Unfortunately, he turned out to be Ayatollah Kohamani.
All kidding aside, how many hours does the person spend on avodas Hashem? If it is every second like Rav Chaim, then he gets the respect he deserves. If it is less than a union work day, then no one will respect him.
Al pi rov though, most people see the baal habos who is koveh ittim as working harder on avodas Hashem than your typical kollel guy, who is there for a few years to get a shidduch and shver supported honeymoon. And yes, the typical kollel guy takes away from the kavod hatorah created by those who are serious and put in 12+ hours every day.
So split the population and ask the question again.
Check out Texas Torah Institute in Dallas.
Second this.
Do you think there is absolutely no correlation between Torah learning and midos and/or ruchniyus (spirituality)?
Anecdotal evidence (from enough sources that it would be somewhat statistically credible) indicates a slight negative correlation between one’s learning (or better, Klei Kodesh involvement) and the Middos of one’s children.
The only places where I think there would be significant correlation for the person themselves is at the tails (the guy learning 12+ hours a day (excluding davening and meals) on a consistent basis, and the guy who is to lazy/”busy” to open a sefer). Everywhere else I would think there is no correlation, but have no statistical evidence.
They gave him an epidural.
That’s because when she got to the hospital, the wife said her last name WAS epidural. They figured they could charge double and gave one to both Mr. and Mrs. Epidural.
The lesson? The wife should keep her last name :p
I am aware that the main reason the battle took place was to kick out the greeks and abolish their edicts.
That said, the main hashkafic reason we have a holiday of chanukah is to commemorate our victory over greek culture. Chanukah is not a celebration of a military victory.
Your word vs. Megilas Antiochus, the Gemorah Shabbos and others. I’ll let the Olam decide.
mentsch1 – In no way do I disagree with you that we should not be embracing American culture. My argument with you is only why the Maccabees fought with the Greeks. I say (and am backed by Megilas Antiochus) that they fought because the Greeks did not allow them to practice their own religion. You argue that they fought to remove all traces of Greek culture from Jewish society (correct me if I’m wrong). My counterargument to you was that Chazal were accepting of a certain level of “Greekness” in Torah Jews, even if they did not promote it. We can also bring in the discussions that various Tannaim had with Greek or Roman thinkers, if you find it relevant.
I didn’t realize that you didn’t understand what I thought we were discussing, and apologize.
The OP is long gone, that’s how the CR works. We go on many tangents 🙂
DY – I think that “Meshaneh Halachos” – changer of halacha is meant to be a joke?
Joseph – Not what the girls schools teach.
Would the holy Chasam Soifer, Igros Moshe, Noda B’Yehuda etc. etc. allow a Baptist minister in the beis medrash?
What does he have against Baptist over Catholics, Buddhists or anyone else? 🙂
No, worse, they are examples of Halachos that are outright ignored.
That wasn’t the question.
Fair for Tzedaka, but after rethinking Zmanim, I would argue that Yeshiva Bochrim who daven at 10:00 really believe that Zman is a Chumrah that they have to keep when in Yeshiva, but if they sleep late, no big deal.
I believe the ridiculousness of that Shittah was proven here.
I disagree.
For a different thread.
Still, we are left with “four inches” from one side, and Negiyah from the other. The difference between the two (as you pointed out earlier) is that many learned people think 4 inches is real Halacha, while Negiyah is more of an “Omer Muttar” type which knowledgeable people are well aware of the Issur.
Anyone else want to add to the list?
ZD – Shloshe Shevuos is a question of application. No one holds they are a Chumrah.
Am I the only one who can’t make out shimen’s last post?
I’ve already given up earlier in the thread, and just don’t bother trying. Like I said earlier after I tried the first time, his posts prove the necessity of teaching English writing classes in school.
Gavra, I don’t think zmanim or tzeddakah are examples of people thinking or saying it’s just a chumra.
No, worse, they are examples of Halachos that are outright ignored.
Point on the black hat. However, it is difficult to reconcile with those who do believe that hat-wearing is Halacha (of which there are many, as we have had here in the CR in the past). I believe the ridiculousness of that Shittah was proven here.
Food we dont have a “Mesorah” to eat, not because of kashruth issues, but because it wasnt eaten in Europe by our ancestors.
Like potatoes and quinoa?
What are their names?
One was Popa Bar Abba, the other had the last name “Yochid”. Strange last name, I’ll admit.
At least she had the sense not to date the already working gavra.
🙂
Negiah is probably unfortunately true for many, I don’t know about zmanim and tzeddakah, can you be more specific?
Zmanim: The unfortunate lack of respect for Zman Tefilah, both from the Chassidim and the 10:00 Shachris crowd during Bein Hazmanim.
Tzeddakah – The much ignored Halachos of Kedimah brought in Shulchan Aruch. Have you (not personally, but the one ignoring the Halacha) ever asked your Rov to which types of organization/person you should be giving the bulk of your funds (instead of Kupat Hair (for curing MPB) or other Tzedakos with glossy ads or huge auctions)?
You can modify to “Fedora or Homburg”.
edited
ZD – agree with DY on this one. Chassidim use mode of dress as a way to separate from others (both halacha following Jews and not), not as a specific “Halacha”.
And I have heard ‘Dvar Torahs” that claim that eating “Goyish Foods” even when kosher Damages your neshama
Source? Besides, what is a Goyish food? Did the priest/Imam make a blessing on it before it was prepared?
any group with the word “movement” is apikorsus: What does ,”movement” mean?
Such as Rav Yisroel Salanter’s “Mussar Movement”?
DY & Joe: I didn’t realize you would be that strict with what is termed “Halacha”. I’ll agree with tuition & cheating, but disagree with the black fedoras. There have been many threads started arguing that black fedoras are absolute Halacha (usually quoting the Mishna Berurah), but when discussion begins with a reasonable individual (such as we have had, DY), the reasonable individual admits that black fedoras are not Halacha. Unreasonable individuals stick to their guns at all costs.
How about the other three (Zmanim, Negiah and Tzedaka)?
There is no Hashkafic evidence that embracing a foreign culture is a good thing,
Straw man. Go back to the original statement, then my question.