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Also, according to the Shulchan Aruch, you are not even supposed to be untznius in the privacy of your home (as in having anything uncovered that is normally covered, meaning even walking around w/o socks if you normally wear socks) so I would think it’s a kal v’chomer to seeing someone else dressed untzniusly (for no purpose). Rav Moshe Feinstein, zatsal says that it’s a midas chassidus. However, it still is something to strive for, each on his/her own level, and it is brought down in the Shulchan Aruch.
SA brings it down for hair and only as a middus Chassidus (Kimchis), not Halacha. That is a din in one’s own body, and has nothing to do with pictures.
I was talking about the idea of seeing anything that can fall under the category of pritzus/tumah
Like a Sheretz. Got it. No pet toads for you 🙂
Different people may categorize pritzus differently according to their levels of sensitivity, so exactly what falls under that category may be subjective, and some people’s sensitivities can sound extreme to others who may be on a different level of sensitivity.
You’ve just admitted that it isn’t Halacha, as Halacha doesn’t change based on “sensitivity”.
Although I will admit, if those types of catalogs make you think thoughts that are not Kaddosh (i.e. Hirrhurim), then YOU should stay away from them. No different than any other “trigger” that causes hirrhurim that one should avoid, whether that trigger is specifically brought down in Halacha or not.
I was responding to what I thought you were saying that there’s no m’kor to asser women gazing at men for pleasure. There is.
Fair enough. I agree with you there is such a Mekor, it is the Pasuk of “Lo Sasuru”.
I was responding to Sparkly and LuL regarding their concern of looking at non-Tznius women. To quote LuL, who is obviously discussing women:
1. I try to live in communities where people dress tzniusly.
2. When I lived in the US, I tried to avoid goyish stores/businesses.
3.In the US, I almost always used the ATM at the bank instead of going inside and dealing with the tellers, since the tellers in my bank didn’t dress tzniusly. I actually found out recently that there is another bank which requires its workers to wear uniforms, so there are Frum people who switched to that bank, I think.
4. When I lived on my own, I deliberately didn’t get Internet at home, even though I needed to use it on a regular basis. I went to Cubicles (a Frum Internet place) instead.
5. I tried to avoid the Public Library, but if I had to use it, I trained myself to turn my eyes so that I could avoid looking at the magazine racks when I walked in.
6. When I’m out, if I see there are people around who aren’t dressed or acting tzniusly, I try to avoid looking at them, and I try to avoid walking behind or near them (I cross the street or walk ahead of them).
7. Now when I’m living in someone’s house who has a lot of inappropriate books and photographs around. I try to avoid reading or looking at any of them.
8. I spend time in the CR rather than going to other sites that could be more problematic :).
9. When I was in the US, I went out of my way to avoid goyish transportation.
10. I got adblocker for the computer that I use. I still have to find out more about filters, and find out if I can get a filter just for my account (since it’s not my computer).
11. If I am looking something up on online, and something inappropriate comes up, I try to either log off of the site right away or cover up the part that’s a problem.
12. I try to stick to sites that I already know are okay and not to just google things or “surf the web”. Obviously, I still need to work on that, hence #11.
13. When I was teaching reading, I went through all the books and colored in the untznius pictures (I had a lot of fun coloring in black shells, etc. 🙂 )
DY – Explain?
The issue is with women looking at men, not women looking at women.
Check that with Sparkly and LuL, both of them who were discussing women not dressing Tznius.
I’m not getting why a ???? ????? would be underwhelming to you, when it’s quited by rishonim.
It isn’t a Halacha Sefer. Besides, it would not be a Chiddush that there is an Issur of Histaklus for women with the specific intent of causing Hirhurim. Even without the obvious male-oriented issur, there could still be the Lav of “Lo Sasuru”.
Just because one way in which the ???? ????? applies it doesn’t seem to be accepted (I agree), doesn’t take away from my point that it is accepted as a halachic source.
By whom? You could also be quoting me Satmar on mandated Denier of stockings.
Obviously in this instance he is not accepted by anyone in Klal Yisroel. That, and the fact that it seems to be unsourced, makes it “underwhelming”.
DY – A “Medrash Shmuel” and “Mishne Halachos” is extremely underwhelming. I was hoping for a Tur, Rabbanu Yona or Shaagas Aryeh (or similar).
Let’s take a different tact, because I’m not sure we really disagree (as the “Medrash Shmuel” is the exception that I previously mentioned): Are women allowed to go swimming with other women, even though their knees are uncovered? How about a woman’s only drama where there is Kol Isha? Both of these are “not Tznius” and would be Assur for a male.
How about women listening to male singers? Is “Kol Ish” assur for a woman? The “Mishna Halachos” claims yes (and his source is what?). Puk Chazi that Klal Yisroel has no issue with it.
I have heard both Rav Shimshon Pincus zatsal & Rav Matisyahu Salomon shlita, yibadel l’chaim quoted as saying that it is more important for women than for men since the woman is the mainstay of the home, and whatever she is exposed to affects the entire home.
They are both more than welcome to say whatever they want. Unless they have a source (?), I believe they only said so in order that women should not think they can do whatever they want from a Hashkafic standpoint, since “Al Pi Halacha” the Issurim are very limited.
Without an actual source showing me where the Issur D’Oraysa is (as exists for men), I don’t buy it. If you can bring an actual source in Rishonim, I’m certainly willing to be Chozer.
It goes back to the “four types of Tznius” post. A woman can say Kriyas Shema in front of anything except Oso Makom itself, and even then if a woman is sitting it is muttar. As these are all not “Erva” for a woman, there is no reason to think that any of the other issues apply.
Sparkly – Lucky for you, Shmiras Einayim is mostly a male concept. Unless you’ve gone really far (Hamavin Yavin), you asa girl would not have been over anything.
1: Be a “Shafel Ruach”.
2: Histaklus isn’t seeing, it is staring the second time. Don’t look again.
3: You know there are places and things you need to avoid, then do so. Lo Lidei Nisayon.
4: Beware the power of the Dark Side, but don’t obsess. If you think about not seeing pink elephants you will see pink elephants everywhere. Even if there are people not dressed appropriately doesn’t mean you have to notice that aspect and think about it.
1: Tavyomi
2: Plimu
3: Chanan Bisha
I’m a role model to Joseph, who wishes and strives to be a Gavra at Work.
Irrelevant and narischkeit. We are talking about people who choose to learn full time after marriage. 27 is about 5-6 years after marriage, long before any major financial burdens set in. Kollel yungerleit in Israel aren’t poverty stricken because they can’t work until 27, they’re poverty stricken because they choose not to work even after 27.
In all fairness to Joe, you need to take into account the age that these children get married. If in Israel the child gets married at 17-18, by the time 27 rolls around the child may already have 8-9 children themselves.
It is very similar to the inner city culture and how those who are teenage mothers have no ability to pull themselves out of poverty, even if they do “work”. Same here with teenage fathers who have no skills. By the time 27 hits it is too late to start learning what they need to get a job. Easier to stay in Kollel and ask others for help.
There is no Rechner in Israel. those people live in the US
There are plenty of Gevirim in Eretz Yisroel, but they will tell the Meshulach to get a job, and that the Gevir refuses to pay for his daughter’s apartment even if she can’t get married without it.
Or the Gevir has better things to spend money on. For example, the Rebbes of Belz and Gur are major landowners and extremely wealthy, but spend it on their Chassidus and save for the next generation, not the little guy.
DaasYochid – Amazing how we’ve had the same arguments with the same Tzdaddim all this time. I’m even surprised how consistent I am with what I said in a long forgotten discussion four years ago.
LU, I was in Manhattan recently and I couldn’t believe the number of people crossing streets, walking on stairs while staring at phones tablets.
I think Manhattan has a more pressurized lifestyle than most of us are used to, and those people feel the need to be “on the clock” every waking minute. I imagine most areas (perhaps London & Tokyo are similar) are not like that.
Yes, we all agree that there are those who don’t belong in Kollel.
Just curious, what data do you have that shows the percentage that “doesn’t belong” (and that needs to be defined) is a minority?
Just from my own observations in America (and therefore anecdotal, not data). EY is a whole different ballgame, and differs betwen Charaidim and Dati Leumi (including Chardal):
Most Kollel bochrim for the first 5 years are there for the ride. They are getting support and are better off learning with support than leaving without it, and expenses are low.
After about 5 years they get serious or start leaving.
The Men who are still in Kollel when they need to marry off their children are Ruba D’Ruba very serious about their learning.
What makes them feel inferior is not just the lifestyle, but partly a sociaty that’s determined to look down at them, for reasos that are everything except yiras shomaim.
Disagree completely. The society makes those who leave learning feel inferior because some edited, sorry want to pressure people to stay in learning long after they would have left on their own. Whether is is for good or evil I will let you decide.
If you want your wife to make potato kugel for you when you’re married, you should start out by opening doors for her when you’re dating. It might make her more inclined to want to make potato kugel for you.
Potato Kugel is Awesome. I’ll even try singing the “Who is He” song if Country Yossi offers me an extra piece of Potato Kugel.
I was wondering about this too. Joseph, how do you walk down the street? Do you ask all women to step aside so as not to walk behind them? How do you board a plane, insist that you board before all women?
1: Close your eyes, look down, up or away. You can’t do that when interacting with someone, but can in your situations.
2: Shulchan Aruch (IIRC) says the agreed distance is four amos.
??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???
APY:
??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? (?????? ??) ???? ???? ???? ????
???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? (????? ? ?) ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? (?????? ??) ???? ???? ???????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? <???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???> ????? ??? ????? ???? ????????
Eruvin 18B (Joe pointed it out earlier).
Joe:
???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??????
Keddushin 2B. Al Kein, the man has to convince the woman to marry him by being nice to her (such as holding the door and buying flowers), not vice versa.
But, if you are going to be poor, it is definitely MUCH more geshmak to be poor in Eretz Yisrael where there is so much more ruchnius, so you don’t need the gashmius as much!!!
Hear hear.
lilmod ulelamaid – If you didn’t want a discussion you shouldn’t have gotten involved in the topic.
I think your wife has the wrong friends, Yserbius. That is very atypical of the vast majority of Kollel families. That is also what is probably leading you to reach the mistaken conclusions on the things that you say “What I also find”.
I have to agree with Joe, although I find the same to be true with many Kollel “couples” (vs. families) It is the real long term learners, who have to marry off children while still in Kollel and can’t because they can’t support a son in-law, that are seriously sacrificing for learning.
And I agree with lilmod ulelamaid that many families in Lakewood are still like that. Unfortunately, it no longer defines the city, and the city is not viewed as a city of those who are Mistapek B’Muat.
You can still see it in Eretz Yisrael today.
True, although easier when everyone else around you also has nothing.
Gra: Torah comes from the poor – not the rich
What do I need the GRA for, it is Offen a Gemorah Nedarim 81A:
????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? (????? ??) ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????
Joseph, I think that your short, to-the-point post answers the entire issue much more than anything else that has been posted until now!
And obviously I still don’t understand what you are trying to get at 🙂
Would the average Frum boy be “over” (transgress) on histaklus (or at least find it difficult not to be) if a Frum tzniusly dressed girl were to walk in front of him?
I have no idea, but it shouldn’t change your actions. The boy the the one who is mechuyav not to stare, you are not. I would hope that most religious Jews would turn aside or look down and not stare.
Regardless of whether or not it is muttar, no lady with any sense of tznius/self-respect will deliberately put herself in such a situation if it is avoidable
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe she doesn’t expect her neighbor to look out the window at her swimming pool with his binoculars. She’s not changing what she wants to and can do al pi Halacha just because of some peeping tom.
Let me ask the question this way: When a girl walks in front of a Frum boy, is she doing something similar to what the lady in your hypothetical case is doing if she KNOWS that there are men who will be deliberately watching her?
No, she is doing something worse. By acting specifically in a manner that shows herself off IN PUBLIC, which even when the “ervas” are fully covered, she is Over Da’as Yehudis. If “she KNOWS that there are men who will be deliberately watching her” (AKA Histaklus) doing this act, because of that action, that would be “Vered” (IMHO).
If a woman is so beautiful that she can’t walk normally in public Tzniusly without people staring at her, I don’t believe that is her problem. The guys are Mechuyav not to look.
Does that answer the question?
Completely absurd, gaw. A woman outside the four walls of her home, with the shades drawn, is absolutely required al pi halacha to be fully covered per all the requirements in hilchos tznius.
Joseph Vs. the Bais Shmuel and Gemara Kesubos 72B.
You can guess whose side I’m taking.
And for those who have the delusion that the “kollel” lifestyle is founded on being “mistapeik be’mu’ot”, look around, and you will see this is not true.
It may not be true now, but if you would have seen Lakewood even 30 years ago you would have seen Jews who sacrificed and were “mistapeik be’mu’ot” for learning Torah.
lilmod ulelamaid – For a serious answer (and not Joe, which avoids the question), you first need to understand “Tznius”. I’ll quote myself:
As promised:
There are THREE (really four) different aspects of what is known as “Tznius” (which is like calling lighting a fire on shabbos “Mukzta”). They are:
1: Ervah
2: Das Moshe/Yehudis
3: Tznius
4: Histaklus
1: Ervah is a din in Kriyas Shema (which is why the halchos are in Keriyas Shema). Many Rishonim hold it applies to other brachos as well. The idea is that a Davar Sheb’kedusha may not be done/said before any Ervah. That includes for a man (as per the Gemorah Brachos) a woman’s hair, shok, etc. This has NOTHING to do with the general idea of a man looking at a lady. See Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 75 for more details.
2: Das Moshe/Yehudis is what the Torah (add: or Chazal) perscribes that a female should not have uncovered when she goes out in public. This includes hair of anyone who is not a Besulah (as per Even HaEzer 21:2). The Mishna in Kesubos (72B) differentiates between the two. Ayin Shom. (Rav Moshe IIRC also has some teshuvos on the matter).
3: Tznius: There is a general concept of Hatznya Leches. This applies to both males & females, both in manner of dress and action, to be “low-key”. (There are also halachos of Tnzius in OC 240, which I will ignore for this discussion). An example is a woman covering her hair in her own yard (a private domain), where there is no Chiyuv (seemingly even if others will see her), but there is a concept of “Tznius”. (Offen a Bais Shemuel in Even HaEzer). In general, Chassidim are more Machmir in this.
4: Histaklus: A man may not stare at a woman. Period. If he does, he is Over “Lo Tasuru”. It certainly is a good thing for women to make sure that men have no reason to stare at them, but unless it is “Trai Ivri Nahara”, then it is not “Lifnei Iver”.
Depends on the scenario. Let’s say a woman is sunbathing in her own backyard, where there is no Chiyuv to be covered, but men can see (for whatever reason). The men have a chiyuv not to look (Etzba Ketana and Histaklus), but the woman has no chiyuv to cover up (as she is in her own chatzer).
Does that answer the question?
This will burden social services for generation to come as they will be unable to enter the workforce.
Bezras Hashem Moshiach will be here then and we won’t need to worry about it.
This is a Jewish country, and really all of the schools should be run according to the Torah. At the very least, the Torah community should be able to educate their kids the way they desire. It should be the Frum people determining how the secular schools are run (in terms of religious issues such as teaching Torah from a Torah perspective, etc). If that is not going to happen, at the very least, it should be the Gedolim who determine how the Frum schools are run and not the government (at the very least when it comes to Religious issues).
I completely agree, which is why they should not be taking money from the secular government that disagrees with your points.
If all of the Charaidim would be sending to private schools then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
A better Title for the thread
Only if the purpose was to have a discussion, but not if the purpose is to imply insult, and HAVE a bashing/comparing thread.
I deliberately didn’t read the article. What type of school are we talking about? Is it a boys’s school or a girls’ school? If it’s a girls’ school, is it a Bais Yaakov or a (completely) private school? If it’s a boys’ school, is Chinuch Atzmai or a regular chareidi school (which would mean it’s a private school)?
I have no idea (Have to admit stopping after “children not accepted at school”. Old news). That is why I laid out the possibilities:
1: Private, no government funding – let them do what they want, not the government’s business
2: Chinuch Atzmai or private with government funding – Withhold funding
3: Public – fire the principal and accept the children
4: If all schools in the area are private, bus the children to a public school
(I don’t see why it makes a difference if the school is for boys or girls, but that may be in the funding structure).
GAW – we are only talking about a case where all else is equal, and it shouldn’t have even been necessary to write that.
So your posts are only on an academic level and are never meant for anyone to apply to real world situations?
In that case….
All else being equal one should learn all day
All else being equal one should do chessed all day
All else being equal one should teach their children Torah themselves
All else being equal one should support their family
All else being equal one should not marry, as it takes away from learning
All else being equal one should marry, as it saves them from the yetzer,
Need I go on?
Anyone can home school their children, but if you mean the few who are being rejected, their parents work and so can’t home school their children.
I mean those who do not want to have their children forcibly with other Jewish children that may not be up to their “higher standards”. For example (that Yekke2 brought), their father did not see the local mikvah personally being filled with Mei Geshamim and not Mayim Sheuvim (which is a much bigger issue than meat being shechted, if you are going to throw out the Klal of “Eid Echad Ne’eman B’Issurim”).
Part of the problem is that yeshivas are partially funded at a lower rate than Israeli Public Schools which would take them in. There are Less Macmur yeshivas that would take them in but they are out of the district. In my opinion school busing is a better solution to this problem. Placing them in a school that wants them is better than forcing them on a school that doesn’t and it will be a better learning environment.
Sounds reasonable, but why does the “school”, which is being funded by the government (albeit at a lower rate than the schools that teach vocational studies), have the ability to reject someone in their “district”? Why wouldn’t the government simply go in, fire the principal, and put someone else in who would accept these children?
And if it is a public/private partnership, why doesn’t the government withhold funding?
(these are rhetorical)
Note: That does not necessarily mean he is a better person. Only Hashem can judge who is a better person than who. We do not know and have no way of knowing what people’s bechira levels are, and therefore we can never possibly discuss such a thing. Whenever we talk about someone being better, we can never mean who is a better person in terms of how much they have grown and how much reward Hashem will give them, since we never have any way of knowing such a thing.
We can only talk about who is “more ruchnius” in this world and who has it better in the here and now. The more a person learns (all else being equal), the more ruchniusdik he is. That is why everyone should learn as much as he can (“as much as he can” obviously involves many factors and is very subjective), and should be happy that he has as many opportunities to learn as he does, and be jealous (kinas sofrim) of those who learn more and realize how lucky they are to be able to learn more then him and strive and daven for more opportunities to learn.
Nice save. 🙂 “All else being equal” basically makes the post meaningless, because all else is never equal.
Joe – We will just have to disagree. Puk Chazi B’alma that what you say is not the Metzius, as much as you may want it.
lilmod ulelamaid: You are not a Charaidi. DL is a whole different ballgame. More like the MO child who fights his parents to stay in Yeshiva. Even for DL, it is becoming more common to stay in Kollel either before or after army service (instead of Hesder).
For an Israeli Charaidi, it is easier to go with the herd. Same for a yeshivish guy in America who can live off his shver.
If you wish to continue the discussion, I suggest moving it to a new thread.
The school has a right to say, “if you want to send your child to our school, do x,y,z. If not, send him elsewhere.” The parent has the choice.
Unless they take public funding, in which case the schools have to serve the entire public.
The secular court has tried to force the yeshiva to accept them and the parents just boycotted the yeshiva. The parents went to jail rather than send their kids to yeshiva with those they considered less frum.
Why should they not be allowed to home school their children?
You mean b-mp 🙂
I was coming from an observation that the Kollel homes have a stronger and more deeply engrained connection to Yiddishkeit, and the many many mailos of these homes result in children who IMHO seem like better Oivdei Hashem.
Fair enough. I (in my own anecdotal observations) have not seen this to be the case.
As before, I think one needs to differentiate between those who are in Kollel and those who live the Kollel life (whether they actually learn full time or have to make a parnassah as well).
Unfortunately, people sometimes don’t want to admit that the school didn’t accept them because of their lack of tznius, so they will come up with other reasons, claiming that the school is prejudiced against them because of x,y, or z, without acknowledging that it is because of their refusal to abide by the school’s rules.
The parents or the children? I get the children not following the rules, but I’m uncertain why the parents have rules (not related to their conduct in school). Your example of covering hair: If her Rov said she doesn’t have to (my understanding is that is not uncommon), what does the school care?
But everyone agrees that a life spent learning would essentially be more ideal than a life spent in the office.
Truth. Full stop.
But they are allowed to protect their children, to keep higher standards they feel Hashem wants them to have.
Sof Kol Sof, they can have “other standards”. Until you prove to me that the RBSO wants them to act as they do (and not the rest of us for some reason, as He didn’t tell us to do so in His Torah or via His Chazal), they are not “higher” standards. They are not “more Torahdike”. They are “Kollel” or “learning Torah full time”, and Kol HaKavod to them if that is what they believe the RBSO wants from them.
Now if you want to discuss ease or difficulty of Kollel vs. working, we can discuss elsewhere. My Moshgiach always said Kollel has easier Olam HaZeh.
yekke2 –
I guess I’m a fool for thinking that adding “[and yes, i KNOW that the two are not directly related etc. etc.]” would stop people from attacking this one line.
BS”D
No more of a fool that Rabbi Adlerstien in his recent article “Satmar: Do They Take Us For Fools?” posted on Cross Currents.
Many (as people and Yidden) automatically assume that the more to the right someone is, the “better” they are. Your post reeks of that concept. Chazal certainly disagreed, and put guardrails (largely ignored in this day and age) to protect Klal Yisroel from this Avlah (examples include “Mechzi K’yuhara”, etc. etc. 🙂
Rabbi Adlerstien (and you) make the mistake that just because someone is further to the right, they have “higher standards”. It is just as likely (as far as Chazal are concerned, not this “Olam Hafuch”) that you have “higher standards” by accepting more, and being more involved (and yes, accepting the other’s child into your school). Not eating at your relative’s house puts you at a “higher level” (vs. OCD)? Do you really believe that? You can understand the other side not wanting children in school (protect my kid from the disease of the other!!), but have to consider if that is how the RBSO really wants you to act towards his children.
There is a famous story with Rav Yaakov where he was at a wedding with a bunch of other Rabbonim. They were all ordering the chicken (over the beef) until someone figured out that they could order fish, which then everyone switched. Rav Yaakov, seeing that the waiter was getting nervous that there wouldn’t be enough, ordered the beef. Is Rav Yaakov therefore on a “lower level” because he didn’t go with the herd’s Chumrah?
I use the internet. I don’t consider someone who doesn’t to be on a “higher level”. I don’t have a smartphone, but that doesn’t make me on a “higher level” than someone who does. Neither would I consider someone who wears a burka to be on a “higher level” than someone who covers her hair in a halachicly appropriate manner.
P.S. Who is on a “higher level”? Baalei Teshuva, and those who go against the herd to do the hard thing. Whether it is the Maimonides child who chooses to learn in Kollel instead of becoming a doctor, or the Charaidi in Beit Shemesh who chooses to move out of his society and go to work because that is what the RBSO wants from him.
Not uncommon during the summer. The boys need something to do while they are “Sharui B’lo Isha” as their families are in “the country”.
For some reason the “entertainment” always gets worse during these two months of the summer, and gets better for the other ten.
kollel in EY is definitely not the easy way out!!
Going with the herd is certainly the easy way out. Especially in EY where the government supports the learners, and the monetary expectations are much lower, it is easier to be in Kollel than to fight the tide, leave Kollel (with all of the issues with the Army that come along with that choice) and then find a job in a society that doesn’t want to employ Charaidim. I agree with Joseph on this one, that it is much easier to be a Yeraim Jew outside of the state of Israel.
People do it because they feel it is important and they are willing to sacrifice for Am Yisrael.
I’ve got a bridge to sell you. It’s in Alaska, only $398 million.
Most of us come from working families, and those who were privileged to have an even more Torahdike upbringing
I’ll disagree with this premise. Why do you make the assumption that a Kollel family is more “Torah-dike” than other families, where the children see their parents make sacrifices for the RBSO? Kollel, especially in EY, is the easy way out. It certainly is not true with Chassidim.
Other than that, I agree with you. different strokes for different folks, and as long as they don’t ask me for help or assistance, or force others to follow them, whatever floats their boat.
For example, I B’davka send my children to a “less frum” school because I don’t want my children being exposed to the bad environment of the “more frum” school. That doesn’t make me “elitist”, it makes me want what I believe to be best for my children.
I read that in Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky zatsal’s kehila, they used to refer to people as Ehrlich, not as Frum.
I really like that. It has a much more pnimiusdik connotation, and sounds like it includes both Bein Adam l’Makom and Bein Adam L’Chaveiro, both Halachos involving actions and chovos halevavos.
Exactly. Frum means Chitzonius, how you want others to view yourself. Erlich means “honest” (literally), which is how you want to relate both to the RBSO and others.
lilmod ulelamaid – if i were to come on during a test you can say bye bye pharmacy school.
You go to Touro? I’m curious because they have a new dean (HC) and wanted to know what you think of the program.
I’m certainly more concerned with externals (definition of “Frum”) than my parents. It is a sign of the times.
A Galach is Frum, a Yid is Erlich.
Why do you come here with your double talk?
I asked you a question – I’ll repeat it.
Question – “They used to post (EEOC) after the SCOTUS decision just saying it means “not more than de minimis cost”. Now they added in “or burden on business operations;”.”
When did they add it in?
I think they changed it after my Court case!!
If you’re not interested in my opinion why are you asking me questions?
Hypothetically (and it would once again help to know which case you mean) the law says “undue hardship”. That was defined as “de minimis”, but when a “burden on business operations” example came up, the EEOC realized “de minimis” was insufficient in defining “undue hardship”.
Not uncommon, I would imagine, similar to IRS regulations come out to allow or disallow various tax shelters as they are created.
Of course not, again such a law means that the government is mandating an official school policy, it is requiring the school to implement a religious action.
That’s something that clearly violates the principle of freedom of religion.
However if the parent body of an individual school decided upon their own to act in accordance with the majority of the particular school’s population in prayer policy, with the caveat that the minority population within that school is not required to attend or take part in any way.
I don’t see the difference. By allowing time for “prayer”, you are privileging specific religious practices over others.
If your argument is that the “prayer” should happen outside school, not during school hours, and organized by parents, not the government or teachers, I believe that would be legal today.
Wallace v. Jaffree discusses the issues with “voluntary” prayer.
Eretz Yisrael (especially Kedushas Eretz Yisrael) has nothing to do with zionism. It is zionistic to think that it does!
This is where Joe fails. Just because there is a Medina, Mandate or PA doesn’t mean that the very air, soil and rocks of our land do not belong to us. Hashem gave this land to us no matter who “controls” it. We are commanded to treat it differently than other lands. It is more Kadosh by definition than any other land in the universe.
I’m bothered by the same concerns as the OP.
1) Allowing prayer in public schools is not “infringing” on my rights unless I am obligated to join in. What does infringe is not allowing others to pray that is disallowing them to pray as they wish when they wish.
Ben Levi:
So you would agree with a law that conditions any educational funding whatsoever (including attendance, busing, Special Ed, children getting therapy, etc.) on the school, at the beginning (or middle) of the school day, praying for the return of Jesus the son of God as our savior? After all, the children have the right to remain silent!??