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Phil – How about starting with YD Siman 249:16 and YD 251:3, as well as the Mashmaos of YD 251:14? (I can’t believe I’m arguing for this side, but that’s how debates go)
Also, you are co-inflating “mandatory” with “what is Tzedaka”. I’ll call red herring on you as well.
Harav Heinemann’s views are most certainly mainstream
So are Rav Shachters’. They are just not what the Charaidi Gedolim in EY hold.
P.S. Are you Chozer regarding Rav Heinemann’s Psak on ovens no longer being valid?
P.P.S. Name calling does not help your cause, as much as it may feel good. If you wish to continue with it, I don’t mind.
I dont think you will find ant Rosh Yeshiva who would say he runs his yeshiva based on that haskgafah.
Of course he wouldn’t say it, other than behind closed doors to other Roshei Yeshiva with plausible deniability. Just like the Charaidim would never actually say that if the Medinah was destroyed tomorrow and no life was lost, they would make a bracha.
People know better than to shout unpopular shittos from the rooftops which will cause backlash.
The quote from Vaykira Rabbah of course does not mean anything the likes of what you took it to mean.
Not me, Rav Dessler. Argue with him.
College, just like any other pursuit that requires substantial investment of time and effort, would certainly be a problem.
Meheichei Teisi, Chaim Berlin & Torah V’Daas always had college students with full Sedorim. Other Yeshivos still do today.
newbee – I (maybe among others) suggested it. I also apologize if it made you feel bad. 🙁
nowhere do the Gedolim of E”Y disagree.
Adopt A Kollel, for one.
Harav Heinemann, shlita, told people to listen to the Gedolim
Star-K’s website still says you can change the temperature on Yom Tov.
I’m not saying he isn’t a bigger Talmid Chochom than I will ever be, but his shittos are not mainstream EY Charaidi. Neither are Rav Hershel Shachter’s, so if you told me that he told you what you quote, I would say the same thing.
Trumps daughter is jewish, she converted orthodox
Gantz Shayich.
Oh wow, Bernie Sanders is not allowed to vacuum the shule on shabbos before mincha and Trump would be allowed to according to many Rabbis!
Wow what a meaningful difference!
Trump’s daughter needs to be Mekabel Ol Mitzvos and dunk before she becomes Jewish, Bernie’s doesn’t.
I personally asked Harav Moshe Heinemann, shlita,
Of Star K and Shabbos Oven fame? Puk Chazi that the Gedolim in EY disagree with him.
M: I believe it is the piece quoted by Joe here:
Their point is that in order to maintain a high level of seriousness, its talmdimim must be focused, to the exclusion of other focuses.
The idea was that if the institution is supporting you, then you need to be 100% focused on what you are studying there.
Im Kein, they should kick out married Bochrim as well, or Bochrim who have a side job of Laining, Moshgiach, or selling stuff on Ebay, etc. It is davka college education with which they have the issue.
Bored_on_the_Job – I said some Yeshivos (or many “Frum” Yeshivos), not all. A good way to tell (IMHO) if the Yeshiva is of that Shittah is if they allow their Bais Medrash Bochrim to attend college, or insist that anyone not putting 100% of their time into Yeshiva is a failure who needs to be kicked out.
simcha613 – What DY is saying is that there is a reason why it exists.
Would you be happy is in the Mishebairach L’Cholim, the words “Kol Yoshvei Eretz Yisroel” were added, which (by definition) includes Chayalei Tzahal, as well as MADA, Hatzaloh in EY, ZAKA, etc.?
Hilchos Matanos Aniyim does not contain anything that can even be remotely misconstrued to support a generous welfare state. Even by the most creative Torah-twisters of the world like Charlie and his spiritual adviser, Avi Weiss.
To the contrary, based on the tzedaka parameters enumerated there, both regarding the giver and the recipient, the RAMBAM would be against such a system. Such sick “generosity” has taken trillions of dollars in income from the pockets of hard-working people and mostly wasted it on those who despise hard work. Worse, it has created an increasing cycle of dependency that has ruined generations.
Then there’s the silly idea of advocating a welfare state to support able-bodied people who decide to learn in kollel. That wouldn’t be considered tzedaka, which is mandatory. At best, for the actually deserving few, it would be considered hachzakas haTorah, which isn’t mandatory.
The Gemorah Bava Basra and L’havdil, the Gedolim in Eretz Yisroel disagree with you.
??”? ????? ???? ????”? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? <????? ??????> {????? ?????} ??????? ????? ????”? ???? ??? ????? ???’ (?????? ?) ??????? ????
We had this discussion here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/government-programs-are-not-tzedakah/page/2
Your post is long in complaints, but short in solutions. If you truly want to convince people to move in a different direction, provide some suggestions or ideas.
Here is one small step. Yeshiva high schools can take more seriously basic mathematics and writing.
The idea of a Yeshiva (Al Pi Rav Dessler, and what many of the “Frum” Yeshivos hold L’maase) is that the 999 should fail out so that the one who is pushed can become a Gadol. If you teach secular studies to all 1000, none of them will become a Gadol.
(In practice there are quite a few counterexamples, but that is the theory.)
catch yourself – Interesting that you read it that way; I read it as an accurate (if somewhat pointed, especially after using the word “shirk” when that is not the case) description of Rav Dessler’s final level of Bitachon. If one truly believes and acts that Histadlus does nothing, and only Hashem can do anything, then that is how he should act.
So the right word many not be “trusting”.
Bitachon means not working (but learning Torah) and having absolute belief that Hashem will provide your parnassah, because your actions do nothing to help.
(I’ll delete the last three to the extent that they are Devrei Mitzva, so “Bitachon” doesn’t really apply).
In short, the more Torah you learn, the more you understand that your actions do absolutely nothing in terms of helping any situation, the better your bitachon is. Like several people said before, becoming a baal bitachon is not easy (and you have to know where you are and be extremely honest), but every step counts.
You can argue that it is different (for example, Rov Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel), but you can’t argue that a true welfare state (single payer, minimum guaranteed income) would not be a boon for Kollel Bochrim in America and increase Limud HaTorah.
Sorry about that.
Also, please name some of “all the Gedolim in Medinat Yisrael” that support it there as well as where they wrote this.
Rav Shteinman, Rav Chaim, and L’havdil Rav Elyashiv and Rav Ovadya Yosef ZTL, to name a few. It shows in their votes (via Shas and Agudah), which are well documented.
You can argue that it is different (for example, Rov Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel), but you can’t argue that a true welfare state (single payer, minimum guaranteed income) would be a boon for Kollel Bochrim in America and increase Limud HaTorah.
If Bernie Sanders is Jewish, I’m a Christmas Tree
I guess you are a Christmas Tree?
Bored_on_the_Job – The reason why Noshim are Patur in Miztvos Aseh SheHazman Gramah is because they are supposed to be taking care of their children (or when the Husband tells his Isha to take care of the children so he can sleep, Al Pi the Abudraham). So it is true that is the reason, and it is true that Noshim get up.
Who knows how many years a person has on this world?
I personally find it to be
You are entitled (if you live in America, where there is still Freedom of Speech). Others are entitled to disagree, as I’m sure HaKatan will post eventually.
Because women wake up to babies at night.
OUCH! Good answer (and totally true).
MW13 – any response?!
My main question is really, why can bochurim talk on the phone loudly or run in the street and if women do so we are told it is untzuyisdik. It’s doesn’t seem to be equal. Bochurim can act like pigs and we are expected to act like princesses.
Real answer – The bochrim know better, so if someone told them something stupid, they would ask to see proof of it in Shulchan Aruch or Poskim, and then when that someone demurs, laugh the guy out of Bais Medrash. Noshim Daatan Kalos, and they are tought to accept what they are told, so they listen because “someone told them”.
PBA – LOL, and Pun not intended!!!
:p
(Rov being majority vs. “Rov” as in Rabbi)
Interesting topic, thanks for bringing to our attention 🙂
I did a quick Google search (amazing how much you can learn), and see that the standard (therefore Rov) finish for wooden cutting boards is mineral oil, which would not be a problem. Some use a combination of linseed (flax) and mineral, which is also not an issue. Of course, if you know that your cutting board was finished with lard……
Gavra at work;
As for touching the tree, it Adam’s major mistake in telling her not to touch it, and not explaining that G’ said dont eat, and it was his own chumra “not to touch”.
It wasnt her chumra, it was wrongly imposed by Adam.
So you prefer to blame those such as Rabbi Falk and Sem teachers, who push these things on the unsuspecting? Or the girls who accept them?
Your choice.
kfb
official spokesperson for Hashem
Is that a statement of fact or a suggestion for a subtitle?
“The Kehilla”
Unless it is New Square or Yekkes, I doubt it is a “Kehilla”. Maybe a Kashrus Org. with that name.
gavra_at_work- she’s getting married in a few weeks.
Going to Israel or Lakewood?
I could go all Freudian on you but won’t. Don’t be concerned.
squeak – Only because cities don’t have Golf teams.
Shopping, it seems that your friend might have been infected with Talibanitis. Please get her some help before she buys a burka.
And if the friend does? That is after all the logical conclusion of Joseph’s points (assuming, as is logical, that staring at a tent is not staring at the Isha, and the Isha is “inside” when the Isha is within the Isha’s portable tent, just like staring at an apartment building which an Isha is within).
That being said, Noshim have an almost 5800 year old minhag to take non-halachic chumros upon themselves, starting from Adam’s Bashert not wanting to touch the Eitz HaDaas.
P.S. Not talking on your phone in the street is a wonderful thing for men and Noshim, and is a Kiym of “U’shmartem es Nafshosaychem”. Bezras Hashem your friend will be Mekayem “Mitoch Shelo Lishma Ba’ah Lidei Lishma”.
Finally, is your friend in Shidduchim? That usually explains these types of signals.
squeak. .what defines frummest?
As always, the one which your neighbors will be impressed how Frum you are, and will bump your children up on Shidduch lists.
What other definition of Frum is there?
:p
lesschumras – He meant East Bayswater! 🙂
His point is correct, though. Anyone in NYC would not be included in a discussion regarding a School district or majority private schools.
Rabban Gamliel and his family played an early version of basketball, complete with “alley oop” passes.
?? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????????, ?????? ???? ?????, ?????? ??????, ?????? ?????.
Mir Bochur means nothing, the place is a catch-all for anyone going to Israel after Gap Year who doesn’t go to Brisk or Speedy Freedy.
That being said, which company has better potential for you, both within the company and learning the business?
Abba_S –
AKA Kollel and recently ex Kollel.
Methinks we agree.
I didn’t know we were making comparisons. Of course.
It is why Lakewood and East Ramapo have funding issues while the Five Towns does not, even though all have majority private school districts.
gavra_at_work, that is probably true.
Yeshivah Gedolah of the Five Towns has a Kollel, and many of the members do live near there.
One. Now compare to Lakewood. ’nuff said.
Sh’or Yoshuv is in Lawrence.
Did a google search and it is on the border. Don’t know if that counts, and I’m willing to bet that Riba D’Ruba of those in Kollel there live in NYC for the reasons mentioned.
The Kollels are in Far Rockaway. I think even Shor yshuv which is quite large is in Far Rockaway.
For some reason, most if not all the Kollels are in the NYC part and not the Nassau County part
NYC has income tax (which Kollel guys don’t pay). Outside NYC (such as Long Island and Westchester) has no income tax, but has high real estate taxes (which kollel guys would have to pay).
Pashut.
the 5 towns really isnt a place, It really includes Far Rockaway which is quite charedi, however Far Rockaway is part of NYC and Lawrence is not (Its in Nassau County)
the taxing districts are different between Far Rockaway and the 5 Towns and the school disctricts are completely different as Far Rockaway is NYC schools and Lawrence is Lawrence schools
Discounting the NYC portion (which won’t have this type of issue), how many Kollels are there in the Nassau County section?
Less – It isn’t the homeowners, but the Kollels, rentals, poverty and HUD.
zahavasdad – Look at the numbers of Kollels in Lakewood, East Ramapo and the Five Towns. That will explain everything.
It isn’t the number of families moving in, it is the number of large families who aren’t making anything near what they “need” and are on government support (but still manage to own a home (HUD), or if not, pay for taxes indirectly via increased rent).
The Five Towns (I imagine) has more working families with fewer children and less poverty.
No, I don’t agree. There is little or no demand (v’ho raya, it doesn’t exist).
Lo Raeinu Aino Rayah!
Seriously though, the transition is still new. Let’s see where we are in 5/10 years. I would expect a Flatbush/Five Towns type Yeshiva to open in Lakewood.
“Mind going into details?”
It was a while ago, and I had a newborn at the time, so my memory is a little hazy. I remember big whole fish in ice in a show window. The items were displayed beautifully. Many spacious isles filled with everything you could want. There was also a screen where you can electronically, not sure what. The place looked like a present tied up in a ribbon.
Sounds like a fun place to visit/window shop. I’ll have to put it on my bucket list.
What’s the frum population in Lakewood?
There are wealthy people in Lakewood, and even not wealthy people occasionally splurge. With a large population, you can’t really say that a nut bar (uch’domeh) shows that the overall character is one of decadence and wealth.
“overall character” Maan D’kar Shmei? The point is (and you seem to agree) that a school the caters to full tuition payers as an “elite” school should do well for that subgroup, as there is a significant presence in Lakewood.
The verbal tour would fall generally along the same lines you gave for Pomegranate. (The valet parking there is because in Brooklyn you have a lack of parking problem.)
Like was said originally, they don’t open Pomegranate or Gourmet Glatt in areas that are “Out of Town”.
I went in to see the place one time when I was in town. I was wowed.
Mind going into details?
gavra, Gourmet Glatt could fit into the same category you’ve described for Pomegranate. But that is a display of “extreme wealth”?! I mean those are all very expensive food items that most people don’t often buy, but luxury is relative. An expensive (i.e. $25) pen is a luxury considering you can buy a pen for 50 cents. Purchasing a fancy wallet versus a cheaper wallet can also be called a luxury. And an infrequent purchase of artisan bread and fancy sliced-to-order meat (or nuts from the nut bar) in Pomegranate or Gourmet can be a luxury. But none of these I would call a display of extreme wealth.
A display of extreme wealth is more along the lines of having a yacht or new Lamborghini. A display of wealth is more along the lines of going to a hotel for Pesach. But being an occasional customer of a fancy food item in Gourmet Glatt (let alone being in the store simply to purchase milk) isn’t a display of wealth, let alone extreme wealth.
Sure, of an individual. But as a community, it shows that the community has excess that can be spent on luxury items, so the stores stock them.
It isn’t Rav Aharon’s (or even Rav Shneur’s) Lakewood anymore.
I’m still interested in the verbal tour, if you have the time.
I said the agudah was against the marriage ruling,
They are. They are just more for school funding than they are against SSM. In all fairness, so was BMG when they endorsed Corzine over Christie.
Seriously though, I agree with akuperma here. You only see the few bad apples, but not the hundreds of thousands that understand the difference between Yiras Shomayim and Chossid Shote.
I haven’t been there for a while, but…
First, there is valet parking. You walk into the store, and there is a gourmet hand crafted cheese display to your right, and a huge sushi area straight ahead. Turning left, a showcase of artisan breads. The fruits and veggies are beyond that, and the meat counter (sliced to order and packaged) is in the back left of the store.
I could go on, but you get the idea?
P.S. For people who go there or live in Brooklyn, was that accurate?
What about chumrot regarding honesty in monetary matters?
A Galach is Erlich. A Yid is Frum, and shows it to everyone else.
(or was it the opposite?)
I’ve been to Gourmet Glatt. It’s a “fancy store” but it isn’t the lap of luxury.
Mind giving us a verbal tour? I would be interested to hear how it compares to somewhere like Shalom Kosher (the big Kosher only store in Silver Spring, if you’ve ever been there) or Pomegranate in Brooklyn (which I have visited).
I’ll take your word on the nut bar. It doesn’t change the Lakewood has much more money than it ever had, and is more Gashmius (which contributes to the issues of schools not wanting to accept that “type”).
Thanks.
Joe – You live in Lakewood and have seen it?
I only ask because you are prone to making statements that support your cause/thoughts, but then have no facts to back it up.
You have been to Gourmet Glatt in Lakewood? What is it like?