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Hobby Lobby also considers the corporation as an extension of its owners.
Would you say the same for a Jew?
In theory, sure, but why would they release him?
Parole. Note that the Rambam disagrees. Roztach 2:4 & 2:5.
? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ???? ??? ???–?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????, ????? ????. ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???–?? ????? ???? ????? ???, ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????.
? ??? ??? ???? ????, ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????–??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????, ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????, ?????? ??? ???? ???: ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ???, ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ??????.
So an individual has no right to mete out his own punishment in any of these scenarios.
It means he’s still a threat, so it does mean that.
If someone (Jewish) is hypothetically a threat to kill someone (unknown and not specific) 20 (or more, or less) years down the road, even 50/50, you would execute them today?
1. Meihecha teisi he won’t? Why assume he’ll do TESHUVA?
2. We’re not. Ba’asher hu shom, he’s a rotzeiach rasha who would kill a Yid in a second if given the opportunity.
3. Known terrorists
Would you say the same for a Jew? And careful, because there have been.
He should be incarcerated until they are certain he will not act again, and if that is never, then so be it. Just because the Medinah may release people before then doesn’t mean that a Yochid should kill someone.
So what “threat” are you talking about?
That he’ll do it again when released.
1: Meheichei Teisi he will, and that is a reason to kill a person?!
2: Since when are we “Nidon Al Shem Sofo? The Yodaiah Machashavos said about Yishmael (an Arab!!) B’Asher Hu Sham.
3: Where do you draw the line? Those already in jail? Stone-throwers? Gazans? Arabs?
As mentioned above, Chazal require us to take personal protections against those who are ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????. Never to be pro-active.
Also note:
Little Froggie – You make the assumption that because the bochur was dressed like a Chossid, he was a Torah Jew. That assumption is incorrect.
1: Chassidish garb is the “in” fashion for many designers. I read an article about it somewhere.
2: The person may have been Orthoprax, and did not consider you to be a Torah Jew that he needs to protect himself.
3: The person may be “off the derech”, and Israel (or America) may have been the final attempt to try and change his Mazal.
Ignore Joe. You had no idea what the circumstances are to even begin to give Tochacha.
Don’t be ridiculous. This was a terrorist who had JUST stabbed a soldier. He is not some neutral person strolling down the street whose motivations we can’t fathom. He has just actively demonstrated himself to be a terrorist! And he is wearing a thick leather coat on a warm day. If those two things together do not add up to a reasonable halachic suspicion of someone being dangerous, then I give up.
So? I have a reasonable halachic suspicion that Health will try to kill me as someone who may be a closet supporter of the Medinah (I’m on the fence). 🙂
Even if you are correct (and you would have to bring a source), the Mishnaos in the second perek of Avoda Zara prove that you can only take personal protections, not harm the other party.
I was responding to the second discussion.
So was I (to you).
Pashut p’shat in not being adayan rodef is that he is no longer a threat. I am maintaining that under the circumstances he still is (aside from possibly being currently armed).
As I pointed out originally in this thread, if those who were there had considered him a real threat to be a suicide bomb (or other weapon), then no one would have been allowed to be near him (which IMHO (and I don’t get a say) should be SOP).
So what “threat” are you talking about?
What kind of raya is that? We are discussing whether or not he is in fact ????? ????.
So what makes someone ????? ?????
Just note there are two different discussions going on which I don’t want to confuse.
The first is if the standard dinim of Rotzaiach, Rodef and other relevant laws apply to an Eino Yehudei, or are there other applicable laws (which no one has cited as of yet).
The second is if the terrorist in question was still a Rodef. For the purposes of our discussion, imagine it was in the USA, middle of Boro Park, and the attacker is a Bernie Sanders (Yehudei Tinok SheNishba) type member of Weather Underground.
Which are you responding to? I was responding to the second discussion.
Just like a Habomacteres is a Din Rodef – so here. How do you know he didn’t have an explosive device?!?
How do you know that anyone doesn’t have such a device? How do I know that you do not intend to kill me? Does that justify me treating you as a Rodef?
Check the Halacha
That Rodef is only when he is in the act of killing? Offen a Mishna, and Rambam Rotzach 1:7
???? ?????? ??? ????
You want to say there is a different din (not Rodef) by an Eino Yehudei? Prove that such a thing exists. I’m unaware of it, but am willing to learn.
Joe – Source?
DY – Rodef is not “Nidon Al Shem Sofo”.
The curriculum for a BA is pure shtisim. Saying this from personal experience.
Agree with this fully (once again). BA just stands for a Bachelor of Arts, which could mean you have a degree in garbage collection, instead of something useful like STEM.
How is there not a din rodef on any known terrorist when we know that unfortunately the Israeli government has been known to release known terrorists?
The same reason why there is no din Rodef after the Ba’ah B’Machteres leaves the home?
Please people, not another thread on this topic. Bitochon is a nearly impossible sugya to understand.
And intrinsic to the question asked. This is as good of a spot as any to discuss it, if the OP wants a real answer.
You can teach/learn a trade without college.
You can also go to Touro which avoids all of the “college” problems, except that it is a college (and therefore by definition unacceptable to the Lakewood/BMG crowd, while spending more time and effort learning a trade that requires more time would be muttar).
We should absolutely defend the soldier. Innocent until proven guilty. He will be tried in a court and the evidence will come out.
Part of the problem is the “rules of engagement”. With all of the modern technology available, the soldier (and everyone else) should not have been allowed near the attacker (in case he had a suicide belt) until it was certain (via drones, for example) that he was no longer a threat.
Hypothetically, if someone is not an immediate threat, there is no justification (Halachicly or otherwise) to hurt them.
Please list some Yeshivish job options (little to no college, short hours, tznius environment)
I agree with “The Queen”. If you really have Bitachon, then Hashem will provide even if you don’t work at all, and sit and learn all day. If He doesn’t, that is a Chisaron in you, and you need to work on your Bitachon.
What makes these criteria “Yeshivish”?
An unwritten Mesorah may be a Rayiah, but not a Mesorah.
You mind giving some more details what you are really getting at?
My family is listening to the Purim story and in it they mention that the Persians didn’t have a seven day week
I thought everyone had a seven day week all the way back from creation
Anyone know of this source?
Wikipedia “Week”, and scroll down to “Achaemenid period”. Seems like the last week of the month (reading Wikipedia (unreliable), and I’m no expert) could have more than 7 days until the next month started.
Olam Maaminim
I really like that term. 🙂 The point as well, that we are in Galus.
EretzHaK – we can move the tangent here:
There’s no secular recourse in that case either.
Perhaps there is a tow truck passing by? 🙂
Halacha punishes theft with a financial penalty. Rav Moshe in Orach Chaim 5-9,11 and Choshen Mishpat 1-8 says you can’t support or have a Jew punished by the secular authorities because they administer a punishment in excess of halacha.
Once again, I’ll discuss the issue of what punishment, as well as Bais din vs. Government on another thread. Also, not sure where “support or administer” comes in to the Halachos of Moser or Shevuas Shav (which the second certainly wouldn’t apply in an American court, and the first is if the Nignav is yourself, not the government). Also, this is Ei Efshar B’acher, and Rav Moshe agrees that then it is Muttar.
Suddenly haskem vehargo is not a halacha?
Sending someone to jail is not haskem vehargo. We can discuss the parameters of Rodef, as well as current applicability to a non-active murderer (if he was one, which you don’t have two eidim), on a different thread. Otherwise I’m not sure what you are trying to get at.
My point was that in certain situations, the government (who has the chyiuv to make rules on its own land, and you agree to abide by them by living on the land) can jail someone, even if pure Halacha as stated in the Torah would not say that person should be jailed. If you want to argue that the appropriate punishment should be something else, that is for the thread that EretzHaK is going to start. When you do, I will bring in the Rambam in Rotzeach 2:4 as a source for what to do with Levi Aron.
People who are in slightest bit learned know the halacha of habah lhorgacha hashkeim vhargo. And that does NOT need eidim or hasrah.
Also for a different thread, but I’d like to hear how you apply that to Levi Aron, and if you do, why you don’t kill him now.
Any one who has a little common sense knows that keeping a dangerous person off the streets by imprisoning him/her does not need eidim and hasrah.
Contrasted with the statement of EretzHaK:
There is absolutely no justification that any Jew can support the jailing of their fellow Jew for something halacha doesn’t demand such an excessive punishment.
I’m glad we both disagree, and say that jail is sometimes called for even if strict Halacha wouldn’t agree, and he is a “brother”, and there is “proof” that is not acceptable in a bais din, and still we believe that the conviction is correct.
EretzHaK – Those are points 2-5, no?
If you would like to argue that a specific crime (which may or may not have been committed here) does not deserve jail (al pi the system of justice that government has the Chiyuv to create as one of the 7 Mitzvos), but rather a different deterrent/punishment, we can discuss on another thread.
zahavasdad – More than that.
Levi Aron, a Frum Yid, is currently sitting in jail. Are you all davening for his release? After all, jail is not Al pi Torah, and there weren’t two Eidim and Hasrah to convict him!!
1. I’m deeply disturbed that anyone here is accepting reports or saying that *any* wrongdoing took place in this case. This is *only* an investigation and the officers yesterday were only serving search warrants and taking documents to use in their investigation.
OK. Now still ask the question, “what do we daven for”?
And the answer is still the same:
that Chillul Shem Shomayim is minimized.
That means if they are guilty (and that is an if), they should be Modeh and pay back so that it is minimized. If they are not guilty, that the truth comes out.
Only those raided know the truth. So daven for them that they should make the choices that minimize Chillul Shem Shomayim.
If the offended ask, you can say they eloped 🙂
Mazel Tov, no one should be offended that you and your daughter want a small intimate ceremony.
ZD: I don’t think you can admit something for someone else. Maybe if they’re found guilty we can say they did wrong based on the evidence. But at this stage – without any indictments or arrests – it’s all speculation.
Also, don’t kid yourself. No matter who we stick up for, if frum Jews and Mosdos are in the press negatively, we are all guilty by association in the eyes of the world.
On the other side of the coin, the Spinka Rebbe, was faced with charges, was Modeh that he made a mistake, made restitution (I think), and exhorted his fellow Yidden not to fall into the same trap of Taavas Mammon to the point of Gezailah. We may not forget what happened, but the story is over and the Chillul Hashem was offset by his Charatah and Kabbalah Al HaAsid.
We should Daven that the same thing happens here, that Chillul Shem Shomayim is minimized. Seemingly, that would mean the guilty should accept guilt and a plea bargain, and completely root out the fraud and corruption (if there is any) so that the helicopters don’t have to come back.
Please yidden, daven for them.
That what? They should get away with it, no. That it didn’t happen, could be, but you can’t daven for the past.
Perhaps daven that they will plea bargain, turn evidence, and that those on the top (who don’t have children at home, fight with their brother in secular court, etc.) get racketeering (and other) charges and all of the people with families who where just “following orders” get to go home after being “Moser”?
Eppis. It is a bad situation. Probably best to Daven that the victims are Modeh and the judge (and the Judge) has Rachamim and gives a minimal sentence.
GAW, only the school board is, and here we are talking about the incorporated Village of Cedarhurst
The mayor isn’t Jewish?
Its Anti-Semitism, the local government is trying to live off the back of the yidden
ZD, explain this one. Isn’t the town (one of the Five Towns) run by Yidden?
And L’maase, I would think the Olam there can pony up the quarter, but if they want to protest, some well placed chewing gum (or even a piece of paper and some tape) would probably work.
How can a chumrah become halacha? By definition, a chumrah is a stringency added on to a halacha
By becoming an accepted minhag Yehudim.
There is no such thing as a Gezairah that Rov Tzibbur accepts anymore. Chumrahs? If they are private, then Zachur LaTov.
Public Chumrahs are just a way of showing off that you are more Frum than the next Yankel, and your children should be allowed into the elite (or even communal Chassidic) Yeshiva.
Joseph, how do you know about their overhead ? What is the average per centage that goes to overhead?
The overhead gives the collector a job. Isn’t that also Tzedaka?
I grant it is not in the official rules “do not break the law by posting”, but….
(1) to incite a riot; or
(2) to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or
(3) to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or
(4) to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot;
[1]
Shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
Very simply put, you have put yourself at risk for a class A Misdemeanor. And you can’t erase the internet, and the Government (if need be) will find you.
I request that the thread be closed, and the poster banned (and the IP address marked).