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Phil, Good point, but regardless what Joseph thinks. Here are the words of ד”ר אפרים שך himself:
“אבא שלי הוכיח גדלות מסוימת כשהוא קיבל את דרכי, למרות שזו לא הייתה הדרך שהוא היה רוצה שאני אלך בה”, סיפר הבוקר לידידיה מאיר בראיון מיוחד לתוכנית “התעוררות”, “ברגע שאני עזבתי את הישיבה והצטרפתי לצה”ל, ראית את גדולתו בכך שהוא מסוגל היה לקבל זאת, כל עוד – ואת זה הוא אמר בצורה ברורה – כל עוד אני נשאר נאמן לתורת ישראל ולאמונת ישראל”.
ZD,
Halachakly speaking, (i’m not speaking from a chinuch perspective) watching your iPad is no doubt the better option. Smoking is deOraysa on each and every puff, plus igniting the fire (and who knows what other issurim that “hanging out” will end up with), whereas, iPad usage might only be a Rabanon.
On the same note, perhaps you can request/explain the OTD child that you understand you have issues and you can not be restricted to keep Shabbos, but if he can please do you the favor and only transgress Issur Rabanon’s (Muktzah, only using a train Uber, bus, etc, only led lights etc.).
Does anyone suggest the above?
All these are Dargos in erlichkeit’. As the Rambam says:
צריך האדם שיכוון לבו וכל מעשיו כולם לידע את השם ברוך הוא בלבד. ויהיה שבתו וקומו ודבורו הכל לעומת זה הדבר. כיצד כשישא ויתן או יעשה מלאכה ליטול שכר. לא יהיה בלבו לקבוץ ממון בלבד אלא יעשה דברים האלו כדי שימצא דברים שהגוף צריך להם מאכילה ושתיה וישיבת בית ונשיאת אשה. וכן כשיאכל וישתה ויבעול לא ישים בלבו לעשות דברים האלו כדי ליהנות בלבד עד שנמצא שאינו אוכל ושותה אלא המתוק לחיך ויבעול כדי ליהנות. אלא ישים על לבו שיאכל וישתה כדי להברות גופו ואיבריו בלבד. לפיכך לא יאכל כל שהחיך מתאוה ככלב וחמור אלא יאכל דברים המועילים לגוף אם מרים אם מתוקים. ולא יאכל דברים הרעים לגוף אע”פ שהן מתוקים לחיך. כיצד מי שהיה בשרו חם לא יאכל בשר ולא דבש ולא ישתה יין. כענין שאמר שלמה דרך משל אכול דבש וגו’. ושותה מי העולשין אע”פ שהוא מר שנמצא שותה ואוכל דרך רפואה בלבד כדי שיבריא ויעמוד שלם. הואיל ואי אפשר לאדם לחיות אלא באכילה ושתיה.
The Kesef Mishnah comments:
צריך האדם שיכוין לבו ומעשיו כולם לידע את השם וכו’ עד סוף הפרק.- כלל כל זה באבות דרבי נתן ואומר שם- שכל העושה כן נקרא קדוש:http://www.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?mfid=81653&rid=104
See Shmonah Prakim of the Rambam Ch 5 for more.
Rabenu Yona says :
ואל ימלא כל תאוותיו לא במאכל ולא במשתה. וכן אמר הרב רבי אברהם בר דוד, שהיה אחד מחסידי עולם, הגדר הגדול המעלה המופלא מניעת המאכלות. וכן פירש דבריו, אל יעזב לגמרי מלאכול בשר ולשותות יין, כי דייך מה שאסרה תורה, אך בעת מאכלו ועודנו תאב לאכול, יניח ממנו לכבוד הבורא מתאוותיו ואל יאכל כפי תאותו, ודרך זו תמנענו מחטוא, ותזכירנו אהבת הבורא יותר מתענית אחד בשבוע, כי זה בכל יום תמיד, מדי אכלו ומדי שתותו, יניח מתאוותו לכבוד הבורא.
– יסוד התשובה –The Shlah שער האותיות אות ק:
סעיף ב’, צריך האדם להתקדש על שלחנו בסעודתו, אמרו רז”ל קדושים תהיו לי קדש עצמך במותר לך. על כן לא יהיה גרגרן ובלען אלא כאוכל לפני מלך הכבוד, מי זה מלך הכבוד, ה’ צב-אות הוא מלך הכבוד סלה, וסימנך ואכלת לפני ה’ אלקיך רוצה לומר שתחשוב בשעת אכילתך שאתה אוכל לפני האלקים, ושאין מחיצה מפסקת בינך לבין יתברך, ובודאי מחשבה כזו מביאה האדם לידי קדושה וטהרה ומלבשתו ענוה ויראה, והיה מורא שמים עליו ולא תהיה אז אכילתו למלא תאותו, רק אשר יאכל לכל נפש הוא לבדו יעשה לו והיותר יחרים… והוא שיכוין אל המצות הנוהגים בסעודה ובזה היא מקויימת אצל הגוף, ובכל מה שיאכל וישתה בורר לה מנה יפה מיוחדת לה. כי אם היא סעודת מצוה המצוה ההיא תהיה חלק הנפש והמנה אשר בה תתקיים, או שיכוין אל המצות התלויות בסעודה ההיא מכשרות המאכלים והרחקות האסורים לפי דרכי התורה, או שיכוין אל ברכותיהם או להסעיד הגוף ולהבריאו לעמוד לשרת לפני אלקיו בתושיות התורה והעבודה ולצאת ולבא מכל דבר שבקדושה, כי באמת הכוונות האלו הנכבדות והרוחניות יעמידו הנפש הנכבדת ויקיימו אותה, כי היא קודש ומן הקדשים תאכל…
One could argue that to official term yourself as a ‘Foodie’ goes against everything Avodas HaShem stands for. Yes, regular people are not on that level, i.e. that all we do, and especially eat are l’Shem Shomayim, BUT we should at least try to strive for it and not term yourself a Foodie. The sforim do say that it is much easier to fast many Tanesim l’shem shomayim than eat a single meal lshem Shomayim.
On the other hand, we find many Halachos based on the fact that one should not “look’ like a Foodie i.e. גרגרן or רעבתן like in Meshechet Kalah:
לא יאכל אדם בכל אצבעותיו מפני שנראה כגרגרןSimilar in Shu”A OC 170:11
לא ישתה אדם שני כוסות בבת אחת בתוך סעודתו ויברך ברכת המזון- מפני שנראה כגרגרן.Hence, no need to say one should not call himself a ‘גרגרן’.
ZD, regarding Rav Shachs son, it is not relevant to the above scenario’s, as he did not abandon Yidishkeit in total. In any case, the following is an excerpt from an interview with his son:
במשך השנים קיבל הבן תגובות רבות על הצעד שעשה: “אבא, אצל מי שלא הכיר אותו, נתפס כאחד הקיצוניים ביותר. אמרו ‘הוא בוודאי זרק אותך מהבית’. זה לא בדיוק קרה, הוא לא היה עושה את זה, הוא היה אבא, ואני ניסיתי להיות בן נאמן. אני מקווה שהצלחתי”.
“Unfortuantly Corporal punishment is still done in many charedi yeshivas”
My point was specifically regarding the above case of getting “beaten up” by his rebbe because he was “dozing off at the end of a very long day”.
While I agree Corporal punishment is used, and is most likely only used for kids who are out of control, but I doubt “beating up” is used nowadays toward a kid “dozing off”. It is one thing if a rebbi gives a kid a “potch” or two for misbehaving and disrupting the entire class etc, but “beating up” for the lack of learning is unheard of these days.
Avram,
“OUR DISCUSSION OF THE TWO BROTHERS WAS NEITHER RATIONAL NOR STABLE.”
“but the point is 100% valid and reasonable, and if you want people to accept or consider your “twisted” philosophy, it would do you well to address it.”Agreed, it definitely hit a good point, and he might be correct in a way. As in theory it could occur and the answer might very well be, that the good kid will have to forfeit his $20 breakfast. Of course it all depends on the “good kid” as well. i.e. if the fact that he didn’t get his breakfast is by no way effecting anything in the long run, then unfortunately, he will have to sacrifice some of his comforts to save his emotionally disturbed brother.
Let’s look at it from a diff approach, if the “bad brother” would be ‘physically’ ill and needs extra care etc. and the well brother needs the exact above scenario – is the above excuse legit? No doubt, you can absolutely tell him: “sorry your breakfast money went toward your brother’s meds etc”.
Nevertheless, we of course identify easily with physical cases than emotional, but in theory there might be no diff.
Now of course each and every case is different and needs to be guided and diagnosed properly, if that is indeed the case of the “bad” kid.
“my 7 year old great nephew wa sbeing beaten up by his rebbe because he was dozing off at the end of a very long day”
LC, This I believe is very rare. Perhaps in some backward ultra place, but I don’t think this happens anywhere in mainstream Charedi world.
“GAON (= never having heard of Rashi or Tosafot), if they do not know the “how to” and they will attempt to defraud the government he is helping them to do an aveira.”
Avi,
Lifnei Iver has conditions of when or what and according to most it has to be בתרי עברי דנהרא. I will quote you Tosfos Shitah in beg. of A”Z if that’s what you want 🙂
מנין שלא יושיט אדם כוס יין לנזיר – … ולפי זה אסור להושיט למומרים לעבודת כוכבים דבר איסור, אע”פ שהוא שלהם, כי הדבר ידוע שיאכלוהו והוא” נאסר להם, דכישראל גמור חשבינן ליה. ומיירי בדקאי במקום שלא יוכל ליקח אם לא יושיט לו זה וכדמסיק, דקאי בתרי עברי דנהרא.”
Tosfos is clear when it can be done without his technical help there is no Issur of Lifnei Ivr..
This is not even בחד עברא דנהרא as it has nothing directly with the Kidushin, thus its not even an Issur of מסייע (i.e. the Rav does not have to know their financial status at all).
I still wonder if you all are such machmirim in all other issurim when it comes to מסייע, or you look for Kulos?
“Here, they are flatly wrong, and their drawback is not knowing the metziyus. ”
Whilst I did not see the full responsum inside, I agree to a point. And as I have commented before, a blanket psak like this is above their head (K’vodum b’Mokomum..) and needs to be addressed by true Gadolie Hador via meeting with experts in the field and all involved. You can not just take a Rambam and say some pshat and pasken for a Rabim like that without truly investigating the facts and hearing all sides before deciding.
E.g. As I have mentioned, there is the psak that you are permitted to be Mechalel Shabbos to save one from Shmad, even though we pasken אין אומרים לאדם חטא בשביל שיזכה חברך and we never say חטא בשביל שיזכה חברך when he/she is a status of פשיעה, but there are exceptions when it comes to total leaving Yehadus and there is hope of saving a soul (שו”ע סי’ ש”ו- י”ד – see משנ”ב סי’ ש”ו ס”ק נ”ז ).
If kiruv has a chance of return, why shouldn’t it override the Issur Kal of (I am not even sure the above situation is even a Rabonon, especially the reasoning of the Rambam :ומחשבה של אפיקורוס לעבודת כוכבים) “associating with a Mumar” (le’Tayavin) ?!
Note – In the Rambam’s times, Mumrim had no record of returning. If one left rarely did they return.
Avi,
“the מסדר קידושיו might be מסעיה לדבר עבירה if he knows that they will do it”This is to a degree is Am Ha’aratzes – Halachakly; unlike by Clergy and etc. by non-Jewish laws the מסדר קידושיו has no implication on the very Maaseh Kedushin. He is just performing the “how-to” directions. All a Kedushin needs are two kosher witnesses. Perhaps, you can say that about two edim, but it has nothing with Mesader Kedushin, especially if the Kedushin on its own is not the Averah.
If its like Joseph says that a non-clergy marriage is not legally married, so they should get married without any official Clergy Rabbi. They can go over all the halachas beforehand and just give a Ketubah Kedushin in the presence of two witnessed and you are married by Jewish Law. As far as the State Law goes, let them be considered as b/f g/f and file as separate.
I wonder if you all are such machmir in other Halachas as well…
Spinoza’s of our generation”
Go ahead Joseph dream on! There are NO Spinoza’s here. All these so-called Kofrim are just non-thinking thickheaded skulls full of air.
You remind me of what I heard years ago a from an old true Litvak a talmid of Rav Itzel of Ponevezh complain about today’s Yeshivah status. That forget about producing true Talmidie Chachamim – they are not even capable of producing a Maskil.
Most of these kids are just simple not even part of any society. They have issues in all areas of life.
Spinoza was a brilliant philosopher. He was a talmid of Menashe Ben Yisrael. (in fact, it was during his absence, that the Amsterdam rabbis excommunicated Spinoza – he was in England at the time), who had views of Kefirah. Kefirah that is still being used until this very day.
ZD,
While you have a point, however Baruch Espinoza was put in Cherem due to his beliefs and his philosophical views on Hashem, which was later proved as certain heresy. I don’t think it was anything with being Frei issue, later on he became totally off..“Declaring oneself non-frum/secular did not prevent Beis Din from asserting jurisdiction over him”
Name one incident where a BD had jurisdiction over a Meshumad etc. I can name you many cases where it was the other way around.
“Beis Din has full and complete authority over every Jew. Even the ones that declare themselves no longer frum.”
We are talking technically. And not in the Zman HaBayis.
“they used such force in Europe when the local government didn’t intervene in Jewish communal affairs.’
Totally off . The ones they used it against were frum Jews that were part of the community. Here its the OTHER way around, we are dealing with people who LEFT the fold and we are trying to do whatever possible for them to return. BD has no authority over them in any whatsoever matter. The issue in concern is only regarding the people who do abide and are part of the community if THEY can have any connections.
The ones that left are basically not even interested in you and are part of (or on the way) the secular society.
TLIK,
While I agree with many of your points, I don’t think you can pasken with mere stories or Drush etc. If you want to prove yourself correct, you need to quote halachik background.“if necessary” exactly my point, Joseph.
Therefore, your comparison to murder is off. Being that Bes Din seems to see that there is no necessary need to enact any of the above. I.e. it will NOT help anyone or anything regarding Yehadus, hence there is no banishing in place. The ones that are out have their own society and the ones that are in are not effected.
“, remember Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon Ha’Kohen?”
That is precisely the problem today. You do realize there was only ONE Pinchos? You know why? Because being a קנאי is a very high status of a Dargah. Nowadays, every הדיוט and idiot considers himself to have achieved that ultimate status.
Mdd,
“Rambam says that if someone became a kofer and he is not a tinok she’nisbah (meaning brought up not frum), we as a community do not accept him be’teshuvah (even though Ha’SHem does, at least according to one pshat).”There are many diff pshatim regarding this Rambam. One that I recall is, it only pertains to the 13 Ikrim and not anything else. Also, the Chazon ISH clearly differentiates nowadays as all have a Tinuk Sh’nishbu status .
In any case, in my opinion, as much as the two Dyanim can paskin other areas – a major Shayla like this – being that there is no clear psak and, Rambam’s as usual are complex with diff pshatim – a Halachik decision like this is above their head and should be consulted with major Gadolei Hador. Let it be submitted to the Eda Hacredis, Rav Sternbuch, etc. let them set up a meeting with all facts and experts on the table and then decide.
Perhaps there is a side that “Mutav ShyeChalel Shabbos Achod – shlo Yechalel Harbei etc. or goes into the issue of Chet beshvil Sheyzakeh etc. If the facts show that if you are mekarev them they will, and do come back then it certainly goes within the status of: you are permitted to be Mechalel Shabbos to save someone from Shmad. Certainly you can say that the above Rambam is permitted (which is not even a clear Issur DeRabanon i.e. associating with Avrayanim).
Many of these kids are emotionally disturbed and have issues in all areas of life as well, not only Yidishkeit. So yes, they are somewhat Cholei Nefesh” and thus a diff status as the above Rambam.
Mdd,
You do realize that there are two different status of Mumrim, one is מומר לתיאבון and one is להכעיס. One who is sort of a emotional disturbed person (many are, as suicidal rates has proven so) although I don’t think he falls within the category of שוטה (though you could argue that yes, as some uphold so, as has been written at length on the back n forth response’ regarding the גט מקליווא.) But nor is he to be termed as להכעיס
Joseph,
“Maybe because people don’t end up murdered or robbed?”Robbing or stabbing Hashem is not as bad as doing it to a human?”
As usual your comparison is really off.
What is done to Hashem is HASHEMS business – You are not the G-Ds Apitropos. What is done to society – is part of societies concern. Simple enough?“tantz is brought down in numerous Seforim HaKedoshim. (i.e. Bach – Even Haezer 21, Chelkas Mechokek, Beis Shmuel, etc.) If you have an issue with it take it up with the gedolei poskim who permitted or even mandated it.”
Joseph,
There is no mention in any of the above sources about Mitzvah Tantz. The only thing is regarding a parent hugging their child in public. No one certainly ‘mandates’ it. I am aware there were some Admorim who did perform Mitzvah Tantz, however, they had certain Kavanos Al Pi Kabalah i.e. something with the Shem , which non of us simple people have anything whatsoever to do..APY,
“walking hand in hand into the seuda would certainly qualify as an act that demonstrates they are husband and wife”
See the below link:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46545&st=&pgnum=219
Footnote Alef
However, he does claim that after the Yichud it has no source.
See end of footnote Vav/6:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46545&st=&pgnum=230Well, I guess people apply the ballroom as the “Bais Nesuan”…
Jo,
“Gaon, clearly that’s not what’s happening at any chasunas today and is not what the OP is discussing.”
Again, let’s go back a step. You claimed:
“Again, the very Yeshivish, non-Chasidim, and most very frum couples don’t follow this gentile wedding custom of the groom and bride walking in side-by-side to the wedding party. This idea comes from places foreign to Yidden.”
The above/below link certainly indicates that it is NOT a “gentile wedding custom”. You may not like it, but it has been done by very distinguished Chassidim and thus can not be rendered as “Goyish”!
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46545&st=&pgnum=229
Joseph,
Here is the source clearly stating that there was/is custom for the Choson to escort the Kallah INTO the women’s side of the Mechitzah and sit himself down there (gasp!).
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46545&st=&pgnum=229
“Is atheism any better?”
I recall that its much worse, one who believes in nothing has no Tikun, whereas A”Z he still believes in a concept of a G-D but in a form of Shitfus etc. thus he can still have a Tikun.
“the Choson walking into the women’s side of the mechitza ”
Joseph,
There is definitely many mekoros and Al Pi Chassidic to that minhag, there is the minhag that the Choson escorts the kala to her seat. I will post sources soon.
There is a fascinating piece of Rav Tzadok HaKohen ZTL of Lublin explaining why there are times when the Gadolim are of a lower level and the rest is of a higher level, and some times the other way around.
Why was it after Navuah ceased did the Chachmos haTorah of the Anshei Kenese haGdolah and Talmud emerge?
He basically explains that there is a concept that Dargos and Chachmoh is of Klal Yisrael as one, and some times it is as Idchei m’Kamei Gavra, the dargos are sort of condensed into a few, and there are times when all is spread out among all of Klal Yisrael.
See below link for more, he explains it and elaborates in other places as well (As of now, I do not remember where…)
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14377&st=&pgnum=10There is certainly elements that are much better than it always was. Anyone claiming not is missing facts. Although the stories make it sound like there was once a perfect world. Torah was in many ways looked down upon.
There were thousands of Am Haratzim who barely could read. There were ע”ה דורי דורות
There were many Bnei Torah who couldn’t even find a shiduch, being that they were looked down as being disconnected and as batlanim etc.All this has changed in the last few generations, you wouldn’t find too many that can not read a siman in Mishnah Brurah or Kitzur etc.
There are thousands in Isreal and the US who are sitting and learning in depth sugyas on all aspects of the Torah.
On the other hand, there has been a shortage of true and ethentic Gadolim as there once was. All you need to do is look on the seforim of today’s Gadolim and compare it to the seforim of prewar Gadolim. It’s not even close. What we have today are “experts”, each on his own issues, there aren’t any that are truly sufficient in all areas if the Torah.
Regarding the the “two headed son” …
It is mentioned in Tosfos Menachos 37a או קום גלי
מי שיש לו שני ראשים באיזה מהן מניח תפילין א”ל או קום גלי או קבל עלך שמתא
Tosfas comments
בעולם הזה ליכא – אבל יש במדרש אשמדאי הוציא מתחת קרקע אדם א’ שיש לו שני ראשים לפני שלמה המלך ונשא אשה והוליד בנים כיוצא בו בשני ראשים וכיוצא באשתו בראש אחד וכשבאו לחלוק בנכסי אביהם מי שיש לו שני ראשים שאל שני חלקים ובאו לדין לפני שלמה . מ”ר:http://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=30&daf=37&format=pdf
However see Reposnsa Shvus Yaakov (link below) Ch 4 for he paskens that it is as two bodies, see all the differences in Halcaha (it seems like a case of Siamese twins).
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1519&st=&pgnum=4
The very concept of the question is in a way similar to the known Midrash in Breshis about rain on Shabbos.
אמר לו (טורנוסרופוס לר’ עקיבא): אם כדבריך שהקב”ה מכבד את השבת, אל ישב בה רוחות, אל יוריד בה גשמים, אל יצמיח בה עשב. אמר לו: תיפח רוחיה דההוא גברא. אמשול לך משל, לשנים שהיו דרין בחצר אחת, אם אין זה נותן עירוב וזה נותן עירוב, שמא מותרין לטלטל בחצר?! אבל אם היה אחד דר בחצר, הרי הוא מותר בכל החצר כולה. אף כאן הקב”ה, לפי שאין רשות אחרת עמו וכל העולם כולו שלו, מותר בכל עולם כולו
However, Rav Tzadok HaKohen of Lublin gives the following simple explanation:
אבל האמת דבשביתת הקב״ה הוא רק במלאכתו בששת ימי בראשית שזה נקרא מלאכה דידיו ומשנברא אדם מסר הכל בידו- וכל מה שנפעל בעולם אחר שנברא – הוא מעשה ידיהם של צדיקים
He is basically saying that all the above pertains to the original world created – all the other ones are being created through מעשה ידיהם של צדיקים and thus not included in שביתת הקב״ה.
See link below for the full mamar:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21327&st=&pgnum=10Joseph/Ben
In this matter we definitely need to say “‘nishtaneh heteva” as in the explained below link, based on the Chazon Ish and the fact that many premature survive…
See below link again:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=28410&st=&pgnum=84In any case, they say the pshat is the other way around that even in the case of מיתה it was still the act of man that instigated it. See sefer עקידה vaYeshev 28.
It basically seems like another version of the ידיעה ובחירה question as well.
See below link from Rav Silberstein of Bnei Brak (SIL of Rav Elyashiv ZTL) for detail regarding nowadays that there is an incubator etc. See what he quotes from the Rogatchover and the psak of the Chazon Ish that ‘nishtaneh heteva’.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=28410&st=&pgnum=83
See Ibn Ezra Shmos 2:2 שלשה ירחים that according to some Moshe Rabenu was born to the 7th month – that is why they were able to keep him for 3 months.
GH,
“I would agree with you entirely that logically, there is no logical nexus between a yid being married and having the requisite attributes for being a chazzan”
Yes there is a sense of logic mentioned, differentiating between one with children and one with not – the Mishna in Horayos ch 1:4 nullifies זקן שלא ראוי לבנים for Sanhedrin, Rashi asks:
? או זקן שאין ראוי לבנים. וקשיא לי מפני מה אין ראוי להוראה
However, the Rambam in Pirush explains a fascinating pshat:“וזקן שלא ראה בנים אינו כשר לדיני נפשות – לפי שהוא אכזרי ולא ירחם על בני אדם – לפי שאינו יודע אהבת הבנים ואנו צריכים להסכמת כולם על ההוראה שנאמר ואם כל עדת ישראל ישגו
I recall the same logic has been applied to a Chazan on Yamim Noraim, as a leKatchilah…
CS,
“the source is a medrash which says chet etz hadaas was a set up ”Where exactly is the Midrash? I think there are many diff pshatim how to interpret the Midrash, and as I have posted earlier (i will re-post)
Even the Chabad Seforim do not say so, at least the Alte Rebbe in Torah Ohr, he says the following in Parshas Breshis he explains the issue how the “Birur Ra” would have been without the Chet (the issue in concern is how is there an inyan of “birur Nitzozos/Klipos without Chet in the world)” :
“. וע”ד שהיה בזמן שבהמ”ק היה קיים שהרי ארז”ל לא גלו ישראל אלא כדי שיתוספו עליהם גרים דהיינו להעלות נצוצות ומה היה נעשה אם לא חטאו ולא היו גולים. אלא ע”כ צ”ל שאז היו נכללים הנצוצות ממילא כנר בפני האבוקה כמו נעמה העמונית וכן כל העמים באו לשמוע חכמת שלמה וכמ”ש במלכת שבא כו’. והיינו לפי שאז היה אבוקה גדולה עד”מ ע”כ ממילא מתכללים בה הנצוצות ואם היה נמשך בהמ”ק כן יותר היו כולם מתבררים עד”ז וכמ”ש לע”ל (צפניה ג’) אז אהפוך אל עמים שפה ברורה כו’. והלכו גוים לאורך כו’.
וכך היה ענין האדם כשלא היה חוטא שהיה כולו קדוש כי גם גופו נלקח ממקום המזבח וממנו נעשו רמ”ח אבריו בלול בשמן כו’ והיה עומד בג”ע ושם היה מוסיף אורות וממילא היו הקליפות כלים ע”י שהיו הנצוצי קדושה כלים מהם אבל הדבר היה שלא ע”י מלחמה כו’. משא”כ אחר שחטא אזי צ”ל הבירורים ע”י עבודה ומלחמה שעת צלותא שעת קרבא כנ”ל וצריך לירד אל מקום הקליפות ושם יבררם וזהו את האדמה אשר לקח משם
The above clearly indicates that the world was original meant to be without the Chet of the Etz haDaas…
Nev,
“Serious question: If a Sphard found himself in this situation, would he not need the heter meah? Could he just get a heter from 1 Rabbi?”
As per harav Ovadia (posted earlier) – a heter from a BD will suffice…
” Sephardim have no need for, or even a concept of, Heter Meah Rabbonim. Since they have no prohibition against polygamy in the first place. ”
While it holds true for Yemenite’s and even Sephardim, however the minhag of Sephardim is not to, as per haRav Ovadia Yosef the נוסח הכתובה of Sefardim is as follows:
“ולא ישא ולא ישדך ולא יקדש שום אשה אחרת עליה כי אם ברשות בית דין הצדק”
See יביע אומר ח’ אה”ע ב’.
However, in some cases permission of a Bet din will allow someone to marry another woman.“Chassidus reveals the underlying dynamic.”
CS,
It doesn’t have to be Chassidus you can learn Mahral and others for that.
CS,
“Their daughters were all educated.”
There is a major difference between being “educed’ on your own than implementing it as part of a curriculum. The Rambam and the Talmud prohibit only “teaching” , we do not find any issur is the very learning.
“But in any event this point is mostly academic. It doesn’t change the other points made.”
It happens to be it does – the diff will be if it can be applied to any sort of Safek. If its a Cherim it is an issue. If its a mere “minhag” than its a diff story. (I recall many poskim discussing it, in regards to after the holocaust etc.)
“but she married a man from a misnagdishe background who disapproved of women learning”
Shlucha – at the time there was no diff b/w misnagdim and Chassidim on that aspect. (asides that there was no concept of ‘hisnagdus then)
Put down –
it wasn’t a Chabd rebetzin it was I think the grandmother of the Alte Rebbe who his daughter דבורה לאה was named after.Joseph,
Regarding the expiration of the Cherem, see the below link, the pishchei Tshuva quotes many rishonim and poskim that do not even mention anything about having a expiration date. Basically, it’s a machlokes and we go according to the other shitah.http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14398&st=&pgnum=12
” if the HMR read signed by three different communities all in Brooklyn”
It needs BOTH i.e. Kehilos and States, lets say Satmar in CA and NY sign it will not render as two.
Given the reason we need sep states is for the fear of one influential manipulating his communities Rav/Bet Din into one heter, (Note there is a machlokes regarding the very reason, see Meshav Davar of Netziv) the same applies to the Kehilos..
LU,
The Chazon Ish ones explained when asked about the Holocaust – it is as if an ignorant peasant who walks into a hospitals operating room and sees a team of doctors operating heart surgery – he starts shouting “murderers savages”! Why are you cutting up that person’s body etc! In his ignoramus mind he can not see the big picture’ that is is all for the sake of saving the persons life.Same is with the Holocaust, we are so far from seeing the big picture that all we see is in hindsight… There will be day when we will all agree and clearly see how each and every action was for the good.
“However the signatories know Even Ha’ezer… with or without smicha.”
In my case, I asked the one that had signed and approached me (who I know and he has ידין ידין and is a T”CH in Y”D and OC, but knows little A”H and b’Tiv Gittin etc) – if he knows the basis of when we permit Meah Rabanim – he replied something to the effect why – “when she refuses to take a Get after a while”.
I told him based on your answer – you, and I bet you many others should take themselves off the list…
“In the past, it was dangerous to teach such things to girls, because by nature, girls go with more emuna, and less daas, so why teach them questions and then maybe they won’t get the answers and they’ll have questions on Yiddishkeit for no reason.”
Regarding Talmud – Where do you get that? It is not mentioned in Rishonim on the topic in Sotah 21b.
כל המלמד את בתו תורה מלמדה תיפלות: תיפלות ס”ד אלא אימא כאילו למדה תיפלות
Rashi explains:
כאילו. שמתוכה היא מבינה ערמומית ועושה דבריה בהצנע
Tosfos quotes a Yerushalmi:
ירושלמי דבן עזאי דלא כר”א בן עזריה דדריש (חגיגה דף ג.) הקהל את העם האנשים והנשים והטף אנשים באו ללמוד נשים לשמוע ונראה דפי’ דמצוה לשמוע הנשים כדי שידעו לקיים מצוה ולא משום שידעו שזכות תולה א] : מטרונה שאלה את ר’ אלעזר מפני מה ב] חטא אחת במעשה העגל והן מתין בה ג’ מיתות אמר לה אין אשה חכמה אלא בפלך אמר לו הורקנוס בנו בשביל שלא להשיבה דבר אחד מן התורה אבדת ממני ג’ מאות כור מעשר בכל שנה ג] א”ל ישרפו ד”ת ולא ימסרו דברי תורה לנשים:In any case, its a heter and is based on the Chafetz Chaim saying: Ais La’asos Hashem Heferu etc being that women are educated more open-minded etc and there is no choice..
However, I don’t think a woman teaching it to herself was any issue in the first place…
“countries today means continents”
The Halacha should still be the same, as the Ch”S allows even countries that are under one Malchus,/Empire e.g. Galicia part of Poland, Hungary and Austria were all under the Austrian empire, (even next to each other) as long as it is considered a separate State AND Community is fine.
Canada perhaps might be an issue in some cases as being one community/Kehila ? I am not sure, but technically, CA should be considered as another country, I don’t see why not.