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I,
“Rav Moshe’s shitos are definitely mechudosh. The Mishkenos Yaakov clearly does not say that the criterion of shishim ribo is dependent on a city ”Agreed, as I stated earlier:
However, he specifically states that it is not conditional or depending on any city population – any road that is “open” or leads to 600k will suffice, (that means even a small town with any road leading to any major highway is a Rh”R). ”
My point was that the concept that 600k does not have to traverse through etc is mentioned by the MY. But he absolutely does not mention any such condition of 600k dependent on a ‘city’.
There are basically two shitos on how to determine 600k, according to the Mishkenos Yaakov;
A) its either any road that leads to 600k, no matter the size of the town (as per Ritvah and his opinion in rashi) B) or, all 600k need to traverse through one road etc. (As per shitas Tur and Shulchan Aruch in Rashi) .“Even Gaon admitted that frum poskim haven’t come out in support of the eruv after Reb Moshe’s psak. ”
All I said was that there are “many” wouldn’t state their official support, even if they do indeed hold so. The reason is simply because they do not need all that extra pressure of being attacked by people that do not know the subject, (as some commentators have indicated) “how can you argue against the posek hador”!
That is how I would do had I been a posek. I personally know some who have written extensively on the subject, and will not print it due to having to deal with some controversy attackers…
Las,
“but can you give me the marei makomos for the Rash, Chidushei Haran and the Mishkanos Yaakov.”
The Rashi is in eruvin 6a (quoted in Igros Moshe) and so is the חי’ הר”ן ס regarding the Ran, it is also mentioned in Teshuvas דברי חיים, מהרש”ם , wherein one rav claimed that once train tracks were constructed all over Europe, that according to the Ran all cities are to be classified as a RhR. All the above disagreed including the בית יצחק ס and the ישועות מלכו of Kutna.As for the MY, Its an extremely long teshuva, so i will post the page in a later post.
I assume that it is the density of LA that differs. As per Rav Moshe, 600k is applied by 12 Mil x 12 Mil needing 2.4 million inhabitants.
I doubt you have that calculation within the above parameters in LA.
Las,
“his view is unique, so you didn’t answer the question. What is the source where do you find an accumulation of streets? Where do you find the 12 mil by 12 mil? ”
See the link and post by ‘youdontsay’ regarding Rash in Eruvin that states a “City” of 600k.
Rav Moshe’s concept is not totally unique. The Mishkenos Yakov’s believed that is really Rash’s shitah according to the Ritvah (also in Chidushei haRa”n), that any “road” that serves to 600k is rendered as a RH”R of 600K.
However, he specifically states that it is not conditional or depending on any city population – any road that is “open” or leads to 600k will suffice, (that means even a small town with any road leading to any major highway is a Rh”R). Moreover, he is very clear that the aforementioned shitah is NOT according to the TUR and Shu”A – based on the Tur/SHu”A, all 600K need to be on one road/place, as was in Machnei Levi at the time of the Mishkan, according to the above.
(I assume Rav Moshe did not see the Mishkenos Yaakov, as he tries to say diff strategies on how his shitah will coincide with the Diglei Midbar, hence the shiur of 12 MIL, and based on the above MY, it is really a machlokas Rishonim, and the SHU”A rules that all 600k are to be on one place)
“The Aruch Hashulchan also disagrees.”
Agreed, however, I recall Rav Moshe mentioning it in his last Teshuvah in Vol 5.
Las,
” source of Rav Moshe’s view as there is no park or market with the accumulation of 600k people every day in Brooklyn and no street that contains that”
Rav Moshe upheld that 600K does not necessarily have to be applied as the above condition, it is enough that the city in itself contains 600k, or that there are 600K within 12 MIL x 12 Mil.
However, many disagreed, and that the Shu”A simple understanding is that Rh”R of 600k is conditional on 600k passing by one place/street etc. (So was the understanding of the Mishkenos Yaakov regarding the Shu”A and Tur.)
See more on the below thread.
“Gaon: The point about how accepted Reb Moshe’s psak was is as simple as this: name one non-MO Rabbi TODAY who told you you can carry in Manhattan.”
Is Rav Henkin a MO?
Is Rav Zvi pesach Frank a MO?
Is Rav Yonoson Stief a MO?
Is Rav Weissmandel a MO?In any case, the Manhattan eruv at the time did not consist of any Tzuras Hapesach, also, there were streets included in the eruv that were assumed to have 600K passerby’s in a day (there was actually a debate that being that shabbos/weekend there was no 600k, if you can rely that the “beChol Yom” quoted by the SHU”A needs to be literal, or at least on the very day in concern).
Said that, I’m sure there are many Non-MO who uphold that if the eruv is constructed of a Tzuras haPesach and does not include any streets of 600K, that you can rely on the eruv, especially, after Manhattan is encompassed with 4 Mechitzos Benei Adam..
Even Rav Moshe agreed (as per Igros Moshe) that there are certainly shitos you can rely on. (The only one that really came out strongly against it is Rav Ahron)
And why you won’t hear that many officially stating so, simply, just use your imagination…If you would to be a Rabbi that thinks it is muttar would you come out with a statement?
” If I understood right, R; Shimon eider, and ylach”t R’ meir rosner שליט”א feel that I the road was intended to serve 600,000, even if not necessarily at the same time or even day it constitutes a רשות הרבים דאוריית”
Please explain according to the above how an eruv in Jerusalem or Bnei Brak (that is technical adjoined to Tel Aviv) is permitted?
“. I thought it had something to do with ראשנים who hold that a צורת הפתח works on more than ten amos, unlike the רמב”ם and מחבר.”
FYI – The above does not apply wherein you have a status of עומ”ר על הפרוץ.
Also, according to most is only a deRabanon – NOT a de’O’raisa, as posted earlier.Also, see the below posts regarding 600K..
in any case, Rav Moshe also agreed that 600K according to the Shu”A is not dependent in the city, as his final ruling was to apply it by 12 MIL etc. not simply by the city..
1,
How do you define “greatness”? And how will that effect halacha? Moreover, as mentioned above, eruvin is not a new concept, and there are many precedent teshuvas from many great gaonim prior to Rav Moshe that clearly did not acknowledge Rav Moshes psak or method.
Poskim like the מהרש”ם, who actually was matir an Eruv on the east side of Manhattan, based on the info provided, despite being one of the most populated cities in the world at the time. (See vol 9 response’ Marsham).
Rav Chaim Ozer allowed an Eruv in Paris (see vol 4 אחיעזר), the Vaad Rabonim of Warsaw permitted an eruv in Warsaw, despite having more than 600k inhabitants, the reason was based not on Rav Moshe’s psakim. (See Tikun Eruvin of Rav M Kasher a copy of the letter written).
The דברי מלכיאל permitted an eruv in Odessa, despite having more than 600k (see ibid vol 4). The reason given does not coincide with any of Rav Moshes final psakim.
All these psakim do not fall away because Rav Moshe ruled otherwise. Every Rav can choose any of the above after thoroughly going through all written on the sugya.
Rav Henkin and Rav Yonoson Steif also permitted an eruv in Manhattan. I doubt they retracted all their psakim after Rav Moshe’s ruling.
” Most people cant make the distinction that we usually don’t need to rely on the CI”s chiddush in large cities today.”
Also what they are confused about is that they do not realize that the Chazon ish has two statements, and the first one as described above is simply, no argument, the psak of most poskim Achronim. The CI mainly mentions it to get to the next chiddush, but the first layout was פשוט to him as the final psak a reshus hayachid.
(Also, another point his statement indicates, that his simple understanding regarding 600k is, that they need to pass through ONE street.
“As to why some argue excuses in the name of Rav Moshe that don’t follow his teshvos, I would say they don’t know his teshuvos that well. However, to claim that these arguments are Rav Moshe’s is simply not true, and definitely not possible, since Rav Moshe wrote otherwise”
Agreed. You either have to say the responsum in vol 5 has been tampered with or that the explanation was misquoted etc. There is no other way to go around it.
is there written evidence that the Chazon Ish called downtown Manhatten a “reshus hayachid.”
There is nothing to interpret, its clearly stated in his sefer terming it a היתר מרווח. On top of that, there are numerous letters and teshuvos written by the Chazon Ish to harav eliezer plotchinsky defending his above shitah.
“Some maintain (albeit we don’t pasken like them) that you would need delasos for every pirtzah greater than ten tefachim wide ”
If i recall… The Tosfos haRosh clearly states that a pirtzah greater than ten is only a rabanon. Hence, the above mentioned achronim did not see the tosfos harosh, as it was only recently discovered, one may say had they seen… they may have agreed..
Milhouse is basically correct, there are many poskim who clearly state that the very concept that a צורת הפתח is not sufficient to permit in a רשה”ר is only a d’Rabonon. (See Shulchan Aruch haRav 364, Avnei Nezer hil Eruvin, Aruch Hashulchan. )
Many here are confusing by saying “Eruv” with eruv Chatzeros or a tzuros haPesach of 4 lechis only where we say אתו רבים ומבטלי מחיצות at least מדרבנן.
As per Chazon Ish, most cities nowadays are by default a reshus hayachid, as most streets that are basically 2 mechitzos עומ”ר end up at one point in the city within a third wall, thus rendering it as a true reshus hayachid, and therefore permitted with a tzuras haPesach.
in any case, brooklyn is surrounded by at least 3 mechitzos בנ”א by sea walls and gates עומ”ר and are not מפולשין ומכוונים due to the layout of the streets.
“The Levi’im were also enumerated. Shouldn’t the count then be 601730 + 22300?”
Good point.
Actually the רש”ש on תוס’ עירובין (דף ו.’ ד”ה כיצד מערבין says that 600k is not exact, it should be more.For all asking how rashi got to 600k, it is based on the gemara shabbos 96b, משה היכן הוה יתיב במחנה לויה ומחנה לויה רה”ר הואי
רש’י: ומחנה לויה רה”ר הואי שהיו הכל מצויין אצל משה רבינו:
וקאמר להו לישראל לא תפיקו ותיתו מרה”י דידכו לרה”רSee פני יהושע on Shabbos daf 6 and beis meyer. Also משכנות יעקב explaining why only was מחנה לוי a rsh”R and not all מחנה ישראל as that was the only place with 600k.
Also, that this shitah is quoted by the בה”ג – see בית אפרים end of ch 26.
“, I guess I’m an apikores then for asking it”
Yes, by today’s standards apikorsus has been taken to a new level and definition.
You may ask on the Rambam, Rashbah, Tosfos etc but you may not ask on ____ whoever some decide.You may argue with any Achron you wish (of course with sufficient and over whelming proof,) but not with one termed פוסק הדור.
Personally, if its not a new shailah and there are opinions of prior poskim Achronim disagreeing, i don’t see the issue.
Otherwise, you need to be a fool to think you can just go and argue against someone way above your imagination. Though I doubt it renders one an apikorus – as a shotah is not an apikorus.
I think the Rashash in shabbos or eruvin daf 6 addresses similar..
“The end result is gross Chillul Shabbos and an entire generation not knowing what the melacha of “Hotza’ah” is, at all.”
Interesting, how come we don’t tayne that very argument regarding each and every eruv in any Israeli town.
Also interesting is how every Pre war town in Europe had or tempted to erect an eruv, and as per many response’ written at that era, most held that the very existence of an Eruv ‘prevents’ chillul shabbos (see Chasasam sofer responsum 1:89) Not the other way around. (Unless the eruv is against halacha, it is the duty of the people and tge Rav to provide one..)
Las,
You are confusing the two types of reshus harabim, פלטיא. Vs מבואות/סרטיא . They are treated differently regarding on how to define their reshus harabim, according to many.In any case, rav moshe holds that 600k is defined by the habitants of the city, and that is how you have a platye.
Also, there are some that hold that there is really no such status of platye nowadays.
The orginal platye was an open market place type that was hefeker and was on the street open to all..Regarding Ocean pkwy, I don’t think it has 600k passerby in a single day, as per the census.
Also, correct there are shitos that the 600k need to be עוברי רגל and thus cars are not applicable. This is the psak of the Bes Efraim (1:26 at the end, Yeshuos Malko of Kutno and the Marhasham
Mill,
So how does delosos on Ave Y cover all of O.PKWY?
iac,
Sorry, there is no such psak. nor does it make sense, as per Rav Moshes defining the parameters of 600K and a city, regarding Eruvin. If there is nothing separating one from the other it is considered one city and one entity regarding eruvin.
Perhaps we should differentiate by County or State. Where do you draw the line?
I did see regarding Brooklyn and Manhattan that we treat them as separate entities, being that the river separates them.
Thinker,
If I remember correct, It seems from Rav Moshe that he’s implying to say that a צורת הפתח can serve as a barrier, hence why cities with over 600k had eruvin, as the very area of the Eruv did not include 600k.
So if the eruv i.e. tuzuras hapesech would surround any area with less than 600k, it will be permitted, as we will not be applyingg the rest of the city.
Nev,
So why can’t train tracks or any highway be a barrier to separate…how do you define a barrier? is there a shiur how wide etc..?
“The boundry between Queens and Brooklyn is really just an artificial boundary,”
Agreed! I still have no clue who came up with that idea..
ZD,
But what does RM say what is the heter based upon?
I don’t think RM had an issue with LIE, rather it is the area of 2 Mil. inhabitants with 12 MIL.ZD,
Isn’t there a Teshuvah in Igros regarding the KG Eruv?
Joseph,
No one will be matir it on the account of the census currently being less by a small amount. As it might be off and it might go up by the next year etc. You can not base it on that only fact. Even the ones that backed the eruv in BP etc did not use that heter alone.
However, what did change is that they verified the validity of Brooklyn (or BP) being surrounded with over 3 Mechitzos Bnei Adam, which according to most poskim renders one as a Reshus haYachid deOraisa and permits an eruv.
Thinker,
I think R Moshe is referring to that bp is within the י”ב מיל consisting of 2 mil. Not bp within itself.Iac,
Sorry, i didnt realize that it is indeed from 2 yrs ago. But regarding the warsaw eruv, I’m aware of the diff as it is explained in Igros Vol 8.
However, that is Rav Moshe’s explanation according to his shitah that 600k is defined by applying the entire city or area. On that account he came up with a brilliant calculation of 1/5 etc. But that does not seembto be as the very reason why the “rabanim and dayanim really permitted it..iacisrmma
Rav Moshe does agree that there are shitos and rabbanim etc that you cannot be mocheh.
However, according to many, the facts are that there are three Mechtizos surrounding Brooklyn, as most seawalls are built up with gates etc.
Also, there are psokim and poskim that were relied upon prior to Rav Moshe, like the Eruv in Warsaw which had more then 600K inhabitants.
“s it an issur kareis or דרבנן? ”
As per Shulcah Aruch Harav (364) Avnei Nezer and others, once there is a Tzuras HaPesach it is only a rabanon, in any case…
The very Kaparos is indeed not a Chillul hashem. What you can ask is if the WAY it is done is.
These so called leftist activists are against any shape or form of any animal eating…
“Herzl cared deeply about the plight of Jews especially after he watched brutal pogroms decimate Jewish communities.”
No one denied that part, the point is, he had NO feelings toward anything of Judaism or anything linked to the Torah. Many Zionists (though secular) were inspired by the return to Israel, as our long awaited Home Land. Theodor Herzl NOT.
Do not make him into any hero, other than he was inspired as an Austrian journalist by the J’accuse of the Dreyfus Affair looking to end the antisemitism problem. His idea until then was to assimilate/integrate with the Europeans, nor did he raise any of his children with any feelings toward Jewishness (do your own research, regarding his offspring’s).
Regarding Auschwitz, the Mapai Zionists are either not innocent…
On the same note, it is worthy to post what was publicized last week in the Gilyon attributed to Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita ‘Divre Si”ach:
בימים אחרונים נכנס אל רבינו אחד מהאחראים בהנהלת בית החיים (בית הקברות) בבני ברק, להתייעץ על דבר מסוים. בתוך הדברים הוא סיפר לו על דבר מאוד מעניין
. לדבריו, כמעט מידי יום מגיעים אל קברו של מרן ראש הישיבה הגראי”ל שטינמן זצוק”ל אנשים מהרבה גוונים, ומשתטחים על קברו ומבקשים מחילה על שפגעו בו, הוא הוסיף לספר כי פעמים רבות באים אנשים ומבקשים מהאנשים שבסביבה שיבואו כדי להשלים מנין אנשים, ובפניהם הם מבקשים מחילה, וכך הוא עצמו היה הרבה פעמים במעמדות שכאלה
. באחד הימים – כך מספר אותו אחראי, הוא השתתף במעמד מחילה שכזה, והאיש פרץ בבכי וסיפר לנוכחים שהוא דיבר כמה פעמים שלא בכבוד על מרן זצוק”ל, והוא מרגיש היטיב את יד ה’ וכי נתקיים בו דברי חז”ל כל המבזה תלמיד חכם אין לו רפואה למכתו, והלוואי והקב”ה יאמר לצרותיו די.
והמספר שאל את מרן שליט”א, האם אפשר לצרף למנין נשים, וענה מרן שלא, והסביר שבד”כ המנהג אחרי שנמצאים על הקבר שאומרים איזה פרק תהילים ואח”כ קדיש לע”נ ונשים לא יוכלו להצטרף לקדיש, לכן צריך י’ גברים כדי שיוכלו לומר קדיש. והורה רבינו עוד, שבבקשת המחילה צריכים לומר בדיוק את השם המדויק בן אביו, של אותו שמבקשים ממנו מחילה, אבל אין צריך לומר תארי הכבוד (ואמר שזה אחד הסיבות שרושמים את כל השמות שיש לאדם על המציבה, כי מהדין מספיק לשים מציבה בעלמא ומה שכותבים בדיוק שמו המלא ובן אביו כדי שיוכלו להזכיר שמו בתפילה כראוי(.
“you should prioritize having an opportunity to say BARCHU ES HASHEM LEOLAM VAED and AMEN YEHEI SHMEI RABBAH MEVORACH LEOLAM LEULMEI ULMAYUH'”
Again and again: The question was if it was “Muttar” i.e. “Halacha”.
The answer is Yes.“Prioritizing” is something each individual has to do, like everything else in life – e.g. will I waste my time in the CR here (this thread is about learning though:) or learn another mishnah, daf, posuk, the time I spend on X Y Z.
And yes, not everything that is “mauttar” or not “assur” means you should indeed go ahead and do it.
Dovid,
A thread doesn’t prove anything. You should ask your rabbi. Or, make a cheshbon hanefesh before deciding. What are the differences going to a place with minyan or not.There is definitely no absolute halacha forbidding to go. But as everything in life, you weight your options; do i need it or not.. Is it worth missing the benefits of minyan etc.
Fact, in shulchan Aruch it says: ישתדל אדם להתפלל בבית הכנסת עם הצבור not חייב.
And it says:
ההולך בדרך והגיע לעיר ורוצה ללון בה אם לפניו עד ד’ מילין מקום שמתפללים בי’ צריך לילך שם ולאחריו צריך לחזור עד מיל כדי להתפלל בי’:None of the above indicate anything regarding the “travel purposes” are.
The Aruch Hashulchan quotes the following:
טוכתב הרמב”ם ריש פרק שמיני: תפילת הציבור נשמעת תמיד. ואפילו היו בהם חוטאים – אין הקדוש ברוך הוא מואס בתפלתן של רבים. לפיכך צריך אדם לשתף עצמו עם הציבור, ולא יתפלל ביחיד כל זמן שיכול להתפלל עם הציבור.
Again it says Halachakly is only כל זמן שיכול..
“In fact, he says one should daven IN A SHUL even without a minyan because of the maala of a shul”
Hidur is still sort of a’ Chiyuv’ (though with limits – see B”K 9b). So I don’t see where in contradicts.
“The same Leon Trotsky who upon being expelled from the Soviet Union was beseeched by the socialist labour movement of Palestine ”
What exactly does it matter? It does not mean that anyone had in mind that they will abide to all his ideas. Trotsky was brilliant, popular with connections and, had many skills that could have helped them.
They weren’t exactly looking for a Rosh Yeshivah…He obviously OPPOSED the Stalinist idea but was a Marxist.
Apusht,
Scroll down and see how he tries to explains Rashi and Shu”a that one needs to go 4 MIL..
As far as “Chiyuv”is concerned there is no Halachik Chiyuv.
David,
“Rav Chaim Kanievsky also made it clear that people should daven all tefillos with a Minyan during Bein Hazmanim.”
That does not help the very question in OP, as of course one should daven with minyan wherein its available.
The issue is if one should refrain to travel vacationing for the lack of minyan..In regard to Halcaha I posted earlier, and will re-post again:
Here is a fascinating responsum from haPosek HaGadol Rav Henkin ZT”L in his sefer פירושי לב איברא.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3217&st=&pgnum=158&hilite=
He is basically saying the Chiyuv to be ‘Mishtatef b’Minyan’ only pertains when one is next to a minyan, otherwise, it is basically only a hiddur..
apush..
“just remember the only one you are fooling is yourself, you certainly are not fooling hashem.’
That goes to every action including the bitul torah it creates. Minyan is only a hiddur and Bitul Torah is something you can never really rectify.
Mainly, when one goes for vacation to recharge and be able to continue with avodas hashem/life as a jew that too is enough of a reason…
adoc,
“If there is a bracha on an eclipse, what is it and what is your source for that?’
It does not matter – as in theory he’s correct, a Masei Breshis should have been recited. The only reason, I recall, is because it is considered a ‘siman rah’, but is still one of the wonders.
1,
“there are plenty of natural wonders in Israel”And that ia precisely why all admorim from Israel are traveling to the Swiss Alps
las ,
Yibum = Chalitza
if there is no Chiyuv of Yibum then there is no Chlitza.“Another possibility is that being that Lapid does not have brothers (only two sisters) the proof of yibum falls away””
Avi,
what does that “technical” issue have to do with the actual proof that a Mumar has no status of a Jew.
Also, do you agree that “Shabtai Tzvi YM”S” is appropriate, according to your understanding..?
“I respectfully suggest that for many of us, its easier to daven with kavanah by ourselves w/o a minyan as compared ”
Gadol,
I would really like the see your (or anyone else) ultimate Kavanah differences comparing…
Meno,
Great point, however, what if there is only ONE minyan in town?
I recall Rav Chaim of Volozhin addresses that issue and says, that at the end of the day, our Kavanah will never be perfect so you should indeed daven with Minyan no matter the situation.
las,
Do we apply those dff regarding Yibum?. I know the Chasam Sofer does mention some differences regarding a Meshumad or one that is just Mechalel Shabbos.
See the above Shu”T Chelek A”H Vol 1 siman 57, and Vol 2 – 83.
On the same note, many mention Shabtai Tzvi YM”S or SR”Y.
So there is definitely a cutoff line.Avi,
“‘Rav Shteinman was obviously not feeling well. ”
Why? He made more important decisions at that time for the Klal than others do in a life time! His mind was crystal clear until the last days. Especially he was extremely careful about every word uttered. If it was ASSUR it wouldn’t even cross his mind to say so. Thus, not “feeling well” is a way out…
“In any case, he is a daat yachid.”
Who decided that the “rabim” holds the other way, just because one quoted a couple of Gadolim saying something does not mean it is final, nor can it be applied to every case.
Mill,
Good point, however the very concept of ‘Minyan’ to Shabbos or any other definite mitzvah is no comparison. Please refer to the above link i posted from Rav Henkin’s psak.
Zion,
You can take it a step further, people lived in villages all yr long without any minyan. (See beg of Mesechet Megilah) They had no obligation to go move elsewhere.
However, tzadikim were able to have proper kavanah, whereas us simple folks do not, so losing out on minyan effects our tefilah. That is something one should take into consideration. Nonetheless, from halachik perspective is a diff story.