GAON

Regarding RT 9 –
BTW there are shitos that you don’t apply cars to the amount of Reshus HaRabim, being that a) its in a reshus on its own and b) is not Holech Be’regel as in Diglei Midbar.

“are far from ideal and rely on several קוּלות, meaning many people won’t carry there.”

Carrying or not is not the issue, as per Shitah Mekubatzes (in Betzah) and many Poskie Achronim, there is an Inyan to construct an Eruv to prevent people from mistakenly carrying or for the needy.

You can be Machmir and not carry. Rav Chaim of Brisk did not use the eruv in Brisk but he still made sure there was an Eruv.

The issue with “קרפוף” is by far new, and all achornim managed to deal with it.

Again, unlike Brooklyn, as per the Shulcan Aruch there is clearly no issue with Reshus haRabim, it is no different than Yershalayim and many other towns. Unless you go with the Chazon Ish (who holds that cities have less of a problem) Rav Moshe did allow an Eruv in Kew Gardens.

In addition, I am sure there is a way to add to many developments “Dalsos” (haRaos linal) and close it off once or twice a year.

“in Lakewood you are dealing with a situation where as a matter of principle “it has never been done””

The mesorah did not start in Lakewood. Did Rav Ahron leave some kind of a Tzavah and psak that never can there an eruv be constructed in Lakewood? I know he did hold (and written) that Manhattan was a reshus haRabim but that is not relevant to Lakewood.

A Woman,

“To all of you who’d rather see people become frei then be Modern Orthodox”

No one here suggested anything like it — Not even Joseph!

Joseph, as IF we would ever think you would agree!

In any case, the issue here is not about if MO is good or not. Rather, if the very ones that are going OTD for whatever reason it is (pressure from the Orthodox community, its too much… etc.) should rather stay with the basics and even it is only basic emunah and deOraiso it sure is better than giving up everything.

I think it’s sounds like a very helpful thing.

I always used to say I don’t understand many of these Otd who come from hassidim and very ultra, when they claim the left because of the lack of openness, education, freedom etc. What is the need to throw everything away? I understand orthodoxy was too much for you to handle (for whatever sad reason he has) but you can still join communities that only require the basics.

But according to Joseph its either this or nothing!

“spiritual algebra ”

Great description, Assur! 🙂

It is indeed sad and comical how the mindset of these Meshichists work. They use the sort of logic that you would never ever apply to any other halacha, but when it comes to a an ultra sensitive Yesod like Moshiach everything goes.

You have yet to show how it’s nonsense.”
” Any appeal to hidden things is not at all relevant to this conversation.”

Chat,

Sorry if I did insult you, but this entire subject is nothing less than one big frustration and insulting issue.

Even more frustrating… is that you don’t seem to come across as an entire ignorant kid, nevertheless, totally confused and brainwashed.

In my world or any other reasonable person here – if one would to decide any major decision about something, we would first make sure we are total versed IN and OUT on that issue. I would be reading and studying anything available to fully understand to the best of my ability …and THEN base my decision on what I hear, know and comprehend.

YOU and many other confused neshamas decided that the Rebbe prophesied a prophecy.
Perhaps you misunderstood his words? Perhaps you misunderstood what the term Navi was meant etc?

If I were you I would would extensively study and try to answer the following and many others, before you speak.

Is there Nevuah in Chutz leAretz?

Is there a specific Lashon a Navi prophesies?

How is a Navi established?

If there is a concept of “Ruach haKodesh” which can foretell the future – what is then the significance of Navuah?

How does one become a Navi Sheker? What is a Navi Sheker all about?

Can anyone become a Navi – is Navuah tied to the Tzadik Hador?
When did Nevuah cease?
Did it gradually cease – Why did it cease?
Was there a prophecy about Nevuah ceasing?
Will Nevuah reappear again? If yes – when and how?
Are there different levels of Navuah?
Does Moshiach need to be a Navi?
If yes – what level of a Navi will he be?

“there are Halacha’s listed in the Rambam”

Fine. Lets start with the following Rambam:

לפיכך כשיבוא אדם הראוי לנבואה במלאכות השם

What does the term “אדם הראוי לנבואה” mean?

Hint: It does not mean he can preform miracles as that is what he describes later, nor does it mean Nasi Hador…

DY,

“Somehow, I don’t think Seichel Hayoshor is going to be too thrilled ”

I think at this point, even Shlucha won’t be….

How old is that kid? I will be Dan Lkaf Zchus and say he’s tops 15 YO.

MC,

“Also the Rebbe himself said” ….

You reminded me of a certain classic story that reads as the following :):

בחבורה של מתנגדים ספר אחד מהם בגנותו של צדיק.
:היה שם גם חסיד אחד, קפץ וקרא
.עפר לפיך! הרבי יש לו כל ערב-שבת גילוי-אליהו ואתה מתחצף לספר בגנותו

:שאל המתנגד
?זו מניין לך, שיש לו גילוי-אליהו כל ערב-שבת

:השיב החסיד
מפיו הקדוש שמעתי.

:ליגלג עליו המתנגד
?שמא הוא משקר

צעק החסיד:
?!רשע! אדם, שיש לו גילוי-אליהו, ישקר

CSת

“I take personal offense at the statement made by CS that the Vilna Gaon saw the Alter Rebbe of Lubavich through a key hole, realized that if he would meet him he would have become a chossid and ran away. But this is just a symptom of the above stated problem.”

I didn’t make it up or I would get your personal offense, this is a story I watched the descendent of the Vilna Gaon’s top talmid say is the tradition passed down through the family”

I already addressed this point – way back.

Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

Do you really believe everything someone says on a video – only because he claims to be a descendant?

I have read plenty of material on that issue, good and bad– sorry, but this is utterly nonsense. The Gra never bothered seeing the Alter Rebbe, nor did he have any issues with emotions. Meaning, if he felt there is real kedusha,he would have no issue facing it.
You are not speaking about some nowaday Rosh Yeshiva!

The Gra when he completed writing his pirush on Shir hashrim, he stated to his talmid: he has completed all torah, Niglah and Nistar to the level of keSinusei m’Sinai, he has only one question in nistar, which he would travel to the other end of the world to find an answer…

Do you really think he couldn’t face the truth?!

In any case, the Machlokes was not based how people portray it was…and is a discussion on its own.

Anyways, see the following link for the Rebbe The Tzemach Tzedek’s take on the very Machlokes. His opinion (as related to the Aruch Hasulchan) is that it actually benefited Chassidm:

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48315&pgnum=81

Read it carefully and you will see, that It’s really interesting how history repeats itself…how Chassidus did go overboard these days..

DY,
“If the Rebbe was a navi (he wasn’t), then according to the basic gemara and rishonim, he was a navi sheker.”

Interesting, I think the ones THINKING he is a Navi have more in common with Navuah then the Rebbe Himself!

? הא כיצד

Very simple:
מיום שחרב בית המקדש ניטלה נבואה מן הנביאים וניתנה לשוטים ולתינוקות

Phil,

The issue about Moshiach living was addressed by the Ramban (not that it has anything with the Rebbe):

אמרתי לו, … ואתה אדונינו המלך שאלת והקשית לי יפה מהם, שאין במנהג האדם לחיות אלף שנה. ועכשיו אברר לך תשובה לשאלתך, הנה אדם הראשון חיה אלף שנה פחות ע’ שנה, ואלו לא חטא, חיה יותר ויותר או לעולם, והגוים והיהודים כולנו מודים שחטאו וענשו של אדם הראשון יתבטל לימות המשיח, אם כן, אחר שיבא המשיח יהיה בטל מכלנו, אבל במשיח עצמו בטל הוא לגמרי, אם כן ראוי הוא המשיח לחיות אלף ואלפים שנה, או לעולם, וכן המזמור אומר, חיים שאל ממך וגו’, וזה מבואר…

רמב”ן – ספר הוויכוח

Chat,
“navi hador” ‘nevuah”

You keep on mentioning that the Rebbe had a Nevuah and he was Navi Hador etc. I asked you more than once can you define what a Navi or Nevuah is?

What are its conditions? How do we know one has prophesied. What is the diff between Ruach Hakodesh and Nevuah? What is the diff between what we call Ruach Hakodesh and what is really ruach hakodesh in real terms of the Talmud and Navi? What are the diff categories of Nevuah?

I am confident that you have no inkling what it’s really about, other than someone predicting something at one point or two.
However, but in any case you DO know that whatever supposedly it is, the Rebbe sure was and did.

I will leave you with one point. One condition is that a navi can not receive any nevuah in Chu”l. ..(that is the reason why Yonah hanavi fled to חו”ל) I wonder if that includes 770…

MDd,
“Gaon, this is how other Achronim learn it with the Brisker Rov’s girsa.”

IS IGNORANCE AN EXCUSE FOR APIKORSUS:

I don’t really see where it contradicts the above Rav Chaim. Even if we say that it’s conditional the Rambam does say וְלֹא יְמַהֵר אָדָם לְהָרְגָן
The Rambam should have said וְלֹא יהרגו ” ‘Yemaher’ looks like that in essence he is already in a state of ‘Moridin’ only, he is a complete ‘Onus’ thus we wait and not “rush” . In any case, once he is exposed to any form of Judaism – ignorance is by no means any excuse, which is our case.

Rav Chaim Brisker says this chidush to explain the Rambam’s shitah in Hilchos Teshuva regarding Hashem’s incorporeality – anyone believing G-d is any sort of a physical form is a MIN , he answers the Ravad’s known hasagah : “that many fine and better Jews perceived G-d as a physical form due to Pesukim etc”… this is how its quoted by Rav Elchonan Wasserman in Kovetz Ha’aros in the name of Rav Chaim, that:

“Nebach An Apikorus Iz Oich An Apikorus”.

He is deriving it from the above Rambam in Pirush haMishnayos as he completes the 13 Ikrim he states:

וכאשר יאמין האדם אלה היסודות כלם, ונתבררה אמונתו בהם – הוא נכנס בכלל ישראל
Its seems like without that he is not part – נכנס בכלל ישראל

In fact, The Abarbenal in Rosh Amunah has the very same explanation on the Rambam vs the Raavad. The Ra’avad upholds that if the belief is due to misreading the Pesukim and Chazal, then he is not considered an apikoras, whereas the Rambam holds that no matter what the excuse – you cannot be part of Judaism if you think G-D is anything sort of corporeal. He explains that there are two types of ‘minim’ one unintentionally which Hashem awaits for his Tshuvah and one is like Acher/Elisha, intentional, that his teshuva was not accepted, but in essence they are both the same:

See the below link at the beginning of the page.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32592&st=&pgnum=25

Rav Moshe Feinstein ZTL paskens like the above (regarding “edim’ and answers the Rambam of “Tinuk Sh’nishbu”, I will quote (Aven Ha’ezer Vol 1:82 Anaf 11) :

וז״ל: אגרות משה
, ואמינא עוד יותר, דאף בניהם שכתב הרמב״ם שם [פ״ג מהלכות ממרים] בהלכה ג׳, אבל בני התועים האלה ובני בניהם שהדיחו אותם אבותם, ונולד ובין הקראים, וגדלו אותם על דעתם, הרי הוא כתינוק שנשבה ביניהם וגדלוהו ואינו זריז לאחוז בדרכי המצוות שה״ה כאנוס עיי״ש, שחזינן שאין להם דין מורידין ולא מעלין, מ״מ לענין פסול לעדות, גם הם פסולין. דנהי דלא גרע מעכו”ם, אבל לא עדיף מעכו”ם לענין עדות, דעכ״פ אינו בכלל ישראל לעדות, דאנוס אינו כמאן דעבד, ולכן כמו שעכו”ם פסול לעדות, כ״כ פסולין בני הכופרים.

ואף שלענין לא מעלין מסתבר דעדיף מעכו”ם, מטעם שאיתא ברמב׳׳ם שם, שצריך להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשכן בדברי שלום עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה. מה שליכא זה בעכו”ם, מ״מ לענין עדות, כל זמן שלא חזרו בתשובה והם בטעותם, לא עדיפי מעכו”ם, מאחר דחזינן דכפירה מחשיבה ליצא מכלל ישראל, משום שאינו מחזיק בדת ישראל

, לכן כל זמן שטועה אינו בכלל ישראל, רק שלענין מעלין עדיף, משום דעל עכו״ם איננו מחוייבין להחזירו למוטב, ועליהם אנו מחוייבין להחזירן למוטב, ולכן אף אם נדמה אותם כנשבו בין העכו״ם מחמת הכפירה שנתפשטה בעולם, רחמנא ליצלן, ונגררו אחריהם, מ׳׳מ פסולין דלא עדיפי מעכו”ם

Joseph,
“The Rosh Yeshiva of Ponovitch”

Which “RY”? Rav Shach?

Rather you should ask yourself if you have any inkling about their greatness or even their talmidim.

Just to prove my point, we all know and agree the GRA was much greater then let’s say the Chazon Ish or the Choftz Chaim. Can you explain and describe with exactly what?

If you can’t then don’t waste your time on the above…

Md,

:Gaon, as a side point, that’s not what Rav Chaim Brisker meant. Otherwise, Tzedukim who were never exposed to real Yiddishkeit would not be considered tinokos she’nishbu.”

Sorry, but That is exactly his chidush in the very Rambams shitah where the wording of the Rambam in pirush hamishnayos on perek Chelek indicates so. The Rambam states after establishing the Yud Gimel Ikrim

Mוכאשר יאמין האדם אלה היסודות כלם, ונתבררה אמונתו בה”
“הוא נכנס בכלל ישראל

We see clearly from the very words of הוא נכנס that it’s a conditional matter of what makes and defines a Jew as a Jew. Ignorance is only applicable for all other mitzvos, but not for these. That is how Rav Chaim explains it. And that is the reason why the Rambam has 13 Ikrim and not 3 of 4 as others have, being that the above is applicable to all 13 .

However, you did raise a good point about the Halcha of Tinuk shenishba. On that, I heard that the Brisker Rav pointed out that in the old accurate prints of the Rambam at the Halcha of Tinuk shenishbu, the Rambam adds. I will quote (and it is printed in the updated rambams)

פ”ג מהל’ ממרים
ג2 אֲבָל בְּנֵי אוֹתָן הַטּוֹעִים וּבְנֵי בְּנֵיהֶם, שֶׁהִדִּיחוּ אוֹתָם אֲבוֹתָם וְנוֹלְדוּ בְּמִינוּת וְגִדְּלוּ אוֹתָם עָלָיו – הֲרֵי הֵן כְּתִינוֹק שֶׁנִּשְׁבָּה לְבֵין הַגּוֹיִים וְגִדְּלוּהוּ הַגּוֹיִים עַל דָּתָם, שֶׁהוּא אָנוּס; וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁשָּׁמַע אַחַר כָּךְ שֶׁהָיָה יְהוּדִי, וְרָאָה הַיְּהוּדִים וְדָתָם, הֲרֵי הוּא כְּאָנוּס, שֶׁהֲרֵי גִּדְּלוּהוּ עַל טָעוּתָם – כָּךְ אֵלּוּ הָאוֹחֲזִים בְּדַרְכֵי אֲבוֹתֵיהֶם שֶׁתָּעוּ. לְפִיכָךְ רָאוּי לְהַחֲזִירָן בִּתְשׁוּבָה, וְלִמְשֹׁךְ אוֹתָן בְּדַרְכֵי שָׁלוֹם עַד שֶׁיַּחְזְרוּ לְאֵיתַן הַתּוֹרָה, וְלֹא יְמַהֵר אָדָם לְהָרְגָן.

The last sentence “ולא ימהר אדם להרגן” was omitted from the semi old prints (for obvious reasons) which basically means that מעיקר הדין בעצם he has a status of a MIN ומרידין ולא מעליו however being that he is a תינוק שנשבה ראוי תחלה “להחזירו בתשובה”

Note, the Chazon Ish in YD however disagrees.

WTP,

“Here’s a different way to look at it- Torah Mosdos take money from the government in order to survive. So it is a way to be marbitz Torah. What a zechus for the government- the country certainly needs it. Like it or not, they are supporting Torah and those who study it.”

Good point. I think that is what Ponevezh Rav Rav Kehanman ZTL believed. He allowed the Yeshiva to fly the (Zionist!) Israeli flag on Yom Haatzmaut – not because he believed in Zionism, rather, out of respect to the “greatest Tomech Torah” which he benefited greatly.

Furthermore, in essence many believed that of course it is “better” not to receive support from the secular non-religious – but easier said than done. Satmar and Kenoim have a couple of hundred families in their EY mosdos, so it is no big deal to sustain itself on support from abroad. (I think The Tashbar Talumd Torah in Bnei Braq does not take any money, as per Chazon Ish that Tinokos Shel Beis Rabbon should rather be taught Al TeHaros haKodesh”).

Story goes Ponevezh Rav once visited or met the Brisk Rosh Yeshiva Rav Berel Soloveitchik (who opposed taking money) and of course the discussion was about Ponevezh taking money etc; the Ponevezh Rav asked him: can I please see your Yeshiva dorm? He replied we have none – bacharim of the yeshiva have their own “diros”, he asked him can I see the Yeshivas dining room/kitchen, he replied they eat/cook in their own diros apartment. Finally he asked him how many staff members does he have? He replied “a few”. Ponevezh Rav answered – Nu, Given your expenses I would either not take…

5,
“And the same Tayneh’s you are saying about Chabad and chassidim in general were also made against the originators and original students of the mussar movement.”

Which Taynes about Chabad are you referring to?

As a BTW – Do you think the original Heter Chassidim had on let’s say Zman Tfilah is still relevant today?

Generally speaking – I think not.
Note, I’m not speaking about a few Yichidum…

“If one person, all on his own, has a a clear belief that Reb Moshe Feinstein is vadai Moshiach, is he violating anything or doing anything wrong?”

“violating anything”
No – BUT if he creates an entire religion out of it – YES!

“anything wrong”
If being a lunatic is wrong then yes.

LF,

I think the other two were Rav MM of Rimonov and the Avodas Yisrael of Koshnitz.

While I did find it comical. To keep things in perspective,

“No one else does this type of Kiruv. Aish Hatorah and Ohr Sameach, Uri Zohar…all worthless and haven’t done anything”

While there is no doubt about all other movements like Shas has done etc. But Who was the brainchild of the very concept of BT movement in the first place?. There was a time that once someone was OTD or born secular he never returned.

Who is responsible for enabling such a possibility of all other wonderful movements to exist?
Does that indicate one as Gadol Hador? No. but…
Give credit where credit is due.

Let’s go to the source of the issue/problem:

MC or ChabadShlucha,

You claim there was a “נבואה”..

How do you define a נביא?
How do you define נבואה?

And don’t tell me he predicted once something…or some other miracles. That is not what a Navi is all about.

MC
“Sefer hazikaron relates that when the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe met with the Sfas emes, the Sfas emes took the previous Rebbes hand and said “Ah! A holy hand!”

You mean Sefer הזכרונות. Of the ריי”ץ?

Did someone let out the word that there is Yafutzu campaign here?
RebYid – I bet you posted something on the Chabad site 🙂

Cont – @ MC
“U say “not succeed” is the same as killed. Ok, but then why write killed? “

I already gave you a simple logic reason why the Rambam could have singled out “killed” – my point is not exactly to explain and delve into the Rambam. The point is to show that whatever you derive from these Diyukim can be directed into many other simplified pshutim – without having to be “meChadsh” new Halachas and Hanachos- on why the Rmbam says “killed”.

ואם לא הצליח עד כה, או נהרג—בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה, והרי הוא ככל מלכי בית דויד השלמים הכשרים שמתו. ולא העמידו הקדוש ברוך הוא אלא לנסות בו רבים, שנאמר “ומן המשכילים ייכשלו, לצרוף בהן ולברר וללבן—עד עת קץ: …

The simple pshat in Rambam indicates that once the alleged Moshiach is “nistalek” Niftar” Dies” – the process is over – done with!

You want to say some other pshatim, you can say ANYONE can arise and be Mosheach, but as far as the above process goes, it is “לא הצליח” and over with.

And if you want to go with “Zochu”, then the Rebbe is by the most, as good as anyone else is. You cannot have it both ways.

Note – all the above is all based on the assumption that there was indeed any process of “chezkas Moshiach”. But as I have pointed out in the beginning of this thread – that has either not been achieved, and thus disqualifying him as the candidate all together, and despite Rav SB Wolpo trying diyukim shonim uMeshunim to say it doesn’t have to be achieved – the Mabi”t in Kiryat Sefer is very clear not like him. ואכמ”ל