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Aveira,
I’m quite aware that they had nevi’im and we don’t. I was responding to your post on another thread where you claimed that “everyone knew bayis sheni was temporary” and that the state “holds back the true geulah”.
Your “halacha” of not going up en masse is the opinion of a daas yachid and not so “simple”. Which of the seven million Jews currently in Eretz Yisrael are violating it and where do you suggest they go?
Aveira,
We know from the Gemara in Yoma and Medrash Shir Hashirim that those who ignored the Nevi’im and stayed in Bavel during Bayis Sheni prevented it from becoming the final Beis Hamikdash.
Our redemption is held back by frum Jews who should know better constantly spewing criticism and hatred against other Jews and even worse, entire groups of Jews.
AAQ,
Please stop sidetracking common with any facts or questions. He’s busy watching YouTube videos on legal strategy to assist the chasid with a lawsuit that won’t happen.
Pekak,
I wrote “chasid”, which has other meanings and uses besides “chassidish”. You may want to read the entire thread from the beginning.
Pekak,
Who used the term “chassidish”?
Yay.
Hopefully, the chasid has learned the very important lesson of not touching other people’s children for any reason.
Joseph,
So this is your dissertation? Are you pursuing a degree with Cracker Jack U?
It does make a very strong argument in favor of formal High School secular education for boys.
Joseph,
The immodesty issues are probably much worse on an ocean liner than an airplane. Do you embark and disembark with blinders on, and stay in your cabin the entire time? Do you travel with a minyan and a Sefer Torah or do you forgo those for several weeks?
AAQ,
So Rabbeim should be happy with low salaries or even work for free? Do you?
Joseph,
What was the topic of and degree for which you wrote your dissertation?
Joseph,
How do you usually travel to Israel?
Joseph,
As usual, you have no grounds at all for your silly boich svara. The thousands of Kollel wives supporting husbands in learning by working at secular gentile culture workplaces Manhattan, Tel Aviv, etc., prove otherwise.
They obviously didn’t consult with you first on the halacha hotline you claim to answer. Why might that be?
Joseph,
The Gedolim felt otherwise when they began advocating for widespread Kollel learning after the Holocaust. They understood quite well that women would have to go out into the workplace and felt it was worth any drawbacks. They haven’t reversed that decision in the past eighty years.
Aveira,
This obviously triggers your insecurities but there are countless charedi women in the working world who’ve gotten a solid Bais Yaakov education, including a great deal of Halachic knowledge and Yiras Shamayim. They have then attained professional careers since this allows them to support husbands in Kollel for the long-term. The fact is most of them have opted not to get jobs in Jewish organizations or schools because the pay and benefits there are lousy.
I understand you can’t process this reality but they’re not spending hours every day bashing entire groups of Jews who are different from them. So their ruchnius is just fine; its yours that’s broken beyond repair.
Aveira,
Growing up MO and becoming a flip-out obviously gave you zero insight into the charedi world. There are countless women, both in this country and in Eretz Yisrael who successfully navigate frum and secular workplaces with strong foundations in Halacha and Yiras Shamayim. They do so together with their husbands, whom they often support in Kollel and based on the advice of their Poskim, with whom they frequently consult. Perhaps it doesn’t fit your small-minded worldview but it’s a daily reality.
Why don’t you worry about your own ruchnius and let them worry about theirs. They’re probably doing much better than you are.
yeshivaguy,
Due to Joseph’s “first hand community work on the issue in multiple municipalities”, Philly, Scranton, Long Beach, Denver and the other Lakewood-founded Mesivtas will be cancelling secular studies immediately; Not.
N0,
Are you actually accusing those who disagree with you of being untruthful?
N0,
Troubled children can result from lack of direction as well as learning disorders, emotional difficulties, dysfunctional families, poverty, abuse and other issues.
The yeshiva system exists to address the educational needs of all boys to prepare them for life, regardless of their challenges. The same is true of the educational system for girls. When the system cares more about promoting itself by being elitist, exclusionary and leaving children out, they are abrogating their mission. Unfortunately, too many parents blindly trust the system to raise the next generation and are unavailable when their children need guidance.
N0,
Once again, name the Mesivtas in Lakewood proper that currently offer High School secular studies with a full diploma. Also, boys are pushed to become white collar bachurim, not the blue collar teens whom the system could care less about.
N0,
It is very relevant. A struggling thirteen year old who knows there’s only one seemingly unachievable option in life is going to become hopeless, angry and quite possibly violent.
Joseph,
How enlightening. The persona you constantly display of never having stepped out of a very small area of Brooklyn must be due to your deep feelings of modesty and humility.
You have three wives, eighteen children, you’re a nuclear engineer and a chip designer, plus you give shiurim and answer halachic queries over the phone. How do you find the time to be so active as a volunteer in multiple communities?
Joseph,
Better look up that word in a dictionary. You once again proved by example that High School secular studies is a vital component of being a well-adjusted frum Jew in this country.
N0,
So giving struggling boys zero options in life aside from learning full time has nothing to do with their hopelessness, anger and violence?
N0,
Once again, which Mesivtas in Lakewood proper still offer High School secular studies?
N0,
Not true. There are plenty of Lakewood parents who independently educate their sons in High School secular studies or send them out of town to Philly, Long Beach, Scranton, etc.
Whether it was formally banned or all the Mesivtas decided together to stop offering them is just semantics.
N0,
Which Mesivtas in Lakewood proper still offer High School secular studies?
Joseph,
Yet, for more than fifty years after he was niftar Lakewood did have High School secular studies. Until the “experts” decided to forbid it but to continue allowing restaurants. They probably realized the now bored and even violent teens would need places to hang out and cause trouble.
guteyid,
Harav Aharon Kotler, zt”l, was niftar over half a century before High School secular studies became forbidden. He also didn’t want any restaurants in Lakewood but the “experts” don’t seem to care about that one, do they?
chaim_baruch,
You’re right, but the experts running Lakewood who forbade High School secular studies also don’t believe in any of those options and are now reaping the results of their myopia.
N0,
Great news! It’s been obvious for many months that the Rabbonim of Lakewood have no control over the violent teens in their community. Any friendly gestures have been met with mockery and scorn. Maybe these animals will get scared straight when the police crack down on them.
Joseph,
How did it taste?
AAQ,
Kol Torah in Bayit Vegan is indeed a beautiful yeshiva but the story with R. Yaakov, zt”l actually took place during his visit to Kol Yaakov in Bayit Vegan, the yeshiva founded by R. Adess.
Dorah,
Your persistent defense of Brainless Brandon by comparing him to someone no longer in office is growing more lame than he is. Your hypocrisy really shows when you cast your “boomerang curse” on Jews for wishing ill on politicians while you do the same thing yourself.
Do you get paid by the word or are you just wasting your life for nothing?
Dorah,
I’m surprised that your belief in what goes around comes around still allows you to freely wish harm on others with impunity, as you posted several weeks ago. Are you so blind to your own hypocrisy?
Dorah,
I’m familiar with the classic horror film and understood it was a political analogy. Given the death wish you issued several weeks ago and the “boomerang curse” you have threatened others with, you should be more careful with your own choice of words.
Dorah,
First you wish death upon someone and now you call people “the living dead”? right back at ya!
Avaira,
I’m completely frum, I learned in Yeshiva and Kollel for years, I have several daily sedorim and make a siyum every year.
You’re so insecure and filled with self-loathing that you use what little learning you have as a weapon to hurt other Jews. You clearly don’t belong in a classroom and one of these days your hatred will put an end to your teaching career.
Avaira,
Who appointed you to highlight the faults of a specific group of Jews then brand those as “institutionalized”? There have been too many incidents of legal/financial wrongdoing in Chasidic and Yeshivish communities over the past few years to ignore. Yet there has been scant public outcry from Rebbeim, Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim. Should we conclude that such wrongdoing has been “institutionalized”, that these leaders tolerate and even encourage such behavior?
Avram,
No single group of Jews has an “exclusive mantle of victimhood” and none deserves this kind of bashing. My point was that this thread became open season on a specific group and the worst bashers would react with righteous indignation if their group was in the gunsights.
Avaira,
I have visited many communities in the U.S. and also in other countries. Yeshivish, Chasidish, Yekke, Sfardi, Chabad and others too varied to be labeled. They all have tremendous strengths and they all have challenges, sometimes daunting ones. I’ve seen numerous MO communities over the past thirty years and the sheer growth in their learning, attention to mitzvos, pursuit of truth and generosity towards all Jews is remarkable.
Ungrateful people such as yourself can be supported by a community, pretend to love them, then spend every spare minute condemning them for their faults. I get it; you grew up MO, are still insecure and immature so you’re compelled to bash them incessantly. But the same can be done to any group of Jews and it accomplishes nothing. You feel that MO threatens Jewish continuity and that it’s holding back Mashiach but in reality it’s hateful behavior like yours that’s doing so.
Joseph,
I simply complied a list of all the loving things you and Avaira had to say about MO. You seem a bit defensive, why is that?
You consider R. Lazer Ginsberg to be on par with the Gadol Hador, Harav Aharon Kotler, zt”l? He’s not my Rav and I’m not bound by his psak. I certainly don’t have to respect what he wrote in the neighborhood rag “for the benefit of the community”.
Yserb,
It sounds just like one of the infamous YW trolls!
To review all we’ve learned, mostly from Avaira’s logical and loving posts, Modern Orthodoxy:
– looks similar to conservative Judaism
– is mechallel almost everything in the Torah
– has open synagogue parking lots on Shabbos
– has almost no Torah knowledge at all
– accepts feminism, evolution, pritzus, LGBT
– are stragglers who contribute neither Torah nor gemilus chasadim
– represents illegitimate judaism and fake jewish values
– is robbing Jewish children of avodas Hashem and olam haba
– are ignorant sinners with anti torah philosophies
– are moving more to the samech mem
– is like how the Arizal writes that goyim have no tzad tov at all
– is born of haskalah and its leaders were all soaked in it
– is practically all going OTD
– presents the greatest ideological threat to the continuity of JudaismIn addition:
– there’s not one goyishe value they haven’t taken steps towards
– they almost all go mixed swimming
– their phone usage in shul is geferlach
– their davening during the week is too fast to schmooze
– their chesed turns into znus
– they purposely hire rabbis who won’t criticize their lifestylesThis is all the fault of their fake rabbinic leadership who:
– encourage institutionalized ignorance, heresy and sinfulness to thrive
– are desensitized to multi-generational violations of torah
– are too afraid to call out the dangerous liberal elementsSo which group of Jews should get bashed next, Yeshivish or Chasidish?
Joseph,
“It makes many errors. Including on common secular subjects.”
So do you.
Avaira,
I can rewrite your puk chazi post for every real or imagined breach in Chasidic and Yeshivish communities. What’s particularly galling is your unending stream of hatred towards those who put food on your table. Don’t be so quick to think a charedi school would hire an insecure flip-out with a big chip on his shoulder and a constant need to prove something.
Avaira,
According to logic:
The crooks, who are mechallel almost everything in Choshen Mishpat are a large majority of the Chasidic population, whereas the law-abiding are a distinct minority of the Chasidic population. That’s certainly the case with the national/international Chasidic communities. But even within moderate sects the swindlers significantly outnumber the law-abiding.
common,
There will be no lawsuit since the mother did nothing wrong by calling for help. NYPD and Shomrim did nothing wrong by reacting quickly to the situation when called. The chasid was the only one who did anything wrong by foolishly touching someone else’s child so he’s the only one who was charged.
As clueless as the chasid is abut the world, your fantastical legal proceeding indicates that you’re even more so. You’re not displaying much common sense.
common,
The multi-million dollar lawsuit trial would last five minutes:
Q: “Why did you touch the child?”
A: “I wanted to pass between two women in a manner allowed by Jewish Law”
Q: “Couldn’t you have done so holding a cell phone or some other object?”
A: “Yes, but I decided to make up my own stringency and use someone else’s kid instead”
The chasid might then also have to deal with the consequences of bringing a frivolous lawsuit in addition to the two remaining charges on his police record and a tanked reputation.
Avaira,
“As for it being a problem by chasidim…you say you’ve seen “posts” about it – don’t be a pesi maamin lechol davar, especially with what you see online”
So one is a fool for believing negative posts about chasidim but your constant stream of negative posts about MO is Torah MiSinai?
common,
The chasid’s clueless behavior which resulted in charges on his police record ensures that such a lawsuit would go absolutely nowhere. The camera may have saved him from a worse fate but it shows he touched the child and the court would have no sympathy for the foolish way he chose to implement halacha.