frumnotyeshivish

Health: you said “amongst going to many other schools . . . .” Elementary or High Schools?

WIY: Medical need? Really? Tattoos cure cancer, I guess…

It has happened. It could be. Because the challenges are even greater for a frum mother, my assumption is that the OP would’ve mentioned it were that the case.

Moshe Rabeinu was wrong a few times. Amram his father never sinned, yet made a mistake in divorcing his wife.

Of course a Rishon can be wrong!

We are just so much wronger.

If your reason for wanting to go to Touro is that it is a quick decent degree, it might work. There are quicker degrees (using yeshiva credits which I’m assuming you have) and better degrees out there but probably not both.

If you are thinking about going to Touro because you wish to minimize your exposure to the ugliness of the world then med school may not be the way you eventually want to go. Even if it is, Touro may limit your med school options, causing you to move to a place that is likely far worse for your ruchniyus.

Why not go to a “real” college? It might be cheaper (if you are smart enough for med school, you should be smart enough to get into a good school at less than full price), and it will almost certainly give you a better, more usable education that will help you decide want you really want to do.

Princeton, Columbia, NYU, Penn, Yeshiva, Fordham, Rutgers, College of NJ, and Stevens are all comparable commutes or better from Lakewood, and all will provide a far more valuable degree than Touro. If you choose not to go to med school these degrees would translate to more opportunities.

As far as whether Doctors make a decent living, the answer is yes. There is a shortage of primary care physicians, and the government will even subsidize part of the cost of med school for those who agree to be a physician in an area with a shortage. That area might not have a minyan though.

Some doctors are obscenely rich. Many more aren’t.

Obamacare makes it more likely that any given patient has insurance which makes it more likely that a doctor will at least get paid.

I’d be more worried about technological advances that lessen the need for human doctors or government intervention far more drastic than Obamacare.

The current system seems unsustainable. Medical care is a necessity that anyone feels they must pay for, but the price is really insane. IMHO it is fundamentally wrong that so many people make so much money off of medicine. In a sense it is taking advantage of desperate people.

True, some of the money drives healthcare quality up, but to argue that the reason so many can take such a large cut off of someone else’s cancer or senility is for the patient’s benefit seems to only works up to a point. We’re at least approaching that point.

If money is your only motivation, successful careers in finance or business are doable for talented and motivated (and some might say soulless) people.

Although the future is in technology, particularly in biotech (although biotech may have some of the same concerns as the medical field generally), the managers of a company make more than the employees with the technical training, and no one makes more than the savvy investor.

There are also easier ways of making a decent living (think [biomedical] engineering).

In summary, if you really want to become a Doctor (not just for the money), can make it as a Doctor, and want to remain in an area of your relative choosing (which is a pretty strong need for a frum jew), you need to distinguish yourself. This is difficult enough with a good college degree, and even harder with one from Touro. It is doable though, and an admirable career choice if done for the right reasons.

I do think R’ Moshe has a tshuva where he says not to do it. It was easier to find a decent job without a degree then, true, but if I remember correctly he was against the amount of time it would take to do relative to other jobs. Caveat: the tshuva was for a younger person who didn’t need parnassah at the time. It seemed R’ Moshe had a hard time justifying becoming a Doctor for the sake of parnassah in ten years. Don’t have the mareh makom offhand.

Whatever you do, good luck, and daven!

Writersoul – I think you are wrong about the stigma. A smoker in Yeshiva isn’t embarrassed about it. An alcoholic in Yeshiva is terrified that people will know about his problem (if he has one).

I don’t consider occasional drinking a problem.

OneDay – Anti-anxiety meds are far, far more addictive than tobacco. They also cause less cancer and they have more productive uses. If anti-anxiety meds were available over the counter, their abuse would be rampant.

As far as whether smoking to reduce anxiety is okay, a cost-benefit analysis is in order. This requires knowledge of the cost of smoking (in terms of health, possibility of forming a habit, money etc.) vs. the benefits — like every substance on earth.

Bottom line – unless a substance is both obscenely addictive and dangerous (think heroin, meth, crack etc.) there may be times when they have a productive use. Therefore, a cost-benefit analysis is always in order.

Only an insane (or irrational) person would choose not to take something which has more benefit than cost. Period.

The real question is what’s the cost and what’s the benefit…

I think focusing on alcohol is taking the focus away from what the alcohol abusers want to escape from. That happy, productive, and otherwise healthy people don’t begin abusing alcohol, is my overwhelmingly strong presumption.

While we may hear some claimed anecdotal exceptions, I know better. I do. Prove me wrong.

WIY – your original premise: “It seems that a husband is obligated to make his wife happy. Meaning without him she wouldn’t be happy.”

It seems that the truth of the premise would depend on how one defines happiness and/or the word “vesimach”.

Is happiness finite?

Could vesimach mean to make happier?

If say happiness came from feeling fulfilled, wouldn’t there be an objective and subjective measure of it, much like life itself?

If my last hypothesis is correct, a way of fitting psychology into the truth that is the torah would be as follows:

Subjectively, any person can find their mission and accomplish whatever they can. Feeling fulfilled is a result of actually doing whatever you were able to do, wherever and whoever you are.

However, if a person is blessed enough to be in a situation where their mission is truly objectively big (say a person is moshiach), the happiness of feeling fulfilled after such a huge accomplishment would be far greater.

A woman who is married (to a deserving man), says the torah, is in a position to objectively accomplish more, and therefore objectively feel a more intense fulfillment.

This was completely speculative and perhaps gibberish.

The question is not so much of the capabilities of women, the question is what is the mission women were created to do?

For the answer, we have Chazal and Mesorah.

It is not that women want to be men; it’s that women are looking at men and think “it’s not fair.”

Either it is fair, or it’s not supposed to be. Those are the only two options that fit with Chazal and Mesorah.

Akuperma, you said: “This is a big issue for goyim, since most western legal systems considering it a valid defense that someone is following orders with a possible exception only of one knows that the orders one is following were also illegal.”

I suppose the possible exception is the fundamental issue. Ignorance of the (clear and valid)law is not an excuse both in the religious and secular context. There is also a presumption of knowledge of the law.

In Germany, the law of following orders unconditionally may have been inherently tyrannical and therefore unbinding(see our declaration of independence for rationale).

The only real questions arise when 1. there is a disagreement as to the content of the law, or 2. the question isn’t whether the law was technically violated, rather, whether we found the right scapegoat. Receiving orders going against the law may be a mitigating excuse as to the punishment but don’t (in a civilian context) justify violation.

As far as whether the chain of command in a military context requires the soldier to follow orders unquestioningly, there are laws about that too. Soldiers are taught what they may or may not do. So long as the (secular) laws don’t violate basic principles

of decency (and/or the constitution), the law always trumps all.

In summary, the law always takes precedence, in every context, unless the law is fundamentally flawed.

Yserbius – two different issues, and I quote myself: “No guarantees of clean content in these books.”

1. I’m not sure if I ever said one is worse than the other.

2. I’m not sure if I believe one is worse than the other.

3. Adams seems to me to write more rationally and intellectually and Pratchett seems far better at painting pictures and emotions.

4. Perhaps emotional kfira scares me more. Fear, after all, is an emotion.

5. My reference to YOUR lack of mentioning HGTTG was because of its physical size, and because I’ve seen you quote it a few times.

6. IDK if I’d have read more than five of DA’s books either.

Squeak: “Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose in your life.”

I would shorten that statement to “Achievement is the purpose of life.” If I would throw in happiness, I would leave out all the subjective words (like “your happiness” and “your life”).

I was joking about the spelling. Greasy means having to do with grease, with grease meaning lubrication.

It this context it’s a slur referring to Yeshivsh people who may not shower that much.

Greeci is spelled with two e’s, and I believe the correct term is Greek.

writersoul – it isn’t necessarily an irrational argument; I’d prefer to call it pointing out a vague aspect of what is the most rational explanation for existence.

My proof was that things don’t come from nothing. If this is absolutely true, the only logical conclusion is that there always was something (or nothing, which I won’t address more than by saying that anyone who thinks they don’t exist is someone I couldn’t possibly be talking to).

The problem with the idea that there was always something (other than the expanding universe), is that it fundamentally at the deepest level makes no sense. The question of what came first, the chicken or egg has a strong point. There must have been an egg that didn’t come from a chicken or a chicken that didn’t come from an egg. Well, what did it come from? An evolution based argument may say “something else.” And that? “Something else.” But then what? What is physical matter so as to exist, and what caused it?

The most rational answer is “an entity outside the rules,” or more specifically “an entity not caused by any other entity.”

The next obvious question is what created the entity outside the rules? My entire argument was based on the scientific fact that everything comes from something, so how can I says that there’s an entity that doesn’t come from something?

The answer is, that we can’t/don’t know how it works, it’s beyond science; all we know is that it must be.

While it is true that the atheist’s point that this argument is untestable is valid, better the untestable than the one that fails the test.

Something doesn’t scientifically come from nothing, yet nearly all agree there was once nothing, proving that a power outside science created the something.

Is it possible that in the times of Chazal the Herpes virus was less prevalent in society? Why can’t MBP be healthy unless the mohel has Herpes?

PBA, you said: “If the mohel holds it is required min hadin, he should obviously not ask. If the mohel holds it is not required, then maybe he should. . . . And if they are idiots, then I don’t care anyway.”

What if the Mohel holds it’s required, yet is reasonably certain that the parents wouldn’t consent if they knew. Shouldn’t the Mohel recuse himself at that point? Perhaps mohelim should be breaking into homes to perform milah with MBP on children who otherwise wouldn’t receive it. After all, it’s a chiyuv.

IMHO, a Mohel who goes deliberately against the parents wishes and hurts the child deserves to be locked up for the sake of society. He’s a deliberate idiot, which is far worse than an uninformed idiot.

As far as scientific proof of incidence, all the studies are misleading. The question is whether MBP makes THIS CHILD more likely to get herpes. The answer is, obviously, yes. Next question, how much more likely? Answer: who knows? Any chance of knowing would depend on voluntary participation in an unbiased study. Good luck with that.

Lastly, I’m mostly with PBA on point 3. However, the scope of the reg here makes this gov interference with religion a little more palatable. No one is stopping anyone from doing anything they want to do, as long as they are informed of the potential human sacrifice.

What I don’t like is the dismissive attitude the government has shown for the importance of religion. What bothers me most is that the DOH recommends not to do it, as opposed to informing people of the risks of this important practice (to those that believe it as such).

Bottom line: the risk is real, but may not be as high as the government is saying, and genuine religion may say to do it anyway. The DOH, Savage, and the general public should respect the last part the most.

DY: “We object when certain techniques are used by the tobacco companies…”

That may have once been true. Nowadays, the anti-tobacco people rule the world from the shadows.

If you don’t believe me, just see how they already got so many here (especially “Health,” he’s way gone).

I hate being manipulated by other people. Always.

Chinuch is different though. As it must be.

[This is my first attempt at using a seemingly archaic ui…italics italics please ignore for post to post purposes… now on to my real post:]

Because nothing finite can become infinite, my brain has no idea if what I just said makes sense.

Obfuscation: what politicians try to do but aren’t quite smart enough to pull off.

Ash: explain the benefits that YWN will receive. Do you think they will get more traffic from visitors that otherwise wouldn’t be there? Enough to take on the headache?

It is easy to say “I want.” I want a million dollars. Now what?

Me, but I’m still on the old time.

Is it just me, or does this thread look like every other one out there? “And all I gotta do is act naturally” — Ringo

Health: “Yes, I know cases of ‘Frum’ people being Mezaneh then, but you had to make an effort.”

How are you so in the loop? Is there a “Health Professional” social networking site in which these sensitive topics are shared?

See if you’d be a “Mental Health Professional” like me, I’d understand…