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TAOM,
I’m not sure if I had anything to do with confusing you, but if I did, I sincerely apologize! This may have been slightly naive on my part, but I guess it never quite occurred to me that some of the people reading and writing on this site are children / teens. I would expect to be able to have a respectable debate with an adult, someone who understands fully the reprecussions of the argument. It was never my intention to ruin anyone else. I am not insulting your intelligence, far from it, but you gain a broader perspective as you get older. Stay strong. I sincerely hope you get through whatever it is that’s torturing you! You seem like a good person.
DaasYochid,
“These posters didn’t come with honest questions; they came with false conclusions.”
Well, that’s an oversimplification, isn’t it?
I am not a frequent poster at all, but these topics usually capture my attention. A few months ago, with the “Frum” thread and the “science” thread, some posters wrote some really detailed, well articulated thoughts and opinions, using coherent, logical arguments, practically begging to be proven wrong in their conclusions on religion / emunah. This is a farewell tour, not the place to rehash the arguments. But to say they came with came with “false conclusions” and that the question weren’t “honest” is incorrect.
Just a cynical side point. We can’t go ask kiruv people, or at least I can’t. I don’t make enough money to garner their undivided attention for any meaningful amount of time. Not that it matters, I’ve read most of the responses to most of the issues and questions.
Your question was addressed to those who wear black hats. I guess I can’t answer. Just curious, troll or serious question? Because I’ve yet to receive an intelligent answer on the whole hat thing…
Ben Levi,
I’m a bit uncomfortable arguing the point with you as you were ill and recovered. I don’t want to come across as callous (I’m not). But, again, my point is this. Since most people in your situation would not have pulled through, yet you did, why is there this necessity to attach a “miracle” to your recovery? There are many cases of anomalies, many of which end up being explained. The rest, with research, likely will be. Science makes breakthroughs all the time and explains things that were not previously explainable. What happens when a researcher is able to explain what occurred in your situation? The approach to an unexplained phenomenon is to study it and learn the reason for it, not to insert supernatural to fill the void.
Anonymous1000,
That was a pretty large leap in logic. Assuming you can adequately cause doubt as to why an apple falls, why then would there be a burden of proof to prove that it is not supernatural? The logical conclusion if you were to provide doubt to that premise, would be to further test the hypothesix, or a new one. Why would you insert supernatural to fill the void?
Avram in MD,
Do you realize what youbdid with the eclipse thing? You bent over backwards and resorted to a hypothesis based on the supernatural to try and reconcile science with religion. That seems to be a recurring theme in these threads.
Asssurnet and Avram in MD.
In order to prove his Theory of Relativity (which I will not profess to even begin to understand), Albert Einstein correctly predicted that a complete solar eclipse will occur in May of 1919 and will be able to be observed at a remote location in Africa. Please explain that Gemorah again. Einstein was most definitely not conversing with the all-knowing, all-seeing God, as he was an atheist.
I am late to this thread so I may reference a few eearlier posts….
Benignuman,
On your 3 points above:
1) Tanach is full of prophecies. How would you possibly be able to account for all of of them to verify their legitimacy? So the ones that didnt prove to be true, you would say they just haven’t occurred YET. Also, as Lakewood001 pointed out, these prophesies are sufficiently vague that you can apply them to whatever you want to. (Think of the 70 year exile that was foretold would be after the destruction of bayis Rishon. Mental gymnastics by everyone to decide when the 70 years actually started. By my logic, 70 years is 70 years.) If there was a prophecy that foretold that, if the Jews don’t remain true to God, then on Sept 1, 1939 a war to end all wars will begin and 6 million Jews will systematically be terminated over the next 6 years and 3 years later the Zionists will retake the land of Israel, I’ll buy it. Not vague statements.
2) As you seem to agree yourself, para aduma is not much of an argument.
3) See my post on the frum thread to that thought. There are 900 million Hindus, 300 million Buddhists, 220 million Chinese Traditionalists, as well as many other religions. Is it any more like that THEY were the ones who were fooled? Couldn’t have been US, only THEYwere fooled. Weak argument.
Rabbi of Berlin,
I completely agree with you. My point was that it is a perfectly legitimate question for someone to ask. I trust my Rabbi for almost everything else, at what point am I not required to listen? Most people use their Rov for hashkafic issues as well as halachic. That someone would consider this a hashkafic question is not far-fetched.
(For how I truly feel about such matters, see the “frum” thread.)
Shraga18
It is not intellectually dishonest at all, even if you are correct in asserting that the OP may have been misleading.
Let me understand this. It is ok (imperative, actually) to ask your Rabbi your Niddah, kashrus, maaseh umatan, etc., questions because you trust that he can correctly convey the Torah’s opinion on such matters. You choose this Rabbi because his opinion matters to you. You sit, and make your children sit, through his hashkafic discourses because you trust that his hashkafa is correct. Then he gives an opinion in hashkafa / halacha to which you disagree, and you feel comfortable with the notion that you don’t need to listen?! Talk about intellectual dishonesty! Can’t pick and choose.
Since you seem to know, please describe the definition of a “Gadol”. Because odds are that whoever it is that you describe or suggest is not universally accepted as a “Gadol”. Pretty good odds. Noone is universally accepted. So we ALL choose who we listen to for halachic issues and spiritual guidance. I guess it’s safe to say that you don’t hold anyone on that list up to your standards.
DovidZSchwartz,
I don’t want to say anything to you that may be misconstrued as a personal attack. (I mean that.) I have no idea who you are, so I can’t judge you. (Probably shouldn’t even if I knew who you were.)
This is what’s called an open, intellectually honest, discussion. People are free to voice their opinions and beliefs, so long as they are not attacking anyone or causing genuine animosity. As has been stated many times here recently, people who would silence the dissenting voices largely don’t have adequate responses to said voices. If they did, they wouldn’t care to respond.
Huge aveirah. I think it was invented by the Catholic Church to make Yidden sin.
Shticky.
The whole concept of “blame the Jews / kill the Jews” was a Christian invention. The Nazi’s yemach shemam just took it to a different level. It was the culmination of over a thousand years of anti-semitism and hate.
Hmmm… nice troll.
Maybe the Roman Emperor Constatine. I’d like to try and persuade him out of using the guise of Christianity to further his own agenda of power, thereby creating over a thousand years of persecution against heretics (Jews). That decision to popularize Christianity empowered the Catholi Church, thereby leading to all sorts of atrocities against Jews over the centuries. Doubt he would listen though. Wonder if 10 words would do it….
I have the single most controversial opinion in the religious community….
I don’t particularly enjoy Mordechai Ben-David’s music. I know, I know, this is sacrilegious. It’s against one of the most sacred traditions of the past century, but I need to follow my heart. Sometimes I feel like an outcast because of it. I wish people would learn to be more tolerant….
If you think it’s ok to go to football games, you are obviously not a serious Jew! I bet you don’t wear a Black Hat and you maybe even wear Colored Shirts (!!!). Let me guess, you think it’s ok for women to not sit on the back of the bus too. Shameful!
“I am waiting to hear condemnation from major Hareidi and Chassidish leaders and poskim.”
adams: So true! I am not a hater, I’m really not, but this is ridiculous! These people operate under the PRETENSE of “L’sheim Shomayim” and “believe” that this kind of behavior is sanctioned according to the Torah. Where are their community leaders and Rabbonim to put an end to this? Call them out publicly. Isolate them. Publicly state that this is NOT what the G-d wants!
Of course that will not happen…. And this is why I’ve become so cynical…
“Rashi wore whatever the headcovering and dress style yirei shamayim wore in his time.”
Aha…. So who changed from what the Yirei Shomayim wore then? Were they “modern”? Why don’t the Yirei Shomayim today wear what Rashi and those in his time did? At some point the Yirei Shomayim of a generation stopped wearing what the generation before them did. Were they outcasts from the mainstream, like YU? Or maybe they just weren’t “Yeshivish”?
Something to think about….
And since we say “eilu v’eilu…” they’re all correct. 🙂
Pretty funny. Much better answer than I thought I’d get.
This question has been burning inside me for some time now. I hope someone can answer…. Did Rashi wear an up-hat, down-hat, or shtreimel?
DaasYochid
Yes, they determined that it was necessary to have more people learning to maintain sprituality.
Now, I’ve been known to be a little cynical, but I know FIRSTHAND that the a large amount (and I think I’m being nice) of people learning in Kollel that, while they may be nice people and maybe even very sincere, they are wasting a LOT of time. Their are so reliant on other people, and for what? There is no shame on making an honest living and being Kovei’ah Itim. That is why the Daf Yomi system and countless other programs were invented. It is an unnatural thing to be able to study for 10 hours a day. Very few people from ANY walk of life or culture have the ability to do it. I believe that most of these “time-wasters” feel they have no chice. The Yeshivos promote Kollel (yes, almost ALL “mainstream” Yeshivos do), the girls want to marry ‘Learning Guys”. We all know people who are thosands and thousands of dollars in debt by the time they are 30-35 yrs old, with little to no hope of getting out of it!
So yes, Kollel should not be mainstream. Promote people learning to support themselves alongside learning. As so many people have already said here, the system will collapse if so many keep relying on the kndness of others to support them. Forget keeping up a luxurious lifstyle, most Kollel families can not keep up ANY lif-style.
No answer. Completely agree>
Just to build on your question ANONANO, WHY do we expect boys to learn in Kollel until they are in their 30’s? Why do we expect boys to learn in Kollel at all?? What ever happened to the concept of supporting yourself and your family. Kollel shouldn’t be mainstream!! It should be for a few, exceptional people who are the next Gedolei Hador, as it’s been for the past 2000 years.
(I’m going to stop before I lose it.)
msseeker:
????????? ?? ????. Really? So in the early part of the 20th century when most people in Western Culture wore Fedoras every day, then ALL Jews were acting “BeChukos Hagoyim”. And the Roshei Yeshiva who wear “up hats” are wearing the hats worn by aristocrats in early 20th century. I guess the old Roshei Yeshiva were guilty as well. How far back do you want to take this? The Rebbe’s wore shtreimel’s because that was the noble dress in Poland. If you looked at a Polish Noble on a hunt in the 1830’s, he was dressed as a Rebbe. Rashi wore French clothing. Rambam wore Egyptian. There is NO “Jewish” dress. This whole “white shirt, black hat” business is a NEW phenomenon. I’m sure you mean well by saying that, but it’s a silly argument.
Wearing white shirts is the single most important principle of religious Judaism. One might think that wearing a black fedora is more important, but that’s not the case. What is most important in that area is to make sure to wear an outdated form of headgear. Fedora, shtreimel, or any such item will do. As far as white shirts, it is of such importance that a child can be disallowed from a Yeshiva for not adhering to it. Rash”i and the Vilna Gaon, Ramba”m, and all the Tannaim and Amoraim etc… OBVIOUSLY wore white shirts only! We must adhere to these two most important halachos at all times!
I have a question. It’s a bit cynical, but very true.
If this was what G-d had in mind, that all people should study Torah at all times, living off the generosity of others, how then would anyone survive? If all people were participating in full-time Torah study, who then would be making money to support those who study Torah?? And please don’t say the women; women in the workforce is a relatively new phenomenon. Up until the industrial revolution (and really much longer), women stayed home with children and took care of the home. This was not demeaning, just that all livelihood came from working the fields and other forms of heavy physical labor. And even in today’s society, most families require both spouses to work in order to make ends meet.
This whole concept of Kollel is brand new and for some reason is completely overblown. Only the MOST studious, sincere, and capable people are really worthy of public funds to support them so that they can study Torah. There is no shame in working for an honest living. Rabbi Tarfon and Rabbi Yehuda Hanassi were two of the wealthiest people to ever live. Those are just the first two to come to mind, but there are COUNTLESS others who are from the greatest Jews in history and worked an honest living while still transforming themselves into Gedolei Hador. Learning in Kollel for the satisfaction of OTHERS is silly and ultimately counter-productive. What is wrong with being on the other side of the equation, working to make a living, be a righteous Jew, and help support those who are willing to make the sacrifice?
It’s better to be part of the solution than the problem.
Just saying.
I was actually thinking of a response to this, then I realized the truth: this post is obviously a joke. Because there’s no way someone is actually worried about his/her chances of marriage due to the fact that a family member chose not to live their life off the system… This was obviously written just for reactions. Well done though, it worked.