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November 18, 2012 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm in reply to: "Your not mechuyav to do it altz hishtadlus but you can do it if you want to…" #911466fluffyandcrunchyMember
So a summary of the way I see it, with a partial possible answer to my original question (thanks to you all):
I think we all MUST do a certain amount of hishtadlus.
There are those that are exempt from “normal levels” of hishtadlus and can just do minimum amounts of hishtadlus.
It seems to be a sliding scale depending on your [not sure here:] righteousness?+emunah?+bitachon?+societal-norms? etc.
I am unclear if there is consensus to this but I personally feel: Hashem can figuratively look down and say:
Either:
A) “your being a stubborn ox – pretending like you run the show – until you become a bit more humble and leave things up to me to some degree, you will be held back.”
or
B) “your being a fool, pretending like life is all miracles etc. You are supposed to work/not depend on nissim/be “normal”/”bzeias apecha tochel lechem” etc. – you are holding yourself to be some groisah tzadik, and although you are special to me and I love you more than you can imagine, you are not on the madreiga of the many before you who still put in far more effort towards their parnassa/reputation/shidduchim/health/etc.”
….
So like I was flustered about before. It really confuses me when I am offered the option of “it’s not in “chiyuv zone” and it’s not in “forbidden-over-doing-it” zone – it’s in that gray area in between.
How do we define that gray area?
I suggest it may be that: it is just that it’s not an exact science and the Rabbi was saying that my example of “work” was “not universally in “chiyuv zone” but if you feel that you might not be on the madraiga of average person [in this community?] and are nervous that it might be “your personal chiyuv zone” then I would say it’s not so far off that you have to worry that you are moving into “forbidden-over-doing-it” zone….so you can go ahead and do it and not worry.
November 18, 2012 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm in reply to: "Your not mechuyav to do it altz hishtadlus but you can do it if you want to…" #911465fluffyandcrunchyMemberFnotY, if for example you are living in delusion and you think you are R’ Dovid (see previous post) and start acting “frum” at the expense of your yeshiva/family/health etc. – then you are not fulfilling your “chiyuv(im)”.
That’s where the chiyuv plays in.
November 16, 2012 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm in reply to: "Your not mechuyav to do it altz hishtadlus but you can do it if you want to…" #911458fluffyandcrunchyMemberThanks all for the responses. I am going to absorb your thoughts over Shabbos and I think I will need to work this out a bit more but something is still bothering me but not as much….so thanks.
Good Shabbos.
November 15, 2012 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm in reply to: "Your not mechuyav to do it altz hishtadlus but you can do it if you want to…" #911447fluffyandcrunchyMember@Mammele: This is basically the impression I had going in to ask the Rabbi.
So what I was really asking (and I hope this is obvious to him) is “Rabbi, look at me, assess my level to the best you can, and tell me does a simple jew like me, who is a believer but not a tzadik, I have emunah but I also haven’t fully internalized like tzaddikim have…..me….What level of hishtadlus would you suppose I should do? Does doing “Y” hishtadlus sound like too much? Should I stop at “X”?
His answer did nothing but confuse me….
November 15, 2012 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm in reply to: "Your not mechuyav to do it altz hishtadlus but you can do it if you want to…" #911446fluffyandcrunchyMember@ JustARegularJew: “I once heard Hishtadlus expressed as follows: You are obligated to do everything you would do if you were a card-carrying atheist.”
Says who?
Doesn’t sound like a kosher hashkafa to me.
November 15, 2012 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm in reply to: "Your not mechuyav to do it altz hishtadlus but you can do it if you want to…" #911445fluffyandcrunchyMember@WIY: “So once you did what most ordinary people would do, to be successful in this thing then you have reached the minimum chiyuv of Hishtadlus. That doesn’t mean you cant do more. Hishtadlus is a minimum.”
The part I am not getting is – what do you mean a minimum? I want the maximum! Which is to achieve my objective.
I don’t want to “upset” G-d by trying to do his job, and I don’t want to do work “for nothing” either.
So if G-d is saying: “My son, I want to give you “A”, it would be really good for you, but you must put in x amount of Hishtadlus first” – – – Then I want to do “X amount of hishtadlus”.
If I did “X” and nothing came and rabbi says “it’s enough” but “do more if you want” – what is he saying?
How can good come out from more hishtadlus then I personally “needed” to do?
p.s. Thanks for compliment on the name 🙂
November 15, 2012 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm in reply to: "Your not mechuyav to do it altz hishtadlus but you can do it if you want to…" #911444fluffyandcrunchyMember@more_2: “If you didn’t understand what he meant then ask him…”
I was nervous someone would ask that. I was trying to be brief so I kept the story short and didn’t fully explain.
I DID say straight out that I don’t understand and he basically repeated himself and I was really blunt and told him it makes no sense to me…I suppose he might have tried explaining more but he had someone waiting for him….so he excused himself and finished the conversation.
Figured the CR chevrah would understand this because it’s a concept that I have heard thrown around before and he looked at me like “why aren’t you understanding what I am saying”
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