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OK, i reread your original post: you are talking about someone else. My apologies
I don’t think it was designed that way, but it sure slipped into that for some. Have you not heard of the wives whose kollel husbands rise late, miss minyan, etc., etc.? There appears to be no accountability in kollel, unless I am misinformed, where they are given regular bechinos on what they learn and required to share their learning
So then what is your issue?
Good shidduch–meaning a wealthy family that will support him in a nice lifestyle (hence no need to work) and/or yichus
The system has been set up that boys end up in kollel if they want to get a good shidduch, regardless of their desire to sit and learn. I am sure there are others who have seen guys who really don’t come across as big learners but it’s kind of what is expected, and for those who choose a different path, they are looked down upon by girls who have been brainwashed in seminary that somehow they need to marry a guy who is learning.
RebYidd, how do you know what MOST of anyone wants, knows, thinks, etc. There is no way to know that. I would agree that looks are a factor, but plenty of people I see are married to very average looking girls, some pretty, some not, some skinny, some otherwise. The joke is the boys seem to have less to offer than what they demand of the girls. Is that Daas Torah?
why you think they would be jealous? My father AH was a rav and believe I would rather he was not.
If i could, i would adopt him and take him out of an atmosphere that it seems he doesn’t like all that much
Holala: I feel for you. It seems you are trapped in a lifestyle that you don’t want to be in. I shudder to think what you are thinking, but alas people from all frum backgrounds, not just rebbish, have been confronted with this problem. One step out of the way and you’re in trouble and you feel as if you do not have a life of your own. Please daven to Hashem for guidance, not for advice here, as some of the posts are making light of the situation. Whatever you decide you need to have the courage of your convictions. Hatzlacha rabbah to you.
Bored: Probably the same as tuition money, where schools hire inexperienced teachers fresh out of seminary. I don’t think they are paying them high salaries.
Shopping: No one said all seminaries are like camp but there are enough out there that are. My daughters went to a serious place and worked hard but there was plenty of fun time as well. Seminary in Israel is a racket. They have limited space but still charge non-refundable application fees that must be lucrative since they can take only a percentage of the applicants. I don’t know how many girls actually want to go to Seminary in Israel for the learning and spiritual experience, but for most people it is a draining expense.
Luna: But you do understand that not everyone does it that way. Not every school gives scholarships and what organizations offer often does not cover even half the cost of the year. So your parents didn’t pay a cent to make it happen?
Notwithstanding the face that my daughters went to Israel for seminary, I agree it is a waste of money and time. They could go to seminary here if they are really interested in learning post-HS. But I don’t agree that this is the cause of a shidduch crisis. Most of my daughters friends with whom they went to seminary together are already married.
Luna: No doubt there are many girls with your experience, but there are many more that it is like summer camp. The curriculum is geared toward those going into chinuch. Sadly, it is peer pressure that has fueled the seminary industry, much to the dismay of parents who can ill afford it. Looking back, do you think your parents owed you that $25,000-plus experience?
apush: I think yours is the common experience.
I don’t want to sound negative but this young woman sounds she has multiple issues and some of the suggestions of mainstream seminaries don’t sound right. Why do you think a 16-year-old should even be in seminary? And switching in the middle of the year sounds like a difficult enough task without even really knowing which way to go, so given her issues isn’t upheaval something that should be avoided? I agree she should discuss with her psychologist what to do.
I have not heard that the fathers are as involved in shidduchim as the boys’ mothers. I have daughters and all the contacts with the boys’ side have been with the mother, which considering a good number of shadchanim are women it stands to reason they would deal with the mother since it wouldn’t be tzniusdik for men to do so. I have heard all the comments, and I have yet to hear from any father friends or otherwise that they are involved in finding shidduchim for their sons, though they are involved in finding shidduchim for their daughters. I have heard so much nonsense attributed to the boys’ mother concerning looks, dress size, etc. They can’t all be made up
I think we need to define what the OP means by ruchniyus. Do people have to wear their ruchniyus on their sleeve for others to behold or is it an internal feeling?
Zahavasdad: To qualify, I think “people” is too general. The working wives certainly have to be concerned with these issues unless they happen to have parents that sustain them and fill in for whatever they themselves don’t earn to make ends meet.
To be unconcerned with gashmius seems wrongheaded. Who then is supposed to be concerned with basic needs? For some reason, the current system of wives supporting makes a joke out of the terms of the kesubah. If the husband doesn’t work, how he can he meet his obligations? Obviously, the husband needs to have some gashmius concerns.
Rocky Zweig is a real middle-age person who in the past has written frequently in the Flatbush Jewish Journal, a free, community newspaper. I guess the editors felt all that he writes is worthy of publication and would devote columns upon columns of space in Letters to the Editor to his musings. More recently, I haven’t seen his name signed that often.
I guess people want to marry someone better than they are. The bigger problem however is the lack of involvementby non-pro shadchanim
DY: Not sure what you mean “raised the bar for everyone.” As far as what? As for “Shouldn’t everyone want to”, I assume you mean wanting to learn. That is the wrong question. Learning is an obligation, but some people don’t enjoy it and don’t want to, and one of the nagging problems in our education system is that those who don’t want to are meant to feel inferior or that there is something wrong with them or that they aren’t as good as Jews as the next person. Not everyone is cut out to sit and learn, either for years or even hours a day, but we all should feel that Hashem loves us each regardless of our choices in learning.
Daas Yachid, so is it your opinion that people who learn in kollel are frummer and better Yidden with better middos than people that don’t? It sounds like it.
Excuse? How about if the husband’s salary isn’t enough for basic necessities plus tuition?
There is something sinister about the question. Even if a person is married, one is entitled to some privacy. My wife never asked and if she wanted to read them, I guess I would let her but I would ask for the content of every phone conversation she has or chat with a friend either.
Yeah, of course. Fiddler on the Roof also caused the shidduch crisis.
Writersoul, you said you would be “thrilled” to marry a kollel guy, but do you want to be in the situation where you don’t get to raise your children? I have heard a few cases recently where the husband insists on continuing in kollel despite the original plan for a certain number of years. Would you like to be in such a situation? Wouldnt you agree that it could have a negative impact on shalom bayis?
I am opposed to children being raised by strangers. However, when two parents are working support themselves, it’s a little different than a situation where a mother has the burden of supporting the family and is deprived of the joy of motherhood when it COULD be different
Tell me what positive aspects do you like best, Daas Yachid? The lakewood method where mothers and fathers transports their infants from one baby sitter to another at a very early age so that Tatty doesn’t have to work and Mommy can’t stay home to raise her kids?
Wolf, they are not sitting and waiting but also don’t want to start with web sites. I have asked them and have not gotten an answer why their friends from both HS and seminary who are married have no shidduch suggestions from them. It’s puzzling.
Big Boy, I didn’t get the impression that poster wanted to give up learning altogether. There are plenty of people who work and have chavrusa, chaburuas, reguar shiurim, etc. As for those who think the system is sustainable, well unless they are waiting for their inlaws and parents to kick off and leave a yerusha, where will they get the money to support their kids who want to sit and learn if they themselves are not making a living on their own?
She is much worse than that but plenty of frum people will still vote for her.
For those of you who say they are in shidduchim, first let me say that just about all the ones we have been in touch with do not call and do not even respond to emails. I have daughters in their 20s in shidduchim, and beli ayin harah they are good girls with good professions. They have not had a dates in months, not even a call. They are not being picky or have some of the demands you post. It saddens me that we have to rely on shadchanim. How many does one need to work with to have at least one take any interest?
The modern-day kollel system is a phenomenon in Jewish history. In the past, people worked and learned. The system is unsustainable and those currently learning full time won’t have the funds to provide a similar lifestyle for the next generation. So, Big Boy, your comment is not helpful. The original poster is right to pursue a career to help support himself and a family. If not him, then who?
It’s a great career choice, but be sure you are scientifically inclined because there is a lot of anatomy and other science to master. It would be especially a plus for you if you speak Yiddish. But of course you do need to find a course of study and really get started soon. I applaud you for having the courage to acknowledge that there is life outside of kollel and it seems you want to be responsible to be able to support yourself and a family. Kol Ha-kavod.
The shidduch crisis is a serious matter and you joke about it. For those of us with children struggling through this parsha, I assure you this isn’t funny. Try to be more sensitive. You never know when the issue will afflict you or someone close to you.
Letaiken, why do you think it sounds weird? Some people have a very easy time expressing love in words, others have a tougher time. Did you feel it was inappropriate for a particular reason? I do think teachers should be more reserved, even when they have a close personal relationship with a student, especially if the reaction may be like yours. But you definitely should not say it back if you don’t feel that way
Parents should respect their kids privacy and should not just show up but should call first. I think the poster should ask her husband to speak to her parents and tell them how much they love when they visit but it would be better to call first.
Understandable moving to the left. According to some, you shouldn’t even be on the Internet, so being on it would kind of make you to the left.
Maybe a person is objectionable for other reasons, but not because of frum aspects. Poster sounds paranoid.
According to posts in a thread on toupees, it sounds like treating baldness would be assur. I have a hard time understanding that psak.