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I still believe that, but I understand his position. And as you can see, no one has banned men from going to any other venues where there are women, unless I missed something.
DaMosher, before people attack you for your comment, with which I agree, many comments here are based on sheer ignorance of what actually goes on in a mixed gym, while yours more accurately reflects the reality. If a gym in the situation you describe is off limits, so should bowling alleys, playgrounds and supermarkets. I sense that misinformation went into the position on the Internet. I don’t know how many of those who have spoken out against it actually have used it but relied on what they were told. As for the comparison to kashrus, these are people who see everything in halachah as black and white and don’t realize there are shades that must be considered.
Mir, you are assuming you know what is right and wrong. When it comes to halachah there are often many shades of gray between the black and white when many factors are explained to a rav. The proper response to the initial post is to ask a rav, presenting it as it applies to the individual. There are many times in my personal life I was surprised at heterim that were given in various circumstances from well-recognized poskim. A psak for one person may not be the same for the next, so those who here have declared assur do not know the original poster’s specific situation that might provide a heter. Some people are so taken by their own knowledge they think they have the answers, and that’s why a forum like this could be dangerous as some may actually begin to listen to some of the views. One cannot say for certain something is not allowed until the entire matter and its ramifications are laid out. Some of you may think you know what the right thing is, but then again, you are not poskim to know what the right psak is.
Jew who cares–your rabbonim would say this coffee room is the right environment?
Daas yachid–I have no way of knowing how many people feel they are not overcome by desire for arayos or gezeila, but if the chazal were talking about the world in general, well, the non-Jewish world doesn’t subscribe to chazal anyway, so it must be that chazal felt Jews have those desires for imposing restrictions. Is that what you are saying?
it’s a simple question, do you have a strong yetzer harah or not for arayos and gezeilah.
Mir talmid–if you want to do the right thing, you shouldn’t even be here since the Internet has been put off limits as well as you identify yourself as a mir talmid. So if you want to do your bid to bring moshiach, then you should be off the internet. Of all the things that are holding back moshiach, somehow mixed gym doesn’t come to mind among the biggest issues, or even an issue. How about sinas chinum, abuse, chilul Hashem by people who make news with their misdeeds, talking during davening? Folks like to make minor issues major because apparently they feel there is nothing else going on in the frum community that is holding back moshiach but for this. Yet I have never heard a lecture or even a psak about mixed gyms as a reason for moshiach not arriving except for someone who want to make it an issue.
do you have a strong yetzer harah for both?
No, I am trying to understand why they would impose a restriction like that if it doesn’t apply unless there is an assumption that all men are predators. Could you explain it?
Git Meshige, you seem to lump everything together. Seems like you would be comfortable among radical Islam.
Why do you assume there is more arayos going on in a mixed gym than in an office where men and women work together? Unless you’ve been to one, how exactly do you know what goes onthere?
I’m trying to understand chazal. And as far as men go, speak for yourself. Sorry, but I don’t crazy every time I see any kind of woman, nor did I ever have any designs on my mother in law. If that’s your issue, well, I can understand the issur.
Why is there an assumption that frum men are always looking for arayos? There is a gemara in Kiddushin that says a young married couple should not live with the wife’s parents lest there be immoral behavior between the son-in-law and mother-in-law? Was that the norm of the time of the gemara to have illicit relationships with forbidden people?
Some would call people who go on the Internet rashaim.
This is not as clearcut as you are making it. If things were so clearcut, all rabbonim would have to do is publish a book of issurim and never have to field a shaila. From your comments, it seems either you never have gone to a gym and are relying on what you think goes on, or you have gone to one that is crowded with both sexes. In addition, a person’s individual situation may come into play, so it’s easy assur anything without knowing all the details. But I would never rely on any psak posted here.
I think you are best to ask a rav and not rely on the comments here.
May I suggest you hook up with someone you can relate to, such as Rabbi Fingerer from the Brooklyn Jewish Experience Center. From your post, it seems you may be lacking a role model who can understand what you’re going through and can be a role model.
If the bachur is working to help support the family, so will he continue to do so once he is married? I would think this type of person would be very rare. In this day and age, there are so many government programs that the parents would not have to require a child to work to help out financially. And if his income is so necessary, how can afford to marry and start his own home?
I sense based on your post that English is not your native language, so may I suggest you reread your posts before hitting the send button. There are girls looking for learners/earners, but it seems that at the very least the earners are making a decent living. Girls who go to Israel for seminary typically are looking for long-term learners but as time goes on, some of them change their outlook and what they want. There are plenty of girls out there looking to get married, and many are educated and making a good living, but I think you would make a better impression if you sounded more educated.
It’s disappointing that this is considered normal, but lying in shidduchim isn’t unusual. Some people will say what they are expected to say and then act otherwise. Sometimes people like the shidduch so they don’t pick up on any red flags. Hard to know what really happened here, but it doesn’t sound like something to get divorced about. However, the wife should keep a keen eye on his behavior to see if anything else he told her were not true. Again, if he is decent, then she should be able to live with it and if i were she, i would not make a big deal over it. People change over time and you can’t hold them to certain thoughts and hashkfas for a lifetime
i would keep mothers of the boys out of shidduchim. From my personal experience, the mothers make the decisions who their sons should date and included in the decision-making is her dress size, the wealth of the family and of course, her beauty. That all seems to negate the middos we try to encourage people to admire and strive for.
But there are rabbonim who asser it in all situationss, which is not at all practical. How many people go online for education courses to avoid mixing with goyim in a school setting? So, is it better for them to go to the classroom? The person who started this thread did not indicate the age of the children, as a far as I can tell, but if he is talking about really young ones, then what’s the question? And for older ones, there are various filters one can install to block content.
BTW, Neut, if you follow DaasTorah, how are you participating in this discussion?
Neut, and what do you suppose happens when the kids leave the house and find the Internet elsewhere? Don’t you think it is wiser to educate them on it and how to use it responsibly? I think it is mistake to think you can shield children from the world, because when they get out there and don’t know what they’re facing, the outcome could be even worse. I am not saying you need to expose them to all this, but at least educate them before they find out things for themselves.
What is not realistic is to believe that you can ban the Internet when so many people make their parnassa from it. It is often said it is easier to assur something than to understand why some is allowed. The fact that you are here, as well as all the others who post, just proves that you are ignoring the ban on the Internet anyway, so why be so self-righteous about it? Why does Yeshiva World even exist if we’re not supposed to have the Internet? Why do so many other frum websites exist if someone out there didn’t believe that the Internet is a vehicle for good. I am sick and tired of the folks who claim to be following daas Torah and then end up posting here.
Neut, when the rabbonim called for the ban, I suspect it was based on what people told them rather than first-hand experience.
Everything can be viewed either as a test or a gift. Someone asked a well-known rav (and I was present) about whether one is permitted to eat kosher food that is made to resembler non-kosher. The rav responded that if Hashem gave the chochmah to create, who are we to deny using it. Each person has to known for himself what is a test, but I don’t know how one can generalize with the Internet. There are people who just cannot control themselves when it comes to the Internet, or alcohol, or gambling. For those of us who do not have the taiveh, are these tests? Same with Internet with kids. You raise them and guide them how to responsible, maybe they can use it without the dangers.
Hashem gave the chochmah, the wisdom, to create the Internet just as He gave the chochmah to develop life-saving drugs and other aspects of our lives that are positive. Rather than ban the Internet, instruct your children how to use it responsibly. I think the problems arise when people who have been deprived of it suddenly discover it and just don’t know how to deal with it. By separating themselves completely from the outside world, they are as ill prepared as children who have not been vaccinated and are open to disease. No one can deny there are problems out there, but you pretty have much to look for trouble; better to learn what’s right and wrong rather than reject this gift from Hashem.
The New Seminary creates a cohort of frum students, but the experience may depend on the institution. I have heard that a lot of young women go through the nursing program through Adelphi but there has been unhappiness with the professors assigned to this group, which tend to be inferior to the main Adelphi. The New Seminary administration also seems to be pretty ineffectual in dealing with issues confronting the cohort though it tries.
Jewish music seems to reflect the particular society in which it arises. Hence, in the U.S., American pop music has a strong influence while in the middle east it has more of a flavor from that region. Unfortunately, secular music is often ripped off (with or without permission of the copyright holder) with new, Jewish-oriented lyrics applied. I guess that makes it Jewish. In terms of Jewish style, much of Jewish music is composed in minor keys, though there are many of nigunim that sound like marches that even if composed by a frum person, is obviously influenced by the surroundings.
Many a young woman will come to New York for dating. Does your friend object to doing that?
I’ve been following this thread and notice on one of the frum dating cites these terms appear often. (I am looking on behalf of my daughter). Quite honestly, whether its modern yeshivish or MO machmir, it’s almost like the difference between partly sunny and partly cloudy. I prefer the distinction between yeshivish and balabatish, and if I had to make a distinction, the former includes guys who must always dress in white shirts and wear a black hat when going out, even not during tefilah, while balabatish are frum but more worldly as they are aware of what goes on in the outside world but because of frum concerns, avoid them.
Kosher Gym’s problem wasn’t just the lack of members, but it seems it expanded too much without really having a need for it, and moved to a less central location where parking was very difficult. It also promised things it did not deliver, such as a pool. It seems Kosher Delight may have similarly suffered from doubling its size but not having the customers to fill it in a location with very expensive rent. I think there are more banks than nail salons in the neighborhood. Who else could afford the rent?