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This is an old timer account.
No, it’s not Feif Un, it’s DaMoshe. I told him the site was redesigned, and I wondered if his ban transferred over. He gave me his login info to check. Looks like his account was unlocked! I’ll have to let him know.It’s not real filet mignon. They cut another piece of beef to look like filet mignon, but it’s not the same meat.
There are a few people who do nikkur on the meat, but they are mostly in Israel. They get hired mostly by restaurants. It’s extremely difficult to get it raw so you can cook it yourself.
DaasYochid: I hope not!
I think I once wrote this here before, but I’ll post it again.
My wife was living in Israel, but had come to the US to date. We started going out, and we hit it off pretty quickly. Then I discovered she’d never had the Dor Yesharim testing done. We didn’t know what to do. We liked each other and knew it was heading towards our getting engaged – should we wait for her to get tested? She called her father in Israel, and he went to ask R’ Chaim Kanievsky. R’ Chaim answered him, “You know, I never got tested by Dor Yesharim either!” My FIL replied, “Ok, but what should they do? Should they wait?” R’ Chaim said, “No, she shouldn’t get tested. I give them a bracha that all their children should be healthy!”
I’m not a fan, but I don’t sit around bashing him here. Also, Avi Weiss is in a different category than Modern Orthodox rabbonim. Rabbonim from all sides have said his shittos go against Judaism and may even be apikorsus. I haven’t heard a Rav say that Modern Orthodoxy is apikorsus.
Oh please. I’m not a fan of Avi Weiss or Dov Lipman. They’re not Modern Orthodox – Weiss claims his “derech” is called Open Orthodoxy.
But what about posts like this:
Sam2: Regarding R’ Tendler, yes, he’s controversial at times. So was R’ Ovadia Yosef zt”l, and many other Rabbonim. The fact remains that he’s a huge talmud chacham, and deserves respect. With all the controversy around him, I’ve still never heard a Rav say anything personal about him – but there’s plenty of it here!
DaMoshe told me that a few years back, he actually was speaking to his Rosh Yeshiva, R’ Bender shlita, and he complained to him about the lack of respect here on YWN for R’ Tendler. R’ Bender sent out an email to someone who works for YWN who he’s close with, telling him to tell YW Editor to stop the lashon hara against R’ Tendler! (In case you’re wondering, DaMoshe was bcc’d on the email, so he saw it.)
Once again, the mods show the double standard that is on this site. People have written the same thing I wrote, just about people like R’ Kook zt”l, R’ Tendler shlita, and others, and it got through no problem. But I can’t write it about R’ Yoel!
sharp: The Rebbe transgressed an issur d’oraysa! Judging people differently based on their background is something that is written straight out in the Torah!
I once wrote before about another Rebbe I had in that yeshiva who did a lot of wrong to me. I actually wrote a letter to him a few years ago about it, and he apologized. The Rebbe I mentioned in this thread, however, never gave me an apology.
When I was young, I was once accused of doing something by another kid in the class. This kid’s father was a Rebbe in the yeshiva. Not only was I falsely accused, the kid asked some friends of his to lie and back up his story. I denied doing it, of course, and I was sent to the kindergarten class for a few days until I’d admit to doing it.
After a few days, one of his friends admitted to the Rebbe that he’d lied, and was asked to lie by the main accuser. I was brought back into class – without any apologies from anyone. I asked the Rebbe why I didn’t get an apology from the kid, and why he wasn’t being punished, and I was told to just sit down. I said, “He’s not being punished because his father is a Rebbe in the yeshiva. He gets off scot-free because of that, while I wrongly sat in kindergarten for a few days? That’s not right!”
I was then kicked out of class again because of my chutzpah.
This wasn’t the only issue I had with that yeshiva. The best part is, a few years ago they called me to ask for money. I told them to go somewhere very hot.
Feif Un and others who are wondering why their posts are not approved, please reread YWN Coffee Room Posting Rules. The applicable ones are:
Loshon Hara and other inappropriate speech
2 – Loshon Hara will not be tolerated at all. We are not and will not become Lashon Hara central (keep this in mind when starting a thread).
4 – Understand that this site is called The Yeshiva World and use appropriate expressions. Do not try to slip in double meanings. Understand what is typed is not always what is read (tone).
Mod 127
HakunaMatada: The Gra was not your typical Jew. 99% of Jews worked a full time job to support their families. There was no such thing as a kollel. It was only the best and brightest who learned full time. The whole kollel system, with thousands sitting and learning, is a modern thing.
As for Modern Orthodoxy, you say that things you mentioned aren’t done in chareidi circles, but are done in MO? You think MO people aren’t careful in halacha but chareidim are? Like the chareidim who covered up for child molesters? Or chareidim who are sent to prison for fraud? A chassidish rebbe was found guilty of fraud a few years ago, and was then a speaker at a meeting on business ethics! He was shown as a shining example of someone who did teshuva – just a few months after being found guilty! It’s like getting someone to speak to alcoholics, saying, “You can kick the habit, I’ve been sober for 2 days now!” You think chareidi women are always tznius? They why do I always hear people complaining about a lack of tznius in Lakewood? You think chareidim don’t watch movies? Please. I have relatives who are chareidim. One is a Rebbe in a yeshiva. He once asked me if I had any good movies he could watch on his computer, since he doesn’t have a TV in his house. I’ve seen chassidim in movie theaters. I’ve written here before that my wife and I went through fertility treatments. One year, we attended the A TIME shabbaton. The Shabbaton is about 99% chassidim. When we were checking out, there was a chassidish family ahead of us on line. They were asked to pay a balance on their room. The Shabbaton was supposed to have been sponsored, and shouldn’t have cost anything. What was the charge? I heard the woman at the desk tell them (they asked her what it was for.) The couple had ordered a movie to watch late on Friday night (yes, on Shabbos!). And not just a regular movie – a movie that nobody should be watching!
The fact is that every group does wrong. Modern Orthodox people are extremely stringent in halacha. Maybe we don’t take on crazy chumros like chareidim do. It doesn’t mean we aren’t careful about halacha. I don’t think right-wing is better than centrist or left-wing. It’s just different. There are 70 correct paths. Not everyone is on the same one you are. Deal with it.
When I became frum again, I did some kiruv work, for NCSY. Here’s an interesting story that happened:
I was working as an adviser on the Spring Regional Shabbaton. On Sunday, they took us to a park, and there were all sorts of sports games being played. I dressed for playing ball, meaning I was wearing a t-shirt. It had the logo for my favorite band (Metallica) on it.
I was at the basketball court, taking a break from playing, when I heard my name being called. I saw one of the kids coming over to talk to me. He was about 14-15 years old at the time. His family was not very observant, and he was in public school. He said to me, “Wow, nice shirt! You’re a Metallica fan?” I replied that I was. “Wow… I never would have thought you were a fan!”
Me: “Why not?”
Kid: “Well, I saw you on Shabbos. You were wearing a suit, with a white shirt. By davening this morning, you had on a nice button-down shirt and a jacket. You didn’t seem like a cool guy – you just seemed like a religious guy. But now it looks like you’re not that religious, you’re cool!”
Me: “Why can’t I be both religious AND cool?”
Kid: “Well, I thought they don’t really go well together?”
Me: “Well, you just said I’m both. Doesn’t that show you otherwise? You can be a good, observant Jew and still be cool!”
Him: “Yeah, maybe you can. I need to think about this!”
At the end of the Shabbaton, he asked me for my phone number so he could keep in touch. On Erev Shavuos, I was taking a small nap to prepare for the night of learning, when I was awakened by my phone ringing. It was the kid from the Shabbaton. “Hi, Feif? It’s <kid’s name>. I just wanted to call you to wish you a good Chag. I also wanted to let you know something. I thought a lot about what we spoke about on the Shabbaton. I decided to give it a try. I signed up for an all-night learning session tonight through NCSY, and I’m going to try it for the first time!”
I was elated! I congratulated him, and wished him a good Yom Tov.
I saw him the next year at Shabbatons again a few times. Then I got married and stopped doing the NCSY work. I was told by a friend who was still doing it that the boy ended up switching to a yeshiva, and leaving public school. He ended up going to yeshiva in Israel for a few years also.
Honestly, I have no idea where that boy is now. But I still marvel at what happened because I wore a Metallica t-shirt to play basketball one day.
eclipse: I don’t like people who are pretenders, whether they pretend to agree with me or disagree with me. Pretending is pretty much the same as lying, and I don’t like people lying to me.
I think people should be able to accept others ideas and practices as legitimate, even if they don’t always agree with them. For the most part, Modern Orthodox and Chareidi Judaism are very much in sync as far as their beliefs go. Both keep the “major” mitzvos (Shabbos, kashrus, taharas hamishpacha). If you walk into my (Modern Orthodox) shul, you’ll see shiurim going on every night, people learning with chavrusos, etc. There are 3 daf yomi shiurim given every day. Yet some people have this idea that Modern Orthodoxy doesn’t value learning Torah! It’s unfortunate that in many yeshivos, they are taught that YU is an evil place, where people aren’t frum at all! I once was brainwashed into that belief, and luckily realized how untrue it is.
I do think there are certain sects of Judaism that are doing things wrong. In some cases, it’s the beliefs of the sect itself, such as meshichist Lubavitch or Avi Weiss and YCT. In other cases, I think the beliefs behind the scenes are fine, but a huge percentage of a sect has taken things to extremes that are wrong, and it’s more the actions than the actual beliefs. In these cases, I can accept the beliefs as legitimate (even if I don’t follow them), but still decry the actions (such as people attacking women who aren’t dressed to extra-machmir standards).
I’m not a teen anymore (haven’t been for a long time, I’m in my 30s now), but I did go off and then back on.
For me, it wasn’t either one. In fact, even when I was becoming frum again, I faced opposition from my family, because it wasn’t a brand of Judaism they practice – my family is more chareidi right-wing, and I became Modern Orthodox.
I went off because of a number of issues I’ve written about here before. I wasn’t frum for a while. One day I realized that I wasn’t really happy with my life at that point either. Yes, I enjoyed myself, did what I wanted, etc. But at the end of the day, I just wasn’t happy with my life. I decided to give Judaism another try – but not the way I did before, which drove me off. I tried the Modern Orthodox derech, and found it much more fulfilling. I actually enjoyed being a frum Jew. It wasn’t any particular person, group of people, that did it. It wasn’t a Shabbos table, or a shmooz that did it. If anything, the shmooze I got from people almost drove me back off – people telling me that I was joining a Judaism that wasn’t right, and I was fooling myself.
I’m happy with the decisions I made in going towards Modern Orthodoxy. I’m not cut out to sit and learn, and in Yeshiva I was made to feel like a failure for that – until the yeshivos actually asked me for money! I actually once told one of them I’d learn an hour in their zechus instead of sending me a check, as when I was there, they told me the zechus of learning would provide for you and your family. They weren’t pleased with my response. Now, I’m not made to feel like a failure at all. On the contrary, I have a successful career, attend shiurim, and I feel great about it!
This is just another issue with the “Beis Yaakov” seminary system. It’s all about the money! How do I know this? I receive mailings all the time from schools all over the place. I’ve never heard of most of them, and I don’t know how they’ve heard of me. But I never received a fund raising letter from a Beis Yaakov seminary! I never heard of one having a Chinese Auction to raise money. They’re raking in cash from people here, claiming “We teach your children to be good Jews!”, while really they’re laughing all the way to the bank.
A seminary like Neve Yerushalayim, which has multiple fund-raising events every year and relies on their alumni for support, is something which is praiseworthy. These Beis Yaakov seminaries are garbage. Don’t waste your time with them.
Was the seminary you were applying to a Beis Yaakov seminary? Is that the only type (hashkafa wise) that you’re looking into?
HaKatan, yes, I am well aware of your post, and yes, I think you’re a Rasha. You attack large segments of Jews and call them terrible names. You’re a Rasha. Even here, on Yeshiva World, people are getting sick of you.
You quote from people such as the Chofetz Chaim and R’ Elchanan Wasserman. Neither of them were alive when Israel was founded, and the Zionism they spoke about was completely different from Zionism today. Today, tens of thousands of people learn in Israel because of Zionists. Without the state of Israel, there wouldn’t be this learning. As for Gedolim saying it’s wrong, so what? There are plenty of gedolim who say Israel is a brachah from Hashem! Why can’t you just accept it as a difference of opinion?
As for Satmar, I think that it has become a disgrace. R’ Yoel was convinced that Hashem punished the Jews with the Holocaust for not following the Torah properly, so he decided his followers should be machmir on everything, as much as they could, so it wouldn’t happen again. It’s a great idea in theory, but where did it lead? To looking down on those who aren’t Satmar as not being frum, to violence against people in the streets (public streets!) who aren’t dressed to their standards (which aren’t halachic standards), and, as DaMoshe pointed out, to brothers fighting in the streets on their father’s yartzeit! DaMoshe put it best – Satmar has become a disgrace! R’ Yoel put standards on himself that he thought everyone could follow, but he was 100% wrong! I don’t know if I’d say it’s avodah zarah, but it’s definitely not halachic Judaism anymore.
Regarding his views on Israel, his biggest issue was the 3 Oaths. There is a disagreement as to whether the oaths apply if the oath of the other nations was broken. It clearly was broken, so according to many, the 3 oaths no longer apply.
Like I said, if you want to oppose Israel, that’s fine. Just don’t make it out that those who support it are doing something wrong. There are many Rabbonim on each side of the issue.
Joseph and HaKatan, when there’s a call for more unity between Jews, I’m not surprised that you’re the ones who will argue against it.
I hope that when Mashiach comes, the two of you are not there to greet him. You’d probably throw rocks and call him an evil Zionist. With your hatred of Eretz Yisrael and millions of Jews all over the world, you don’t deserve to greet Mashiach.
So the Jets got a Satmar chossid on their team?
It’s disgusting. These people are like pigs. They stick out their feet (black hats and white shirts, sitting in yeshiva) to tell us, “Look, I’m kosher!”
But internally, they don’t have what is needed. They need to live the Torah, not just learn it.
DaMoshe, thanks for covering a lot of the ground. I’ll shed some more light on what happened in my case.
When I was in elementary school (it was the first day of 6th grade), as DaMoshe posted, I once said something about wanting to go to college. The Rebbe replied (in front of the entire class), “College? Only shkutzim go to college! You’re going to sit in kollel!”
I went home that night, and my parents asked me, “How was the first day of school?” I told them, “Apparently Tatty is a sheigitz, and Mommy is a shiksa!” The principal got an interesting phone call that night!
he next day, my Rebbe confronted me, and told me I was chutzpadik for telling my parents what he said. I was thrown out of class. The Rebbe repeatedly embarrassed me publicly throughout the school year.
When I was in 9th grade, I had a Rebbe who would also humiliate me. He told me he was doing it to make me a better masmid. Other kids in the class picked up on it, and I had a miserable year. I decided that if that was what went into being a masmid, I wanted no part of it.
Throughout high school, I didn’t really try to learn very much. I switched schools after 9th grade because I refused to go back to the yeshiva I’d been in. I got excellent grades in my general studies, but barely passed any tests in Gemara, I constantly skipped seder, etc. I was in a dormitory, which was closely watched, so there wasn’t much opportunity for other things. When we had an off-weekend, I’d go out and meet up with girls. I wasn’t careful about various things like Shabbos and kosher. I didn’t do things openly, but if I forgot to shut my alarm clock on Friday, I’d turn it off on Shabbos, or I’d adjust the AC in the summer if I needed to. I didn’t wait between eating meat and dairy at all – if I wanted a chocolate bar 10 minutes after a burger, I ate it.
After high school, my parents convinced me to spend one year in beis medrash. The Rosh Yeshiva caught on to what was going on, and decided to have a talk with me. At first he wanted to expel me, but his boss (the top RY) wouldn’t let him. When he heard I was going to go to college, suddenly he wanted me to stay. He told me, “If you go to college, you’re flushing your whole life down the toilet! You’ll never be a good Jew in college, because college doesn’t go together with being a frum Jew. You could learn all you want, but if you’re in college, it doesn’t matter – you can’t stay frum!”
I told him I definitely wasn’t staying in yeshiva, and that was that. I decided that if nothing I did would matter, then I might as well enjoy myself, so I completely let go. No more Shabbos, no more kosher, I started dating a girl who was in a sorority.
I went to Touro College only because they had a good program for what I wanted, and it fit with my (part time) work schedule. I made some friends there (including DaMoshe!) who were nice, Modern Orthodox people. I was also coasting my way through half a day of yeshiva at the time only to get the college credits. After some time, I realized that I wasn’t any happier than I’d be in yeshiva. I saw that a lot of my college friends seemed very happy and fulfilled with their lives, so I decided to give Judaism a try again – but not the yeshivish version. That’s how I went into the Modern Orthodox philosophy.
That’s just a condensed version. There are more details, but this is all I can write right now. College doesn’t make people go OTD. They go OTD because they don’t have a firm foundation in Judaism. That can happen anywhere – even in yeshiva.
HaKatan, what does Zionism have to do with this discussion? I think that it’s like it was said before, you’ll look for any excuse to attack Zionists, probably because your sad life was affected by Zionists in some way.
Now just come out and say you agree with the letter because R’ Yosef is a Zionist, and therefore you think he’s an apikores. It’s obvious from your posts that you feel that way, so why not come straight out and say it?
writersoul and PBA, you’re changing the topic of discussion here.
Popa, why do you shudder about the entire RCA? Why not just for the few people who signed the letter? Also, if you’re melamed zchus as you wrote earlier (in response to DaMoshe’s post), then why do you shudder?
I still think the mods should delete this entire thread. It is just the latest example of the double-standard here on YWN. I shudder for YWN! You’re in trouble after 120!
Mods, again you won’t post what I write? All I wrote was something R’ Moshe Feinstain zt”l said, which was later printed in a public letter. What’s wrong with that?
I don’t know. Ask someone and see if they can figure it out.
Mods: You say when gedolim are disagreeing, you shouldn’t get involved. Why don’t you try applying that to Modern Orthodox gedolim?
Try applying it when R’ Tendler argues about metzitzah b’peh. People here shouldn’t get involved, yet you have no problem letting through insults to R’ Tendler.
Try applying it here, in this case!
How was my post different? It was about a Rav showing disrespect to another Rav. The exact same thing as this post. Only difference is the RCA is mostly Modern Orthodox, so you allow posters to bash it, while my post was about a chareidi Rosh Yeshiva.
You see the difference? Your post was about the gedolim of the last generation, while this is about 3 random rabbis who steer the RCA and are attacking one of the gedolim of this generation.
You think that’s the exact same thing? Brilliant.
And not quite sure why you think there is punishment waiting for us after 120 for this. After all, you never argued that this is wrong–you just used it as a pretext to launch your own attacks.
And I will gladly take the punishment I get for this.
Mods, once again you’ve proven the double standard here. You allow posts like this which attack the largest organization of Orthodox Rabbis because it’s a mainly Modern Orthodox organization, but you don’t allow a similar thread I post about a chareidi Rabbi!
Sure, there was no difference otherwise.
How dare you?!? The RCA includes many huge Rabbonim, such as R’ Hershel Schachter, R’ Mordechai Willig, and others. You, some little shnook, think you are big enough to come out against them? You should be shuddering! Shuddering at the immensity of the sin you just committed with your post!
Mods, how can you allow such a post, which attacks the largest organization of Orthodox Rabbonim in the USA?
After some emails with the mods last night, I agreed that some of my post was over the line. We disagree about other parts. I definitely disagree when the mod wrote above that they wouldn’t have allowed my post if it had been about a MO Rav. In the thread which prompted me to leave, people wrote that Modern Orthodoxy is not really Orthodox. Yeshiva University has had horrible things said about it. People have attacked MO Rabbonim such as R’ Tendler many times, claiming he disrespects his father-in-law, R’ Moshe zt”l all the time by twisting his words. Yet when someone like DaMoshe tries to write about another Rosh Yeshiva in the chareidi world who showed a complete lack of respect for R’ Moshe zt”l, it doesn’t get approved, because God forbid people should know that one of their Rabbonim almost had a cherem put on him by R’ Moshe zt”l!
Mods: I sent my post to DaMoshe to review. I’m asking him to post it for me, as I’m rethinking my position on returning. Please consider it my “return post”, and it might be my last (not including this one)
Well, he will not get any special returning feifer dispensations.
Thanks for all the support 🙂
I think I’m going to try this again. DaMoshe talked me into it. I have some thoughts about yesterday’s chillul Hashem that I’d like to write about. I guess we’ll see if the mods here still have a double standard when I try to post it.
We will give you benefit of the rule of returning feifers.
But, we do not promise to not feif un you.
I’ve thought a lot recently about leaving the Coffee Room. The amount of misguided drivel and sheer hate spewed here is amazing. This thread has been the final straw. Not Rabbi Pruzansky’s comments – I know Rabbi Pruzansky and have a tremendous amount of respect for him. Perhaps I’ll even ask him about this issue. No, it’s the hatred shown towards fellow Jews who don’t live the same way that others might.
I’m done. I’m leaving.
Good bye; we’ll miss you. We appreciate the diversity of ideas you bring.
Naysberg: I guess you wouldn’t have gone to most yeshiva dinners in the 1960s, or the weddings that many Roshei Yeshiva made back then.
I pity you for thinking that people who don’t do things like you aren’t religious.
Regarding the bracha of Shehasimcha bimono, the Maharam Yaffa says that since times have changed and now it’s normal for women to be walking in the streets at all times, the Rema which says not to say it in mixed seating no longer applies.
Obviously there were, and still are, big Rabbonim who hold it’s fine. As I said, if you want separate seating at a simcha you are making, go ahead. I don’t begrudge you doing so. But don’t attack those who have mixed seating.
pba: Rabbeim may be suspect because the women come – and the Rebbe’s wife and the fathers of the kids are not there. Different from a wedding where couples are seated together.
Al tarbeh is not a halachah, merely advice – not that it means don’t follow it, but you shouldn’t base a psak on it. And again, does that refer to a conversation with a woman when her husband is away, or is next to her as well?
As for the parsha of arayos on Yom Kippur, I’ve heard many explanations. I heard a pshat from the Maharal’s on it, which say the reason is specifically to show unity in klal Yisrael – that we are forbidden to marry relatives so that we should reach out to others who we don’t know.
I’m not surprised that there are those who want separate seating, and I don’t begrudge them having it. But it bothers me when they say it’s wrong to have it. You want to be machmir? Fine. Don’t impose it on others.
pba: You’re correct, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with talking to my friend and his wife at a wedding. I have friends over for Shabbos meals and I speak to their wives. Why should this be different?
I certainly wouldn’t be alone with her. Chazal made halachos to prevent things from happening. Yichud is one such halachah. Do we now know more than Chazal? Are we putting gezeiros in place so as not to transgress other gezeiros? That is not allowed.
2scents: It’s not that I want to sit near women who aren’t related to me. I’d like to sit with my wife, and have the people we’re friends with nearby also. That means couples that we’re friends with, not just the men.
Mimk: It wasn’t my words, it was my Rosh Yeshiva who said it. He is a well known and respected Rosh Yeshiva. He told me it contains every chumrah known in tznius and presents it as basic halachah. He said it’s only good for scaring people away.
I was told that even R’ Falk (who I have no doubt is a tremendous talmud chacham) wrote that the standards are intended for his community, and not meant to provide standards for other areas. His community is known to be far more machmir than almost any area outside of certain parts of Israel.
bubka: I know that my Rosh Yeshiva told me that Oz Vehadar Levusha is good for scaring girls away from the mitzva of tznius, and he doesn’t recommend it to anyone.
He also once told my brother that although he doesn’t necessarily agree with R’ Soloveitchik’s hashkafos, he was still a huge talmud chacham and a gadol, and he has a tremendous amount of respect for him. He once heard a bachur in the yeshiva refer to him as JB, and he blew up at him for his lack of respect.
Nechomah: So you’re saying that when R’ Breuer was strongly in favor of it, it was only because times were different back then, and now things have changed?
bubka: They want to grow in Judaism, not be scared off.
Ish Ha-Halakha by R’ Soloveitchik