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I dont like that America is becoming pro gay…i think im gonna stop paying taxes
i dont see the issue. If you need the water to drink, you can rub your hands on a tree or something.
health- “u should be careful not to drink a lot”
Notice how he says you should be CAREFUL not to drink a LOT. Does he say its assur anywhere? It may be an issue of ushmartem es nafsheichem, but then again so is drinking any unhealthy drinks such as soda.
I think the bottom line here is bochurim need outlets. Goq- you are correct about the legal aspect, but have you ever done anything illegal in your life? i think its part of growing up. Again im not saying drinking is an acceptable outlet, but does anyone have an answer for what is?
147- thats a little extreme dont you think. Nothing wrong with drinking occasionally as long as you control yourself and dont get wasted
I thought everyone knew about the drinking problems in yeshivas. Yeshiva kids dont have many outlets and its one of the main ones. Im not condoning it in the slightest, but the reality is they know the Rebbeim don’t mind drinking as much as other less socially acceptable activities….so they drink
csar- you cant compare someone who harms another person to someone who went off the derech. If i see anyone harming anyone else, i judge them.I dont care who the person is, Jew or non-Jew, frum or not frum, yeshivish or modern orthodox or chasidish…. However if a person goes off the derech, thats between them and God, and we have no right to judge them.
It’s precisely this attitude that causes so many to leave the community
shmoel- “The lowest Yid is on a much much higher madreiga than the best goy.”
so according to you levi aaron is better then the best guy. Intelligent obervation :
loyal jew- theres a big difference between mingling with goyim, and acting Like goyim. Big difference between hanging out with someone who eats a rabbit, and actually eating a rabbit. Big difference between Experiencing someone who doesnt keep shabbos, and actually not keeping shabbos yourself.
By my logic… you dont know what keeping shabbos is until youve been with people who dont keep shabbos. Thats when life becomes a challenge. Thats when your forced to concsiously make a decison to keep shabbos, instead of doing it because of habit and cause you dont know any other way. And if you stop being frum when you do experience it, that means you never fully internalized it while in yeshiva.
Is it terrible for me to say my life didnt start until i left yeshiva and was forced to see the real world. Thats when i stopped being frum out of habit, and began being shomer mitzvohs for the true correct reasons. Im not advocating leaving yeshiva at all, just saying it doesnt mean the best part of your life is over…
Health- I can’t believ those words are coming out of a frum jews mouth. ” either you want to be frum or you want to be part of your freye family”…. “if they want a relationship they have to accomadate you”
Have you no sensitivity towards others? What happened to loving your fellow Jew, frum or not frum, yarmulka or no yarmulka… Let alone your own biological brother! Do you think your first class and Jews who aren’t yet shower Mitzvos are second? Wouldnt you want a relationship with your brother regardless of his personel lifestyle?
Loyal Jew- that’s quite an accusation. I believe you misunderstood him. Reform Judiasm says we should be like the goyim. Quite different then what naftush was saying. He simply said being exposed to goyim is not a bad thing. I’m not sure why that’s so bad to say however I do understand why some people would disagree. If you’ve ever been exposed to a non Jew, you may realize some of them are amazing human beings
pba and csar- sometimes its not so simple to just “not go” to some places…especially when its a close relative like your brother. And if your not in MS_DC’s situation you cant judge him like that.
That being said, she must have not known better or she wouldnt have eaten the hamburger. I wouldnt beat myself up if it was my kid. However next time the situation arises, be ultra careful and help your daughter understand why its important that she eats different food then her cousins.
Ibmzr- I wasnt talking to you or anyone in specific (maybe one person who shall remain anonymous to avoid machlokes). Is it possible that there is another way to understand what the rambam meant by that statement?
On another note, am i allow to disagree with something said by the rambam?
Am i crazy?? It seems many people here believe that someone who learns torah all day is a better person then someone who doesnt. That is completely not true and frankly its insulting to people who dont learn as much. Obviously learning is important and its the greatest mitzvah. But the purpose of learning is not just to be learning, the purpose of learning is to know all of torah and use it to bring Hashem down to this world, not to brag about it on an online blog. If you learn torah good for you, your doing an amazing thing, but ur not more important then any other jews.
Halevi- thanks i thought id heard that before.
Csar- Not true at all. There are a million reasons he could have stopped following halachah, however stopping something doesnt imply that he regrets it. You could stop from Social pressure, laziness, losing the spiritual motivation, getting bored of it… The point is, a person going off doesnt mean that person has regrets that he was once religious.
i have no sources to back this up. But i would assume it depends on the person. When you say someone who is mgayer and goes off what does that mean exactly. Does he completely throw away judiasm, or does he just get lazy and not as religious, but still believes in it. If he goes on and then off comopletely he probably forfeits his reward he would have gotten. But if he just loses the motivation, but still believes in god, he probably gets schar for the time in his life he devoted to hashem.
That would work also. I think the point was basically if your gonna be doing certain things dont present yourselves as religious jews
interesting ive never heard about that tshuvah before ill check it out. I know my rebbi makes a point to say that people should take off their yarmulka and certain places such as some bars, clubs, and casinos due to chillul hashem.
True it is a concious decision. But right now its not an option for me to not listen to music. Im not holding there…maybe one day
Im sure not everyone agrees with Rav Dessler. But thats the beauty of judiasm, everyone does what works for them.
ok i saw it. I wouldnt exactly call that mussar. It looked like he just seemed surprised that they were there and was messing around with them. The truth is they shouldnt be there, but if they do go they definitely should not be dressed like chassidic jews its a massive chillul hasehm.
I disagree. Rav Dessler as well as Rav Akiva Tatz write about how each person has their own world of aveiros and mitzvahs. Everyone makes decisions at their own level. Meaning there is little if no schar for not murdering someone for me, because thats not even a concious decision for me its so obviously wrong. Also learning 10 hours a day for me is also impossible so i wont get punished for not learning that much. What i get rewarded and punished for are the things that are in my concious decision realm. An example for me would be benching after meals. Thats something i struggle with and thus i would get rweard or punishment for doing or not doing it. The point is something you consider a “small aveirah” may not be an aveirah for me at all….
Daas Yochid- i guess thats just a matter of opinion. I cant see myself burning for listening to all different types of music
Bygirl- where did u watch it?
good point. In your opinion what’s considered acceptable music?
Daas Yachid- you do realize the only reason you dont view contemporary jewish music as “jungle music” is because the community simply accepts that style. I find that most jewish music is stuck in a 70’s style elton John type of music. Its a serious problem nowdays that the quiality of Jewish music is not up to par.
In regards to only listening to Jewish music- I dont think jewish music is the only inspirtational music. Some of my greatest inspirations come from on jewish songs. Theres a big difference between songs with trashy lyrics and songs with insirational ones.
halevi- there is a dress code for all orthodox jews today. yarmulaka and tzitzis
Mod42- I didnt go so i cant state this as a fact. But based on what ive heard, i think most people who bashed it were upset that it wasnt what was advertised. It was advertised as teaching us how to live with the internet. Instead it was basically a “bash the internet its terrible” gathering.
ok
Books are nice. But ive never found them to help for more then a couple of days. If your serious about this, i would recommend seeing a therapist as he can tailor to your needs exactly as opposed to a book which talks about people in general.
Logican- Just because i dont respond to an insulting post it doesnt make it correct. Yes you specified that it was the system who failed and not me, but you also basically said nebach on me. My friend, thats very foolish. You realize you are part of the system of people who looks down on people who dont learn as much as you believe your supposed to. I didnt respond, not out of “shame”, but because it will serve no purpose. I have no reason to argue with you. I thank god every day how amazing hes been to me, and im pretty confident no one i know thinks of me as a nebach. So im not a yeshivash kid. Not really intersted in being one either. I want to serve god my own way. Dont be so quick to look at someone who doesnt enjoy learning as a nebach, its called being judgemental and doesnt belong in our religion.
LiveandLearn- i never said i wouldnt. But id also be curious what the person looks like and i shouldnt be looked down upon for wanting to see a picture before the date.
And you didnt give me an answer yet. “Whats wrong with being curious about how the person looks”
WOW- Truth is im not equipped to answer a question like that but ill try and give my opinion based on what ive seen. Israeli teens and american teens are a completely different breed. The american society is way more materialistic and shallow. As opposed to the israelis who tend to value other things such as nationalism and toughness. Kids that go off in israel are much more likely to get thrown out of their houses, or join a gang, and tend to fight a lot. Most of them end up in the army and once their in the army theres no way to know where theyll end up. Both in a good way and bad. But its a lot different then the americans. Americans usually wont be involved in gangs, but their likely to become very materialistic and lose sight of the bigger picture. However its common for them to end up either non-religious or modern orthodox (which is not a bad thing at all)
Also the charedi neighborhoods in israel seem to be a lot more intense and closed off then the ones in America. SO going off in israel can be worse in a sense that the community will look down on you much more for it, as opposed to america where its easy to move to another neighborood and fit right in.
Again, i just want to reiterate that this is all based on what ive seen and im no expert in the matter so take what i say with a grain of salt. But you should let the other posters know if your in israel or not because it will change the nature of the advice to fit your kid. I know ive been basing everything i said assuming your son was american and things i say may not apply in such a different culture
Nechomah- Thanks so much for the encouragement! Ive spoken to my rebbi about this and he always tells me the same thing, how my learning is worth so much more because i really struggle to find satisfaction.
WOW- I disagree about him never returning to black and white. You never know where life can lead him. However the reality is, and You may not want to hear this, but i highly doubt your son will ever want to be a part of your community based on the way you portray his being treated there. However thats not a bad thing. There are many many religious communities where he may fit in very well once he grows up. (which most likely will happen- theres no reason to belive hel be a lazy 16 year old his whole life). He doesnt need to learn to fit into the box, the box has to bend if it wants to fit around him.
Also if you dont mind me asking. do you live in israel or the united states or somewhere else because an OTD kid from israel is way different then the kids from america.
LIVEandLEARN- agreed most people are not ugly. SO why do girls get offened when asked for a picture. Whats wrong with being curious about how the person looks. It shouldnt be made into such a big deal, its just common sense, of course you want to know what the person looks like before you meet. And dont say “its because looks arent whats really important”. Because thats sooo misleading. Looks are not the ONLY thing that is important but of course they play a role in determining who you marry.
Logiacan- yeah its true i know there must be areas of learning that i would find interesting but i havent yet find my niche for learning and i hope i will one day. I cant change my pasts negative associations with learning, but im trying to change my behavior and change the association to a positive one.
Loyal Jew- Thats a very litvish apporach. Not exactly my style. I dont think is so simple to spend your life doing something thats torture for you. You can bring me all the arguments youd like, but i do not believe god brought me to this world to make me suffer. I believe he wants me to be happy. I will continue to do what makes me happy while trying to be the best jew i can and have a strong relationship with God.
Going back on what loyal Jew said. You mentioned how some boys can’t learn in yeshiva and then go to college and are able to learn. Of course that happens. People find it a lot easier to study something they find interesting. Personally, I do not enjoy learning Gemara, i tried for years but never received much enjoyment from it. However certain subjects that I studied in college I found to be way more interesting. So what should I do? Should I go to kollel and spend my days in torture. The reality, and this is something many frum people seem to be in denial about, is that learning and being in kollel is not the only important part of judiasm. Some people aren’t meant to be learners and can fill other roles in klal Yisroel. I’m not saying their completely patur from learning, but they shouldn’t be expected to learn all day especially if they don’t enjoy learning. As a rebbi once told me “the most important thing in life is to do whatever makes you happy”
LiveandLearn- your pointing out how men and women differ. Thats exactly the point. Its unfair to call a guy shallow if he rejects a girl for looks, the same way a girl can be called shallow for rejecting a guy for missing an occasional minyan. Both are important, but boys and girls value them differently.
“if they make a mature decision to begin dressing differently than they used to, but are not intending to lessen their connection to yiddishkeit”
It seems like your saying there is a connection between wearing jeans and having a lesser connection of yiddishkiet. Maybe he just wants individuality. Maybe he wants to make a decision about how he dresses instead of following the community blindly because of social norms. Dont get me wrong, there is value to what you are saying. The decision to go against the community norms may be a way to disassociate himself from the community in a public way. But why look at the jeans as an example of his falling. If hes falling in yiddishkiet it will be evident through other areas that actually have meaning. People who see a teenager in jeans and think “what a nebach” have completely missed the point of torah and yiddishkiet. Being judgemental is a terrible aveirah and its one that all of us, myself included, need to work on.
i hear both sides here about the way to dress. The truth is its not an easy situation for WOW, especially since the community will look down on anyone who doesnt copy the system. Of course the idea that we should all wear white and black is completely ridiculous and NOT a torahdika concept. We allow individuality in this religion…or at least were supposed to.
However before we attack WOW for saying she doesnt know if she can ever buy her son jeans, i think we need to take a step back and look at her from her perspective. We can talk about whats right and whats wrong, but HER reality is that her son and maybe even her family will be looked down upon if her son changes his style of clothing. This is not her or her sons fault, its solely the fault of the community placing their emphasis on the wrong areas.
WOW- this is your struggle right now, do NOT let your standing in your community dictate how your son should dress. The meaningless of the way he dresses is way beyond the emphasis placed on it. When i was in school they wanted to throw me out for having an untucked shirt!!! what kind of example is that setting, to this day i look at that rebbi and have negative thoughts. There is no reason in the world that your son should not dress the way he desires. Believe me your son knows it will make people in the community look down and him if he dresses and jeans, but hes probably smart enough to realize the stupidity of the issue.
For your sons sake, let him dress how he wants. Even though i know it must be very difficult for you, please dont make an issue of it as it shouldnt be an issue at all. Your sons happiness and success in life wont depend on white shirt vs t-shirt. But his happiness might depend on his parents supporting him through the thick and thin.
majority of men will say yes
majority of women will say no
Well said health…for once we agree lol
“How do guys feel if they are rejected for their looks”
Does it hurt their egos? of course it does…but thats part of life. Just like the guy wants the girl to be attractive, they cant be upset if the girl wants an attractive guy. I would expect the person i marry to be attracted to me
lets see who has the guts to say their voting for obama…
mod 42- completely disagree. For all those who grew out of it, there are just as many whom it had strong negative effects on them later in life. Theres a big difference between a trouble maker and a kid with add/adhd.
Also theres a common misconcpetion that add/adhd medicines stunt a childs growth. This is far from the truth. In fact it does the opposite it teaches the child to focus in classrooms and keep their mind from drifting