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WOW–is there something he shows particular interest or talent in, or an inclination to know more about? Maybe it’s possible to use that as a starting point to find work as an apprentice or a part time job, in order to get him into a new environment with new people, where he is interacting differently than in yeshiva or with the chevra. If the tormenting in yeshiva was long in duration, or involved more than one other tormentor, or was particularly brutal, or twisted so that the victim seemed to be causing the problem, I’m guessing it will be very tough for him to ever feel good at that yeshiva, and maybe at any other yeshiva. But you have a chance since he agreed to finish there. I’m not sure if you mean he will finish until the end of this zman, or afterward as well. But eventually he will move on so maybe your focus needs to be on gently guiding him into what will come afterward. At 16 he probably cannot see that far, but you can, so he may be interested in listening to you if you begin with the things he is already interested in, or feels competent at.
Can someone post a brief summary of Rabbi Keleman’s Permission books?
notaposter: I have heard of this before, part of the sensitivity training that needs to be done in schools is to make people aware of how painful their questions are to the sib of the OTD, and to ask themselves why they imagine they have a right to ask these questions?
Unfortunately we need to beware of those who would take advantage of the desperation families feel when they are struggling to find a yeshiva. From experience: there are those who would accept the otherwise rejected student with little fanfare, then throw him out shortly afterward and keep some of the registration money…..there are those who have a very weak or nearly absent academic program but market their school so that it sounds a good fit……in other words, beware those schools desperate for money who would take advantage of families with nowhere to go.
This is the next big problem for us, after acknowledging and helping the OTD. And the schools will have to be part of the solution for this. Ostracizing and ridiculing kids with OTD sibs shouldn’t be tolerated, and the schools have to educate and sensitize their students to be caring and supportive, not the opposite. And the staff, BTW, also must take the lead in showing caring and compassion in a dignified way to these kids, since the mechanchim are the models.
proudbyg: your brother probably knows you love him, and you should never let the taunting change that. Sometimes a loving sib can be a real lifeline for the OTD!!
Sounds like there are power struggles to deal with there—your discomfort with him calling the shots, the other kids wanting you to restore the balance of power, and not wanting them to get the idea that calling the shots is an option for them too.
It’s not so pashut with the siblings. They sometimes have a multilevel kesher to the OTD sibling , and if the parent ostracizes or enforces separation with the OTD, the others can come to resent the parents. Sometimes they resent the OTD for the stress on the whole family. On the other hand sometimes there can be no calm atmosphere unless the rebellious kid moves out. I think it’s very important to connect individually with each sib and find out how they are thinking about the situation, then deal with each of them according to their needs, to give them chizuk in being empathetic and davening for their sibling, but also realizing the need to distance themselves from OTD behavior.
W/O/W, too much to post about Shabbos today, but just wanted to tell you again, you should not feel alone, your descriptions of your son’s behavior on Shabbos were so familiar, right down to the cornflakes at noon… Have a peaceful Shabbos.
w/o/w, BTW, I don’t know your family, but in today’s world it is not a stretch to say your son may already be spending considerable time on the internet with friends, maybe even reading YWN Coffee room!
w/o/w: Again, speaking from experience, I would say there are 2 things that cannot coexist: helping your child and at the same time trying to hide him because of worrying about what the community will think. One thing for sure, our kids have sensitive antennas and if we are ashamed of them, they pick it up quickly and resent it. So as difficult as this step is, it is really step one: make your son the priority over your reputation in the neighborhood. And of course, this is where a support network would be invaluable, but I cannot tell you where to find one.
As for how he spends time, he may be content with laziness for the time being, but eventually he will probably realize that he can acquire things for himself if he works. It may be that the idea of work doesn’t occur to him, or he thinks there is no job he can do. I don’t necessarily think this is the correct path for him, it would be better if he could connect to someone who would turn him back on the derech.
It’s interesting how he is challenging you, by letting his sibs listen to the forbidden music and warning you that you have to support him until 18. Could it be that he is daring you to show strength and resolution? It does sound like he has an agenda of some sort, have you figured out what he really wants, other than a computer?
If the teasing/bullying is really the motivator here, it can be a rough road ahead. Been there.
w/o/w: consider how he is spending his time now, according to your post, he is either with friends or sleeping. So the question is what is the most productive and realistic thing he can do with his time now. He is refusing yeshiva options, and I have to say from personal experience at this stage it might not be the worst thing if he doesn’t go back to yeshiva now, only because of what he may have to go through to find the right yeshiva shidduch at the moment. The search for a yeshiva shidduch for an OTD kid can push him further, as it can be grueling with all of the applications, rejections, trials & expulsions, etc.. So what should he do? He is 16, and he could, if all agree, get a job. And once he is working, either the situation at home will change for the better, or, he will have the means to take a small apartment or room on his own. You are right, I hope it doesn’t come to that point, it’s better if you can find a way to keep him home.
W/O/W: You are not alone. The grief that parents suffer with OTD is massive, but the potential for changing ourselves is also great. You will need to develop and strengthen your davening, sometimes all the advice on earth is well meaning but unproductive. And just a hopeful note about the residence situation: if your son does move out in the end, your relationship with him may improve at that point. Try to be involved with the decision of where he will move and with whom he will live. And afterward, find out what is his main mode of communication—typically these days it is facebook, but may be something else like e-mail. Then go there and communicate with him that way. As long as he stays in your home, the relationship with his siblings has to be a priority. Each kid is probably having their own reactions, and it is worthwhile to seek some private time with each one to let them air their concerns to you. It’s OK I think to let them know you are sad, but give them chizuk at the same time if you can find the right words that will reach each child’s heart.
And finally I want mention that it is a disaster for all of us, that a parent suffering this massive grief must turn to an internet blog for support and advice, and it is indeed offered and received well here. Where are all the in-person support networks for parents and siblings of OTD, all of whom are grieving deeply? I hope this matter will be considered well at the upcoming asifa on internet. How will you keep children away from internet when adults depend on internet to fill large gaps in support in the community? And one other point, please don’t use therapy as the final solution for every difficult problem. We have heard it ad nauseum, and at this point we have heard from many who followed this advice and found it ineffective.
It depends on who you think runs the world. If the world is run by chance, then the cheaters seem to come out ahead. If Ribbono shel olam runs the world, you should just do the honest thing and let Him worry about the heshbonos & justice for the cheaters.
In one (big-ideas) speech Gingrich suggested that in the future students would use kindle-like devices instead of textbooks, and that this would save schools money.
Will Facebook be discussed in a meaningful way at the upcoming asefa on internet? It seems we have meetings local and regional, large and small year after year and no progress is being made regarding the internet.
Who has the wisdom to know which is better? To be refused admission or expelled and go completely off to join the secular world; or to be immersed in the treif privately and keep an outer appearance of frum? And if the school would not expel, how would they enforce their policy otherwise?
Is this camp opening this year?
Is the Chassidishe Gatesheader leaving an instruction manual for the next terrorist?
I hope there will be practical suggestions as to how it is possible to function today without internet, we’ve heard the horror stories already but how many people heed the warnings?
The media is waiting until Israel responds forcefully, maybe a ground incursion, then they will attack Israel and blame them for being the agressors. Their silence on the events of the last few days enable them to lie later about who are the attackers and who are the defenders.
Non-fiction kids books offer a broad range of topics, and are written today in a very engaging way. But don’t think they can go without supervised review! There are all kinds of stuff that comes up in non-fiction, across the board, that can include anti-creation themes, cultural pritzus & vulgarity, advancing of secular entertainment, and a host of values antithetical to Torah. In order to appeal to kids the information is no longer delivered straight and dry, but the context it is embedded in makes these books as bad as a lot of the fiction.
If we import from the secular world and excuse it by saying we had no idea what it means or where it came from—we should realize that those who do understand the nuances of whatever we’ve imported then think we have embraced the secular culture.
The approved secular booklist can be found on chinuch.org. Just type book list as the keyword. There are 2 versions, one with comments on each book and one without.
No pritzus in tintin? How about Bianca Castifiore !! JK Really the problem with tintin is adult themes other than pritzus, and a lot of violence.
It’s tough when you have a kid who loves to read, even though that should be a positive attribute. It’s a good question to ask, what do you do when your child finishes reading the first batch of mysteries. A kid with an unsatiable appetite for reading is never satisfied–you always need to be finding more books that aren’t objectionable.
What about the Jewish novels? There are at least a dozen of them that are mysteries and can be found in Jewish bookstores; for example the suspense novels of Yair Weinstock.
In my opinion this book is innocent, cute, and a very good read for kids. Nothing objectionable about the way characters relate– Agreed it should be at a lower grade level than 7th.
The kids learn early that they should expect prizes and rewards for everything they do right. Time passes, and they want bigger and better prizes and rewards. Trips and entertainment every day off. Later, houses, cars, jewelry, etc.
If I was a parent of one of the choir boys I would not let them appear on a secular entertainment/news venue. Why purposely tempt them to spark their interest in the glitter of secular media?
BTG, wondering what you are referring to? I have never heard another politician willing to be so strong publicly on Israel as Gingrich.
It takes chesed and generosity to devote one’s time to taking care of elder parents. This generation was brought up on kumpt mir, the two cannot coexist.
The focus can only be on the economy so long as there is no major security threat. Remember how fast the focus on #1 priority changed on 9/11?? Overnight.
Also, I like the way he challenges everyone’s knowledge about history. Probably the majority of Americans are pitifully ignorant. Netanyahu said it well at the UN when he charged the media for having a sense of history that goes back as far as breakfast.
I’m not ready to put the blame for 9/11 on Gingrich shoulders. It’s not only a funding problem that has caused the military/intelligence to be outdated and to be caught by surprise on 9/11.
I think we have to give Gingrich a serious and thoughtful look, simply because he is still the most intelligent, knowledgeable and experienced candidate. The press is tearing him apart now, over personal and political baggage, and it is interesting to watch how he responds. Is the Freddie Mac consultant fees really critical? Are we willing to give him slack on the divorces/cheating since he publicly says he asked God for forgiveness and asked for reconciliation? One thing can be said for sure, he is not running away nor denying. In fact he is inviting them to dig, saying if you can’t take the heat you don’t deserve to be president.
I think many people are finding him to be a refreshing change from intellectual pablum usually served up by these campaigns. Some of the other candidates really need to bow out gracefully now, since they have shown themselves to be unqualified.
It is only a fact of life if the school tolerates it. Controlling it is in the hands of the rebbes and administration, and is their achrayis (as well as the parents).
In order to reduce Education costs, Newt Gingrich proposed to do away with textbooks and give each child a kindle-like device which they will take with them from year to year and upload books (if that’s how it’s done).
AOM: I would add that it depends on what their role models are happy DOING? If they see their models very happily practicing sheker and hypocrisy, that also turns off. The point is to be happy while performing mitzvos.
BT: I don’t have an opinion about your situation since there are too many unknowns, but a few thoughts: Before a person commits to going to college they should have a realistic idea of what college will demand of them. Doctors/Lawyers spend a minimum of seven years in college before they can actually practice and begin to earn money. A lot of time in the first 4 years is spent learning useless subjects that are required for the degree. If during those seven years your life develops in other ways so that your time is occupied by marriage, job, learning, etc. it may become difficult to keep up with the demands of college. And finally, in listening to some of the debates going on regarding the burden of student loans that many graduates carry, it has been mentioned that today’s marketplace doesn’t necessarily demand a college degree anymore, especially in certain areas. As an example I heard that among some notable college dropouts were Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg.
There is an org that operates in Israel called Mesila, however they print materials for the U.S. to help people struggling with debt and finances, take a look at their website. If that is not helpful, you probably need someone with experience in financial advice who can take a look at your finances with both of you and help create a workable plan of financial management.
As for the therapy, I can only say if it were me and I already tried 4 different people, trust your own judgement that this is not the right way, despite the pressure to keep going back to (and paying) more and more therapists.
You need to get help asap, the coffee room is not the right place.
A thoughtful post, covering many bases. we can all use the reminders.
I don’t understand, if Israel wants to attack Iran why all the advance notice? Was this leaked intentionally or did Israel have no control over what was leaked? And if not, isn’t that a pretty serious problem, not being able to keep your intentions to attack another country secret? I guess the report on Iran’s nuclear arsenal that’s due out this week will also play into the equation somehow….
Not meaning to change the topic, but another difficult question is how to interact at work with Jews married to non-Jews. Some also have children who are not Jewish, but are brought up to believe they are.
Forever is a long time. Hashem’s arm reaches people even in remote locations.
Is it possible that he has changed and become a religious person, or does the sin he committed years ago preclude him from ever being regretful and changing?
At the very least, the large number of signatures should have warranted an acknowledgement that the matter was urgent and some kind of assistance should have been offered, instead of just a rebuff.
True, in the age of yearning for the latest new device people have little use for something or someone who has been around a while. Also true he is more right leaning–I heard him say he couldn’t trust a person’s judgement if the person doesn’t pray. Anyway, the country votes polish not substance, so Gingrich will have a tough run.
He is clearly the most knowledgeable about American and global history and government, and with a good track record in balancing budgets. He is likely the best candidate to handle things in a crisis of almost any kind. His Contract with America, which is his electoral platform and can be found on his website, is a 26 page document describing his solutions in all areas of presidential leadership. His position on Israel is strong and founded in understanding of history. (He claims he will move the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem on his 1st day in office).
That being said, he has 2 problems in getting elected. 1) he is not warm & fuzzy and doesn’t cozy up to the press, actually he rankles them. He has a rough manner that bothers people. and 2) He has a difficult past in terms of ethical matters, but he seems to have done a sort of teshuva. So the question is, do we need an (ostensibly) clean candidate or can we live with someone who made mistakes and admitted them, and seems to have changed?
We also lost several thousand a few years back when a yeshiva in Bayit Vegan did not work for our son. What incentive do these yeshivas and seminaries have to solve the problems of kids they are not serving properly, when they get to keep money for no outlay on their part if the kid returns early to the US?