EY Mom

Doomsday, the catch is in the “among reported cases” phrase. They didn’t put that in for no reason. Unlike today, when anyone who suspects his child has measles will go straight to the pediatrician’s office, then not everyone went to the doctor. They kept their kids as comfortable as possible and hoped for the best. I would also imagine that in that scenario, if a kid came down with pneumonia as a result of the measles and ch”v died, the cause of death would be listed as pneumonia – not measles. Same for encephalitis.

As for concern, of course people were concerned. There just wasn’t much they could do about it before vaccines came along. Same for tuberculosis and mumps. And cut fingers before penicillin. You did what you could and hoped you’d be on the bright side of the statistics.

And your car example doesn’t work. The world is very concerned about car accidents. That’s why we have so many road safety rules: Because the road is a very dangerous place and we have to do whatever we can to keep it as safe as possible. Neither you nor any of us on this thread (I would assume) ever lived in a world where measles, mumps, rubella, smallpox, polio etc. were a fact of life. If you had, you might feel differently about vaccines.

“EY, I don’t give sources because Pro-Vaxxers attack the Source instead of the FACTS.”
So what? If you feel the sources are legit, why don’t you give them?

Besides, isn’t that what the anti-vaxxers do, too? 2scents or whoever gives sources, and the other side says, “those don’t count because the CDC or whoever did the study is on the payroll of the vaccine companies and the results are fraudulent. And even if the results can’t be proven to be fraudulent, they shouldn’t be counted because the CDC is getting billions from the drug companies, so they results aren’t credible no matter what.”

What can I tell you, to me the CDC still has more credibility than people on quack watch lists.

Doomsday, you’re not giving any sources. You’re just quoting. Who are the scientists who have disproved the CDC studies? Whoever 2scents is, they’re quoting source upon source. What are your sources?

Because he’s a one-man show, that’s why. No one credible who is not associated with a conspiracy theory movement has ever backed up his studies.
He’s a “medical research journalist” – whatever that means – with an agenda. Look him up in American Loons, Quackwatch, etc. and you’ll find him. You don’t see names of real researchers there. The studies he quotes have all been discredited, and by more than one person or organization.
Also, while it’s true that some of the studies done on vaccines have been either done or paid for by individuals or organizations with conflicts of interest, the exact same thing can be said for Miller. So he’s just not someone who can be used to disprove repeated studies showing that vaccines do not cause autism, SIDS, etc.

Doomsday, could you please explain this paragraph you wrote? I read it three times and I still can’t figure out what you’re trying to say:
“What the RESULTS of the study OMITS – is that the MMR was replaced with THREE OTHER Vaccines – and THAT is why Autism went. So NO PROOF that MMR does not cause Autism. FAKE STUDY!”

And okay, let’s say for argument’s sake that this one study was faulty, fraudulent, whatever. There are a huge number of other studies that came to the same conclusion. What about those?
The point is this: Whether or not every single study that comes to the conclusion that autism, SIDS, etc. are not caused by vaccines were all done by lying, cheating people with an agenda, you still can’t disprove them by bringing studies done by other people…with an agenda, especially when they’ve been more or less proven to be conspiracy theorists with little to no qualifications to be doing the research they say they’re doing.

And please don’t bring the fight against smoking to prove your point. The dangers of smoking were proven by the very medical establishment and government health agencies you now say are lying about vaccines, and the top was blown off the issue by a whistleblower who worked inside the tobacco industry and was able to bring solid proof from within that the manufacturers knew about the dangers of smoking and were covering it up.

RebYidd23, I think you missed my point – or maybe I didn’t state it clearly. Either way, my point was totally not that vaccines prevent allergies. I never heard of such a thing. My point was that, if Doomsday is bringing the recent uptick in the prevalence of peanut allergies in America as proof that vaccines are causing allergies, then how does she (I think she, please correct me if I’m wrong) explain the lack of nut allergies in EY when the kids are getting the same vaccines?
And if Bamba is the answer, then vaccines aren’t what’s causing the problem. I mean, Bamba’s great and all, but if vaccines were the cause of allergies I’d be hard-pressed to believe Bamba could counteract them…

Doomsday, I’m sorry, but your arguments are seriously incoherent.
ADHD isn’t determined by teachers or rebbeim. An ADHD diagnosis can only be made by a competent mental health professional. Teachers and rebbeim can refer students who they think may be presenting with ADHD symptoms, but that’s it. It’s not something “fake” or “real.” Anyone who has dealt with a child – or an adult family member, for that matter – with ADHD knows it’s real.
And are you really, seriously advocating smacking in the classroom? Forget modern psychology, gedolei Yisroel have come out against it for a host of reasons.
I will say it one more time: ADHD and learning disabilities grow because we are more aware of them. ADHD was only acknowledged and classified about 50 years ago. The proliferation of methods to deal with learning disabilities just means more kids are acknowledged as having them and are being helped. As for asthma, allergies, etc. – do you seriously believe that ALL these are being caused by vaccines? That makes no logical sense whatsoever and does no service to your argument.
Mind you, I’m not weighing in on the vaccine debate. But the arguments you’re advancing in support of your position are seriously lacking in coherence and in logic.

Having come from a family with divorced parents, I have this to say:

In my opinion, it is very important to find out if the prospective shidduch has another role model for a healthy relationship. If they are close to a mentor, i.e. a rav/maggid shiur/mechaneches etc. to the point where they spend time in the other home and have seen – not just learned about – what a healthy, beautiful relationship looks like, and that’s what they’re striving for, then I would feel much more relaxed.

If, on the other hand, they don’t have that kind of a relationship with anyone then while I wouldn’t say you should reject the idea out of hand, I would suggest having an open discussion about the subject, in addition to checking very carefully into the person’s middos and behavior patterns.

While shopping613 is right about the makeup (it is very expensive here), it is not advised to bring shampoo and conditioner.

You can buy good brands like Head and Shoulders, Pantene and others here – even though they are more expensive, it is worth it because they are formulated for hard water, unlike the stuff from the States.

As far as cream cheese – I have no idea where shopping613 is, but buying American-style cream cheese is no problem here – either stop in at a Brunch Bagel, or go to a supermarket that sells cheese by the weight – it’s called gevinat shamenet.

Clothing is more expensive here, although I disagree about the online orders – I and lots of Americans I know buy very good quality clothing here, you just need to know where to shop!

To all babysitters and parents of them as well, a piece of advice:

Stipulate beforehand that you only babysit/let your daughter babysit on condition that the parents either come home together or the mother comes home first. This is the only condition under which I let my teenage daughter babysit – even for close friends. I always say it and not once did anyone ever have a problem with it.

This cannot be stressed enough! Unfortunately, in this stage of galus, there have been too many incidents. Do NOT let your daughters babysit if the father is coming home without his wife.

I also instruct my daughter that if that happens despite our stipulation, she is to call me immediately and remain on the phone until she leaves. And yes, my daughter is very innocent – I simply told her that it’s not tzniusdig otherwise and she accepted it.

Two things:

Number one, can someone please show me one chareidi school that doesn’t teach basic math? I have lived here for almost 20 years and have not come across one.

Number two, can someone please tell me – if Yesh Atid et al do not have an agenda, how come Arab schools get to teach whatever they want and still keep their funding, but chareidi schools can’t?

Zdad and others who maintain the stance that “you live in a country, you have to abide by its laws”:

You are forgetting one crucial thing:

The original law of the State of Israel, the one signed by its founding father David Ben Gurion, states among other things that those who are in full-time learning are entitled to a deferment (if not an exemption, I don’t remember which) from army service. This “Status Quo Agreement” was signed on and agreed to by Ben Gurion and Agudas Yisroel, and it was against the backdrop of this document that the Declaration of Independence was drafted and signed 11 months later.

In the current brouhaha over “sharing the burden”, it is the secular – not the chareidim – who have shown disregard for the laws of the State of Israel by declaring “unconstitutional” the only document Israel ever had that remotely resembled a constitution.

If there is anyone showing unwillingness to abide by the laws of the country they live in, it is those who are demanding that yeshiva students be drafted, not those who are demanding that they be granted deferments.

I’ve never used the Magic Mill, but I have the Bosch for years and am very happy with it. I bake challah every week with 2+ kilo of flour which is about 5 pounds. If you do get it, definitely buy the stainless steel bowl. It’s also really good for big batches of cookie dough. I don’t use it for smaller batches or for cakes, though, so I can’t tell you how it performs for the lighter stuff.

TheFrumGuy – generally speaking, only close family remain for the mitzvah tantz, that’s no stirah to the mechitzah the rest of the time. Furthermore, in many communities, the kallah’s face is covered.

The source of the minhag is in the Machzor Vitri. But today, for all intents and purposes, it is a chassidish custom.

Gamanit, some families have the chosson and kallah with a gartel as well, although they usually fold it up so it is shorter.

OP – this is not a NY thing. Come to EY and you will see it, too. The chosson and kallah do not really dance; either they sway a bit from side to side or walk around in a circle.

BTW, as far as I remember, this is not the first thread on mitzvah tantz.

RBS Jew:

Chareidim don’t make anyone pay more. You would be paying the same amount of Arnona regardless of whether I get a 90% discount or none at all.

Zahavasdad, there are no food stamps or Section 8 in Israel. The basic Kupat Cholim “sal” is free for everyone. If you want more extensive coverage, you pay, and everyone pays the same amount up to 4 kids. Over four kids, the rest are free. Bituach Leumi payments are also the same for everyone. If one is working than it is deducted as a percentage of salary, if not then it is a flat rate.

Englishman: exactly. No family can live off what the government gives unless 1) at least one spouse is working at a nice job or 2) they are being supported by someone else. The myth of chareidim “living off the government” is just that – a myth. That is why in most chareidi families with 6 kids, the father is not in kollel. He may be a maggid shiur, a cheder rebbe, a rosh kollel, etc. – but he is working.

Mdd, “the chareidim” are not on the government’s payroll, at least not anymore than anyone else in this country. That’s the point you’re missing.

Men who learn in kollel are not the equivalent of a university student. They would be the equivalent of people who are in research or who are part of a think tank. Are they considered people who are not working? No. Why not? Because what it comes down to in the end is that the secular establishment views Torah learning as a waste of time, but research as a valid pursuit. So the secular establishment has no problem with the government supporting research and think tanks, but has a major problem with kollelim.

The kollel stipend is the only one that can be classified as benefitting chareidim alone. The child subsidy benefits anyone who qualifies. It is not based on income. If you make 5,000,000 shekel a year and have 2,3,4 or 5 children, you will get the same child subsidy as one who makes 5,000 shekel a year and has the same amount of children.

And I have another bit of news: The average Bnei Brak housewife might work as a programmer, but her husband is not in kollel. He is working, too – and most likely still does not have to pay income tax because they are not making enough to cross the threshold. And the kitzvat yeladim is not what is going to make the difference.

The myth that all chareidi men are in kollel is ridiculous. Among young couples, it might very well be that the majority of men are in kollel. But not in the chareidi community as a whole.

Zahavasdad, then your relatives are not at all typical of the average Israeli family, or even of the average American family that actually lives here on their own without family support.

Income taxes paid by chiloni families do nothing to support chareidi families. If anything, you might say that in cities like Yerushalayim, chilonim pay municipal taxes that fund services from which chareidim benefit. True. So what? Our municipal taxes fund things like the Batsheva Dance Troupe and the Israeli opera, tickets to which are heavily subsidized by the government.

My taxes funded the bailout of the kibbutzim, too. So?

What you are not getting is that 1) any chiloni family is welcome to have the same amount of children we have and get the exact same subsidy. They are entitled to it. It is their choice not to, and 2) That the average chareidi WORKING family makes far less than the average chiloni family, and the income tax breaks we get are the same they would get were they to live in our income bracket.

There is no subsidy that benefits chareidim specifically except for the $200 per month that is given to the kollelim. Period. Those who can afford to jet back and forth to the US are being jetted by their families, and if their parents can afford it, may Hashem bless them.

There is a lot of confusion on this topic.

The approximately $200 a month is correct. That is what is referred to as “datot”. That is what the government gives married men who are learning full time in kollel. Not one penny more. Kollelim that pay more are doing so with funds that the roshei kollel raise privately, and that have nothing to do with the government.

There is something else called “kitzvat yeladim”. This has nothing to do with being chareidi. It is an across-the-board monthly stipend that goes up according to the number of children the family has. It is not major money, but it helps. A family with 8 children gets about 1850 NIS per month, which is about $425-$450.

Obviously, chareidi families on the whole get more kitzvat yeladim than their secular counterparts, because they have more children. This stipend only goes up to age 18, by the way, meaning that for every child who turns 18, the stipend gets reduced.

Then there are tax breaks. These also apply equally, based on income and the number of children. There are income tax breaks, and then municipal tax breaks. These, too, have nothing to do with chareidim.

Is it true that chareidim pay less income tax than the rest of the population? Yes, obviously, because our income bracket is much lower and our birthrate is much higher. Any chiloni family is welcome to make the same income and have the same amount of children, and they will get the exact same tax break.

You can also call 144, hatzlacha with everything!!!!!

Hi Snowbunny!

I am so sorry, I did not see that the mods can’t give you my information.

Rabbi Leff lives in Moshav Mattityahu. He is the Rav there, my SIL lives there, too.

Mods, can I give you the info and you will pass it on to Snowbunny? Or is there some secure place I can post it? I just do not feel comfortable posting my SIL’s information on the Internet.

Hi there -regards from your other post! 🙂

I don’t know about Yerushalayim, there is one in Beitar called Yad Leah. I know that there is supposed to be a great one in Mattersdorf; unfortunately, I don’t know what it’s called but maybe another poster will help jog my memory.

If you can get a hold of a Madrich HaChareidi there is a whole gemach listing there in the orange pages.

Hatzlachah!

Snowbunny, you sound like such a special person! I wish I could get to know you – really! It is unclear from your post (or at least I didn’t “chap” it) – are you currently in EY or in the US?

Please forgive me if giving outright advice seems forward of me, I am only doing it because I care: If you are here in EY now, and you can find a Rav here who can guide you, I think it might make your life and your decision-making much easier. There are Rabbonim like R’ Zecharya Greenwald and R’ Meisels who are very caring people and who have experience with a very broad spectrum of girls (so you won’t have to feel that they might box you in). Their numbers can be found in any Yerushalayim phone book and probably in the Newcomers Guide, as well.

If helping and giving are what you are looking for in Sherut Leumi, there are plenty of places like Ezer MiZion, Yad Sarah and Zichron Menachem who are happy to get volunteers. As far as room and board, there are also families who have girls board with them in exchange for help with the kids, something that might also have the added advantage of getting an “inside look.”

Again, you sound like a very special person who has a tremendous amount of potential. May Hashem bless you with hatzlachah in all you do!!

I think that the poster who asked what the goal is behind Sherut Leumi was asking a good question. Is there a reason you would rather do that then continue your education?

I am asking because from what I hear, unless I am reading you wrong (if I am, I apologize), Peninim has a seminary that sounds as though it might be right up your alley. I have a niece who also does not fit a real mold, she is now at this sem and she is thrilled. She is not typical Beis Yaakov, yet MO is not for her, either. They are very accepting, very open-minded, very encouraging of questions.

If you think this might interest you, post me back and I will ask my SIL for info.

Whatever your decision, may you have much hatzlachah!!

I have no idea of specific shadchanim, but –

You might be able to find that type of boy in Ner Yisroel, and there are frum boys in YU – like ones from MO backgrounds who became more shtark but whose parents didn’t want them going to a black-hat yeshiva – who might fit into that category. If you can consider a boy who wants to learn for a few years and then work, you will probably find a larger pool in either NI or YU.

I have no idea how old you are, but maybe looking at an older age range might help?

May Hashem send you your bashert soon, and much hatzlachah!