Emunah, Bas-tzion, tziona, tikvah, na’ava, bruriah

@the little i know:

Amazing post! Very good points! i really enjoyed your post, i just read it twice then read it to my husband as well. 🙂 thanks!

there’s a very well-written response to the book by a satmar lady in the chronicles section of the jewish press.

based on the OP’s screen name, i don’t think she/he was trying to be a yentah, etc. It seems that as a shadchan s/he was wondering out loud if there are signs or whatnot to look out for while dating.

keeping far away from the topic of this particular couple, i can only imagine the pain of either a terrible marriage that causes one spouse to go off, or the terrible pain of a marriage that breaks up because one spouse no longer wants to be frum.

it is a punishment, and it is last resort. a child shouldn’t need and doesn’t want “opportunity to do quiet work”. i just think that, as the worst i’ll ever do if a child is disrupting my class enough, its rather mild. and i know that kids are put into my class being told, “if you can’t act like a fourth grader, sit in the third grade classroom” but they never look embarrassed or crushed. at all.

i can’t account for all principals that people have issues with. i personally cannot even think about my high school principal without getting upset. i treat my students pleasantly and with respect, and i get angry when i hear teachers screaming or demeaning their students. i just happen to think that this can be used as a consequence.

what would you suggest teachers do instead?

yes, i do and would send them to any convenient, supervised, quiet, boring location to do their work. it’s like a time-out; the purpose is not so much to punish as it is to make them desist disruptive behavior.

about the principal…i can’t really disagree with anything you said. but i used to teach in a different school (fifth grade, boys) where there was no fear of the principal (he was embarrassingly incompetent and served as a figurehead). though i was shocked the first time i saw this principal “in action” it seems to work without long-term effect. the kids are back on friendly terms with him the next day, and i see the high school boys are all friendly and at ease with him.

there ARE good schools and good teachers around!

any other teachers on here to weigh in opinions? i teach in an elementary boys yeshiva, and its very common place to send a boy down a grade for a while as a last resort punishment. personally, i am very careful not to speak harshly or not to embarrass a student, and i’ve never noticed that this is a super-harsh or embarrassing punishment. they see their brother/cousin/friend and do their work in isolation and boredom. again, i’ve never seen a boy distressed by it. its a shlep and they have to tell their parents, but thats it.

now if i would threaten to send them to the principal, they literally cry and turn all sorts of colors. so why is it so bad?

@ lemonysnicket:

don’t know who you’ve seen doing that but its not a new thing. Persians do this as a sign of respect, generally after shaking an elder’s hand, or after shaking a Kohen’s hand, etc. it’s not meant to be cool – its a respectful gesture from a culture where men kiss on the cheek in greeting, and an elderly person (not just a gadol, but anyone who is elderly and respected) is kissed on the forehead and hand.

i think that the comparison between the names and the modernized clothing is not fair. though both mens and women’s clothing has changed since way back when, we have for the most part (short skirts and shaitels, esp long ones, notwithstanding) retained our mesorah of tznius. this was always the accepted derech — is there any mekor for saying otherwise? even the chassidish levush dates back only to pre-war europe, when they made a stand and refused to adopt the short jackets of the time.

jewish names are kadosh. i agree with the OP – both my sons have somewhat uncommon (not strange though) torah names that are hard to pronounce – if at some point they are forced to adopt some kind of nickname to survive college/business/etc that’s their choice, but i wouldn’t put the name on them.

i recently heard in a shiur that it applies even to women re: looking at pritzus. the speaker was not saying that this is to prevent attraction and “being together” but rather just not looking at prusty stuff. the example given was magazine covers in pharmacies and groceries.

the speaker quoted someone (sorry dont remember) as saying that even a women who averts her eyes from pritzus creates a sha’as rachamim where she can say a tefillah right then.

also, don’t confuse good vs evil and right vs wrong with TRUE and FALSE which was state of the world before Adam’s sin.

the nazi’s were wrong (ie, immoral) and they were evil. YES people are qualified to say such things — we are told in the Torah to do “hatov vhayashar b’aynay Hashem”– we are to do good and right things, and to show the goyim also.

so although it was bad, wrong, evil, etc. it was also TRUE – it objectively needed to happen.

read R’Miller and what he writes about why the holocaust happened. he doesn’t mince words when he says why we deserve it.

and i think you meant ramchal, not maharshal.

actually, we know: “vgam es hagoy asher ya’avducha, dan anochi” (i’m not near a chumash, but i think that’s correct). when Hashem tells avraham about galus mitzrayim, which was horrible torture and yes, it was from G-d and we needed it, He also says right there and then that the nation who does it WILL be punished.

yes, Hashem decides at times that we need to be punished, and leaves us “open” to our enemies. but who said the nazis/mitzriyim/yivanim/etc. are the ones who have to do it?

so, while situation is RIGHT as is anything that happens in our G-d run world, the perpetrators are EVIL and yes are punished.

yovel = jubilee

anthropomorphism = if i recall correctly, this is like “lashon benai adam” – when G-d (or anything non human) is described in human terms.

even if he really is in seruv now, can one keep going to beis din till one gets the seruv he (she) is after??

the origonal din torah from the city they lived in was in favor of the husband not giving the get. as was the second beis din they went to, in the city that the girl was originally from. just because they strung together a third beis din from their rabbinic friends and put a seruv, the original p’sak is not disregarded.

besides, i believe that it is a halacha of bais din that the prosecuting party must file the case in the bais din of the city where the other person (defendant) lives. in a marriage or business partnership, the case must be filed where the marriage or business was.

so it could very well be that he wasn’t halachically required to show up at any bais din outside of where they lived (and where he continues to live). i know such was the case with a family member of mine.

there was a case in E”Y several weeks (months?) ago where a very young chassidish man was married off to a “shawl” girl (those who have started wearing the muslim-like chador).

after the wedding she refused to be toivel without her chador, and moved back to her mother’s house without accepting the get.

the boy remarried within a few months, causing an uproar about polygamy…but she did accept the get. 🙂

the recent demonstration that someone mentioned several posts back is a terrifying example of men being victimized by the “natural” assumption that the woman is always the victim.

i know no details of the case (not even the names of the ppl/families involved), nor which rabbanim are involved and telling ppl to demonstrate on the MIL’s front lawn, but i do KNOW that the husband in this case is acting on daas torah (he’s not in NY state). does his mother deserve ppl with “stop domestic violence” sings on her front lawn? have the rabbanim here in NY who allowed this contacted the husband or the beis din in his city? or does everyone pity the “poor stranded single mother” regardless?

i think its high time that men were treated fairly in abuse and agunah accusations.

i agree with Popa. my cousin went through a terrible divorce several years ago…basically she wouldn’t speak to anyone, contact anyone, just up and disappeared after 3 months of marriage. she had the baby and didn’t contact anyone. turned out at the end she was having an super-emotional (prob. not physical) relationship with someone in a “madrich” position (she was a BT).

long story short, my cousin was advised my beis din (when she wouldn’t show) to continue with legal divorce without her presence and wait on the get till visitation (he had never seen his daughter-she wouldn’t let) and stuff were settled.

not saying its “ok” but…ppl tend to forget that men can also be abused and mistreated! and with daas torah, yes it can sometimes be used as leverage.

in Yichave Da’at, R’ Ovadia Yosef’s shul in har nof, they also ask that the women leave right during ketores, and the men linger after alainu with announcements and singing adon olam. not enforced, but i think there are signs asking very nicely.

i believe it has a lot to do with attitude. for example with regard to dancing at chasunas, when i got married (i’m persian) i refused to have even sephardic sounding hebrew music because i believe that the way those in my generation (i’m in my 20’s) see that type of dancing is as a chance to be provocative, rebellious, and cool. however i have gone to events and seen pure, pure rabbis and rebbetzins dancing sephardic with no provacativeness, and none of the trief feeling–it even looks refined.

i’ve heard that before the bas kol announces “bas ploni l’ploni” all the malachim give “suggestions” regarding the shidduch of the neshama. before a shidduch is made, the neshama has to have all those names suggested. be’ezras Hashem, this flurry of activity and suggetions will hasten the time till you meet your zivug amiti.

we have gedolim for a reason. hatzola has been selflessly and perfectly providing for the community for years going solely on advice from their core group of rabbonim. no radio talk show host, council member, (or coffeeroom comment 🙂 ) will make a difference because this is not some political program trying to gain public approval.

its a frum chessed organization, and as such it answers only to the knowledgeable and experienced rabbonim who head it. and thats how it should be, imho.

i heard in R’ Hutner’s name that how could it be Eisav was a rasha from the womb? (if he was considered a yisrael mumar, that means potentially he could have been a tzaddik. yet we see that from the womb he’s struggling to get out when Rivka passes by bais avoda zara. where’s his bechira?)

he answers that Eisav was not a rasha from the womb, nobody is. in fact, Eisav wanted to go and destroy the avoda zara. that was his machlokes with yaakov, to actively destroy avoda zara or to just learn.

then he was born and the rest, as they say, is history. 🙂 heard from R’ Dovid Heber in Baltimore

though it wasn’t addressed to me (and i’m a married-with-kids-adult) the reply to Gumball stung when i read it! this topic has been discussed before and regardless whether anyone thinks it appropriate or whatever, children/teens are allowed by coffeeroom rules to post.

apologies in advance if i read into it to much and you didn’t intend to be harsh.

lol bpt! “one to work and one to clean”

may i add that there’ll double the “income” as well — two father-in_laws to support!

they can even use the thought of less support to sell the idea to the prospective father-in-laws…

“is the fact that you can’t afford full support holding your daughter back? sign up for the new game changing ‘2-for-1’ shidduch initiative and cut your support costs in half!!!”