Enough Divorces

Mammela, we can logically assume that children from divorce homes are more likely to learn from their parents mistakes than to merely copy their parents patterns of behaviour, in the same way that most people naturally learn from their past mistakes and its consequences.

On the other hand, children from dysfunctional homes that their parents have not gotten divorced but have also not worked out the issues between them, are more likely to get divorced from their own marriages, as they may tend to copy their parent/parents behaviour while not having the advantage of learning from the consequences of divorce, unlike children from actually divorced homes who have likely internalized that learning experience the hard way, like you noted.

Thanks Haimy for addressing this issue. Our community unfortunately encourages divorce when things get hard, whereas the secular world are not as influenced from the feminist movement at this time, as they have been through it already, unlike our community which has recently begun to adopt the feminist trend. As CT Lawyer wrote, our community follows the secular world albeit after a few decades.

I agree that there are situations that are not workable. However, I hope other posters would agree that there are unfortunately many situations that would have been workable had it been addressed early on with a competent mutual couple’s therapist, but had unfortunately ended with divorce on account of an individual therapist who addressed only one side, seeing things in black and white, thereby causing an escalation of the conflict to the point of no return.

Avrum md,

1. Verbally abusive is a relative term and covers a wide spectrum.

2. A spouse’s reaction, tolerance and understanding towards her/his spouse’s behaviour has more to do with her/his own personality, issues, and communication skills, than it has to do with who’s right or wrong.

3. Dirty socks and dishes most likely include underlying passive agressiveness as a way of countering the spouse’s previous behavior, which indicates weak communication skills s on her/his part.

Actually you are the one making DANGEROUS comments, as it’s your attitude that is leading to an alarming divorce rate in our community to the detriment of yiddeshe kinder.

Shmatta is a relative term. Everyone in a conflict claims themselves as a shmatta and victim.

To Lightbrite and many other posters here.

Divorce is a complicated sugya, since intimate relationships are complex. Of course there are cases where one spouse is so difficult to deal with that it may be almost impossible to live with. However, that being said, the fact still remains that most marriages are workable through the proper attitude and the right communication skills.

Since there are cases where divorce may be warranted, therefore any spouse seeking divorce can easily (and will) justify himself/herself that he/she is from that minority, and will also portray his/her spouse as being from that minority, whether true or not.

The general public has also become more sympathetic to divorce, and many therapists easily encourage it (with the approval of rabbanim who merely rely on the therapists), so therefore it has become socially and psychologically easier to divorce. So rather than going the harder route of putting a sincere effort to work things out, we are seeing many people with workable marriages opt for divorce, which explains the dramatic increase of divorces in our community.

In today’s standards letting things pass and being a ???? is shunned on and considered being abused. This applies to both spouses. So thanks to all the posters who infer that the Torah’s moral concepts are old-fashioned. It seems like many of you opt for the easy way out, and rather than work on your middos to benefit yourself and the family, you claim to be doing the ‘healthy’ thing and defend your ‘abused ego’ while absorbing the cost of destroying your families (very selfish).

I will agree that there are rare cases when a spouse is a real jerk, but that is not the most usual case.

DY,

So basically you’re saying that if a wife wakes up one morning and says she wants out, then the husband should get beaten until he gives her a get? Did you just throw the shulchan aruch in the trash? According to your post, a woman has no marital obligation so long as she uses the “A”-Abuse word, but a husband has all the obligations including divorce?

Let there be 100 RABBIS siding with his wife demanding a get. The facts won’t change- if there was never couples therapy invested in addressing the issues then the TORAH says wife is not allowed to even ask for a get. And husband is not allowed to give a get if there are children involved.

Limod,

Since we have concluded that at this stage there is hope that the marriage can be salvaged through therapy, then to discuss hypothetically in a situation where this is not the case, is only serving to discourage Lenny from his efforts. Would you like to be in his situation?

I don’t want to engage in an argument with some posters here, but as I’ve implied in the other thread, it’s actually admirable for Lenny to be eager to put in an effort to work out the issues at therapy and not just c”v throw in the towel. It doesn’t seem like Lenny is refusing to give a get for ego purposes or financial considerations, but rather because he has a sincere goal of making the marriage work out for both sides through therapy. A ‘get refusal’ refers to men who have already gave up on the marriage and are withholding a get for ulterior motives. Anyone who doesn’t recognize this distinction is probably blinded with feminism, which has unfortunately infiltrated into our community.

Limod Ulelomed

I will side with Lenny on this matter. Marriages can be worked on through professional help. It seems like there was never a serious mutual effort to work on the issues of this marriage. So to speculate at this point if the marriage is viable or not is premature. Lenny claims that the Rabbanim he spoke with are not optimistic that the marriage is viable; however, in truth rabbanim cannot determine this from one session with a couple. I would leave that determination for a therapist who has invested months of mutual therapy to conclude whether or not the relationship is viable or not.

Many therapists don’t have the required skills needed to address these serious situations. Also, many therapists are known to be biased in favor of women. It’s imperative to go to therapists who have a track record of saving marriages.