enlightenedjew

“1.written by a goy vs written by a Jew” So?”

My point was that a book really can’t be “kosher” or “non-kosher” just because it’s written by a Jew. There are a number of books I know of written by Jews that have LOTS of objectionable material and themes.

“1.written by a goy vs written by a Jew” So?

“2.implied immorality. even in S Holmes there is often intrigue, murder, because of a woman, because of lust etc.” See below, Speckled Band plot summary, from Wikipedia. Yes, it involves attempted murder and can be scary for kids, but that’s not any different from many Jewish books. Anything problematic here? Oh, the name “Stoner”. Yeah, that’d be a problem, maybe 😉 I’d say there’s a great mussar that can be learned from the story…

“A young woman named Helen Stoner consults the detective Sherlock Holmes about the suspicious death of her sister, Julia. One night, after conversing with her twin sister about her big day, Julia suddenly reappeared in Helen’s room, struggling to breathe, and died soon afterwards. Julia had been engaged to be married and, had she lived, would have received an annual 250 GBP annuity from her late mother’s income. Now Helen is engaged to be married. Holmes’ investigation of the mother’s estate reveals that its value has decreased significantly, and if both daughters had married, Dr. Roylott, Helen’s ill-tempered and violent stepfather, would be left with very little, while the marriage of even one would be crippling. Therefore, the main suspicion falls on him.

After Helen leaves, Dr. Roylott comes to visit Holmes, having traced his stepdaughter. He demands to know what Helen has said to Holmes, but Holmes refuses to say. Dr. Roylott bends an iron poker into a curve in an attempt to intimidate Holmes, but Holmes is unaffected as he maintains a rather jovial demeanor during the encounter. After Roylott leaves, Holmes straightens the poker out again, thus showing that he is just as strong as the doctor.

Having arranged for Helen to spend the night somewhere else, Holmes and Watson sneak into her bedroom without Dr. Roylott’s knowledge. Holmes says that he has already deduced the solution to the mystery, and this test of his theory turns out to be successful. They hear the whistle, and Holmes also sees what the bell cord is really for, although Watson does not. Julia’s last words about a “speckled band” were in fact describing “a swamp adder, the deadliest snake in India”. The venomous snake had been sent to Julia’s room by Dr. Roylott to murder her. After the swamp adder bit Julia he called off the snake with the whistling, which made the snake climb up through the bell cord, disappearing from the scene.

Now the swamp adder is sent again to kill Julia’s sister Helen. Holmes attacks the snake, sending it back through an air ventilator connected to the next room. The angry snake bites Dr. Roylott instead, and, within seconds, he is dead. Grimly noting that he is indirectly responsible for Dr. Roylott’s death, Holmes remarks that he is unlikely to feel much remorse because of it.”

Feivel-

OK. Let’s say you have a Jewish book about someone solving a mystery. There’s nothing inherently “jewish” about it, maybe the protagonist will scream “oy vey!” instead of “oh no!”, perhaps, but that’s the extent of it. I’m sure these books abound. Except for the names, it’s a standard, plain vanilla ol’ mystery read. It conveys no real values of any kind – the author just wanted to tell a story and make a few $$$.

Then you have, say, a Sherlock mystery. Say, “The Speckled Band” (ok, that may be a little scary for kids) – a story that contains no objectionable material, and conveys no real values at all.

Real difference?

Agreed that a person needs to be careful what he/she reads – but there are many, many, many good “non-jewish” books out there that contain nothing abhorrent. There are millions of books out there! I think what some people don’t realize is that the world of books extend FAR beyond the political/espionage thrillers and trashy romance/mystery novels that they think constitute “goyish books”. What about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle? Nothin wrong with Sherlock Holmes. Lord of the Rings?? The Hobbit?? Nothin in there. Marshall McLuhan’s groundbreaking Understanding Media? Nothin in there (nonfic). Agatha Christie was mentioned before – nothin in any of her books. There’s a world of both fiction and nonfiction books out there that are very innocuous. I’d say the overarching issue, need there be one, with book-reading would be bitul z’man.

Plus, many of what we’re terming here “Jewish books” are really not very good reads or written well. Many of these books are poorly written; they simply tell a story but with canned, wooden dialogue and almost no character or background depth whatsoever.

Havesomeseichel:

“Joseph – Kosher food is more expensive in out of town areas. So are sefarim, tziyus clothing shops, frum items… many are shipped from NY. In some areas, housing is also more expensive.”

I think Joseph was absolutely correct here. Most out of town areas are NOT more expensive than NY – avg NY property taxes, housing costs, local taxes ALONE wipe out incrementally higher costs for kosher food. Plus, it depends on your lifestyle – yes, if you eat steak and potatoes every night it may cost more for kosher food. But housing alone can cost at least $100,000 * mortgate rate less over a 30 year loan, outside NY. NYS/NYC and NJ have some of the highest labor rates in the country, making many things here way more expensive (home/auto maintenance is one example that comes to mind). Those two states also have two of the highest property, state, and local tax rates in the country. States like Texas (with flourishing Jewish communities in Dallas and Houston) and Florida have a state income tax rate of 0%, alongside (generally) lower property taxes. I guesstimate it could cost anywhere from $15K-$35K less ANNUALLY to live outside NY, depending where, (save LA or Chicago) for your average frum NYer family.

Just curious – if a particular neighborhood frum store owner is known to be going through personal financial stress, do ppl here think that paying a higher price is said store is like tzedaka/maaser??

Chukas hagoyim – not

Common courtesy/kibud – yes

Flatbush – “sisy:… a bochur and an avreich should both be learning full time but maybe you forgot your makom and the fact that someone (your parents, or your in laws) are supporting you even through these tough times.”

What does this have to do with anything? And isn’t that narrow minded?

Anyway, I think that we all have too little trust and faith in ourselves. The internet, cell phone, TV, telephone, these are all mediums and not content and are not problematic in and of themselves, the content is. If people can generally self regulate, then maybe a blanket ban is not the best way to react and approach these technological innovations. By way of analogy – eating too much will most probably lead to obesity which can have all sorts of issues attached to it, from health (ushmartem es nafshoseichem) to lashon hara (“hey, did you see how fat ploni got?) erc, etc. Do we ban food?? No we try to self regulate our intake.

Women have enough to worry about with their own mitzvos, there’s no need to impose another hardship on them. You should see the shopping my mother used to bring home from the supermarket, like 10-15 shopping bags full of stuff. You’re telling me she should take that to the bus? Or go shopping more often and take time from the 1,000,000 other things she needs to do?

Nobody here has yet said what disadvantages DRIVING has over other ways of getting from point A to B (bus, walking, scooter, etc). That statement from R’ Wosner needs clarification as well. What was the context? Did he mean ALL women, everywhere? IF no context and yes, all women, I think that a pretty myopic thing to say what with frum women scattered over millions of miles of terra firma in tens of thousands of different living arrangements and situations.

Joseph-

I don’t think it’s possible to emotionally and financially handle THAT many kids!!

Maybe part of this galus that we’re in is the reduced ability to handle that many children – which should make us all the more so daven for the geula?

How’s this, Charlie Brown-

Warm today, huh? I guess I’ll take this opportunity to go outside for a walk, despite the fact that there’ll be women in untznius clothing there, that doesn’t really bother me when all I really want to do is walk, it’s almost like a p’sik raisha d’lo nicha lei… though I do prefer cold weather every once in a while, you know, I like to go skiing every so often. I like to get a room at the lodge and curl up in front of those great flat-panel TVs they have in the rooms. I’m actually still in the ‘lessons’ phase right now; I’m pretty good though my instructor had to hold me steady last time i was on the slopes – she said that I could’ve slipped down that slope and nearly killed myself ch’v had she not been there to grab me!

That’s pretty amazing though that it’s warm. I can connect to the internet using my cell, so yesterday at mincha in our office building I got bored during chazaras hashatz and checked the weather and they said it’d be freezing? I think I’ll text my friend and see if he saw something different on last night’s News @ 10 weather report. Speaking of which, I’d recommend Al Roker’s cookbook to all CRers here, you know you can make those non-kosher recipes kosher, just google ‘ham substitutes’ or something like that. Or change your facebook status to somethink like “ploni is wondering how to substitute something kosher for shrimp, anyone have ideas text me”.

OK i’ve had enough

ALL IN GOOD FUN EVERYONE, ALL IN GOOD FUN 😉 😉 😉

Yossiea-

I consider myself MO in ideology, but in response to your statement:

“Wasn’t it R’ Aharon who compromised halacha when he set up a kollel system in Lakewood?”

I just can’t stomach those words. I’d side a bit here with Joseph’s view of this statement (although I wouldn’t go as far as “rasha” language) – you just cannot put something like that out there about R’ Aharon zt’l, without whom it is quite possible there’d be very, very little Torah learning in the US, without AT LEAST explaining yourself!!

Sorry, just saw this and had to ask 😉

YW Editor, where does “Key Master” come from?

I also just want to weigh in on the wedding ring issue. R’ Moshe Feinstein writes in an anaf of a teshuva that I read through (I forgot where, I will try to find it) that a man wearing a ring that his wife gives him is NOT chukas ha goyim (that is, if it was NOT part of a double ring ceremony) it is permissible because it’s just “noy”, like a man wearing cufflinks or a good watch as jewelry. He also writes that the issur of a double ring ceremony is more related to the takana that was put in place regarding mayim she’uvim than chukas hagoyim. Basically, he felt that it was very possible and real an observer of the ceremony would conclude that it was ALSO a kiyum kedushin should a woman give a man a ring – he’d go and permit this or do it himself and be living then b’issur.

Thanks to all for the replies. Joseph, squeak, thanks for the clarification! I can relate a story of my own, though, and would like to speak to the story quoted by squeak. My father happened to be at the Aguda Convention about 25 years or so ago. He was davening shacharis at a later minyan and saw R’ Moshe zt’l folding up his tallis to leave an earlier minyan. My father (who speaks a somewhat fair yiddish and can get by) felt this was an opportunity to precious to pass up and decided to go and give R’ Moshe sholom aleichem, in and of itself a learning experience. I don’t know quite how their conversation went (I think my father mentioned his brother was a posek), but at one point R’ Moshe told my father that the job of a posek (today) is to be maikil when he can. My father remembers this vividly (after all, it WAS R’ Moshe! You don’t forget that).

Let’s go back to squeak’s story. I’d respond to it by saying that it’s possible, knowing now what R’ Moshe’s beliefs were vis a vis paskening, that HAD R’ Moshe been contacted he MAY have changed or modified his p’sak for that community, if halachically possible in order . Squeak’s story doesn’t specify whether the Rov asked R’ Moshe for this particular p’sak for this particular group, whether the p’sak was generally issued through Igros Moshe and thus could’ve been issued on a case basis, whether R’ Moshe asked the psak be disseminated to the “hamon am”, or other scenarios. Who even said that this Rov was correct in HIS assessment of what he should or shouldn’t be asking R’ Moshe?? To me, squeak’s story doesn’t necesarily prove that decisions on matters of practical policymaking can’t be made by the gedolim for the klal without any input from the klal or experts within the klal acting on its behalf.

Additionally, please pay attention to my original point. I wondered whether manhigim can take input from the klal at all in making what are essentially policy decisions. I wasn’t asking whether manhigim should solicit opinions from laypeople on strict matters of halacha. Do we need to listen and obey without question should gedolim decide that investing in GM or ExxonMobil is a good idea for our mosdos to make some extra money or should we as a klal make suggestions and give input? Should we accept as an article of faith a gadol’s decision to build a yeshiva in a particular location in a particular city or suggest to the gadol that there may be a more advantageous site due to certain factors that the gadol might not have known about? This list could go on and on and on. The point is that nobody is omniscient and nobody knows absolutely everything there is to know in this wide world. In matters of halacha, our gedolim do indeed know best. In, say, more mundane matters, maybe also yes, then again maybe gedolim need input from experts or others to help them arrive at a decision that’s best for the klal.

tzippi – thanks for the comment – by “low paying professions” I did mean klai kodesh kollel, chinuch, etc, but I do feel that what I said equally applies to making a decision about lower paying professions that have nothing to do with yahadus. I was not making judgments, nor bashing kollel/klai kodesh, etc, ch’v, just making an observation of reality and I hope my words were carefully chosen so as not to seem so. I meant that a person should probably stop and think if they really can accustom themselves to the lifestyle that they probably will need to lead. If you truly can do that that is a sacrifice of gashmius that should be looked to for chizuk. But when making that decision I think people need to be careful and intellectually honest with themselves, that’s all.

Oomis1105 – thanks. I am not trying to pass judgment about those who are on any form of welfare – we US taxpayers have made a social decision to allow these programmes to exist to help those who find themselves in in need. Its making a conscious decision TO ENTER a lifestyle or profession by saying “oh, well i can always dip into welfare” that I feel is wrong.

Joseph- I will preface my comment on you post by saying that I am not really a “flamer” when it comes to blogging or forum posting. Having said that, I do not appreciate the tone of sarcasm in your post. I have some very passionate feelings about this topic but tried to bend as far backwards as I could in presenting my thoughts on the matter in a tone and with language that would be the least offensive or misconstrued. I am a human being, with failings, and may have let passion get the better of me in previous posts, but I tried hard in this post to do better. I probably wasn’t 100% successful in this regard, but I tried pretty hard. You obviously jumped to a conclusion from a screen name, then read the post with an obviously strong agenda. It appears as if you may have zoomed through the entire post before zeroing in on what you perceive to be a slight on our gedolim and manhigim, but missed something that I wrote that could be particularly salient to your point of concern: “This is something that is a very serious matter and should be of grave concern (unless it already is)…” There’s a reason why I wrote that at the very beginning. I’ve been a ‘lurker’ here for some time and noticed in your posts that jumping to a conclusion a little prematurely because of an agenda seems to be somewhat of a signature. I don’t think that’s a fair way to engage in debate nor is it, in due respect, a fair way to respond to fellow Jews. Why do you feel the urge to be combative? And, given my inference from your post that gedolim have come up with answers, HAVE our manhigim said anything yet (and I DO NOT mean this to be critical, just an innocent question) – is it a BAD thing for manhigim to take any input at all from the klal????? I’m sitting here scratching my head while trying to figure out what exactly prompted the tone and wording of your response.

To the editor-

Thank you for posting on this topic. This is something that is a very serious matter and should be of grave concern (unless it already is) to our manhigim and community as a whole, whether “modern”, yeshivish” or any other stripe.

I’ve been thinking about this topic since I saw and article in the Monsey publication “The Advocate” that stated that Gov. Paterson was considering cutting funding to yeshivas in NYS by 41% due to budget cuts. Leaving aside the issue of why yeshivos should even be getting funding under separation of church and state or why yeshiva tuition is so high if aid is forthcoming, it got me thinking about the issue of self-financing our Torah study.

My thoughts on this issue are similar to the original poster’s (OP). A general trend towards making a go at Toraso umnaso is, by itself, a good thing and a good indicator of the religious health of Orthodoxy worldwide. The problem is funding. If the trend is true and continues, financing that life choice will get harder and harder throughout the generations. The only reason we can enjoy so many people learning Torah is due to the current generosity of people, by and large, of a previous generation, of a time when widespread kollel learning and mosdos in every corner of Orthodoxy was a distant pipe dream, a time when most people worked and when therefore the likelihood of producing people with the financial means to give support was much greater.

The pool of tzedaka dollars available from that generation will dry up, and with an increasing trend towards a kollel, klai kodesh, or chinuch lifestyles, that pool will not be refreshed adequately. The workers of the Yissachar-Zevulun equation will increasingly be asked to subsidise those who no longer enjoy that support, creating financial strain on an laready strained segment and suppressing financial contribution to the ever-dwindling pool of funds available. The illegal defrauding of state and federal government aid programmes (HUD, Medicaid, tax evasion) will surge (out of necessity, I do understand) and will create terrible chillul H”. This is a scenario that is not impossible.

What to do? It’s not my place to dictate what should be done for everybody, but this will be a community problem and needs solving via achdus – communal concern and input no matter what your frum stripe. So here’s some suggestions:

-Kollelim and yeshivos may consider being more selective in whom they admit. It needs to be discerned who really and truly has the ability and will to involve themselves in the lifestyle one must accustom themselves to.

-Gedolim may want to consider suggesting a needs assessment before soliciting funds and breaking ground for new mosdos. There may not be a need for a “kollel/yeshia/mosad/shul” on every corner. I do humbly suspect that some of these are the product of poor planning for need and really exist because somebody wants the kavod of being called a “rosh kollel”. I know that’s harsh but I think is reality.

-Gedolim and manhigim may want to try to shift the focus onto familial responsibility in decision-making. Parents have the responsibility to provide parnassa for their families, period. Relying on government programs whether legitimately or not is NOT a lechatchila option when making crucial decisions and should be treated as an OPTION OF ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT, when a legitimate, responsible attempt has been made at supporting a family, regardless of how one goes about that support. Put another way, it’s unthinkable to us that a person decides to go into a known low -income profession lechatchila and says “well, I have no financial worries because there’s always the tzedaka box that I can raid”. I firmly believe that making a decision to learn, etc with the intention on relying on government programs is a form of stealing, both from the government (a strongly possible issur – someone can clarify) and from fellow Jewish taxpayers (a very grave, definite issur). How can a person be incredibly machmir on, say, kashrus, while justify stealing from the cookie jar of government programs that were never meant to be used as a payroll?

In brief, my own personal opinion is that we need to be intellectually honest and able to respond to realities around us. Parents and potential parents need to be responsible and consider all options and how they’d deal with their consequences before making decisions.

Are you allowed to “profit” from holiday sales or enjoy your day off from work? It strikes me that that could be assur – if christmas is a holiday within an avoda zara calendar and a sale is going on because of it then… well…

AND

Can a kosher bakery sell “holiday” stuff relating to it?

What is the reason that we need to be saying tehillim vis a vis Mr. Obama?

No. Not takanos in the traditional sense. Rabbanim can say what they want, and express da’as Torah opinion and concern. But the idea of trying to regulate one’s way out of a problem is always a bad idea. The flip side of the issue should not be ignored – people need to learn to have less kin’ah to what “the Joneses” are doing and be responsible and make weddings they can afford!!

I understand bein_hasedorim’s post, 2)bnei Torah wear black & white because

they are respectable, & should dress appropriately,

Lawyers, etc. businessmen, (old school that is)

But personally, B&W always scared me on a personal level. Dress for many (tho not all) people is naturally a very personal and expressive inyan. We have so many guidelines on how to dress (tznius, not flashy, etc) that color is one way we can express ourselves individually while still maintaining dignity and uniformity as a nation. I personally frequently wear more color (shirts, ties) on shabbos or yom tov because of the way i feel and my natural tendency to express through dress (and I feel B&W all the time is just plain BOOORRRRIIINNNGG) but this is my own opinion and personal taste, others express their individuality in different ways, so B&W can work for them.

Pashuteh Yid makes a good point that makes me feel the need to post something that I’ve thought about for a long time:

“It is too long for now, but the Chareidi world is very frightened about anything that will cause the kids to go off the derech. What they do not realize, is that the hysterical fear itself is what is really causing the kids to go off. It is mamash like living in a witch-hunt. I don’t know how one can take it living in certain neighborhoods. I am willing to bet that the Vaad Hatznius will lead to less tznius on the whole, as kids and families snap under the pressure, and go their own way.”

I’d go so far as to amend the post from “the Chareidi world” to “the Ashkenazi world”.

Ashkenazic culture as a whole seems far, far more paranoid, frightened, and guilty about this than does Sefardic culture. Has anyone noticed (anecdotally, mind you) a lack of severe REBELLIOUS behavior amongst non-religious Sefardim? Their “freier” generally still maintain a strong Jewish identity, and behave far more traditionally (i.e., they will pop into shul, wear tefillin, etc now and then) than freier Ashkenazim. The posionous acrimony one finds between frei or “frei-ish” and frum Ashkenazim does not seem to exist on the same level amongst Sefardim.

Why is this? Why does it seem that Ashkenazi minhagim & practices seem a bit (sometimes more than a bit) more stringent, rigid, and formulaic than their Sefardi counterparts? I believe that historical circumstance plays a large role here, NOT necessarily halacha per se. Ashkenazim went through hideous torture, persecution, and bloodshed for thousands of years at the hands of mainly Christians and Nazi-influenced societies. The natural sociological reaction to such a history could be reactionary conservatism, that is to say an extreme emphasis on religious and cultural preservation; Asheknazi culture , practice, and general approach and outlook to Jewish life became somewhat more rigid, insular, and formulaic as a result. Deviation in the slightest from even non-halachic practice & minhag became thoroughly discouraged and considered as almost a deviation from d’oraisa halachos itself, all to ensure that the Jewish faith continue to hold together under even the most extreme physical persecution and emotional duress.

Sefardim never had such a long history of intense, bloody, and constant persecution as did their Ashkenazic brethren (aside from the Inquisition in the 15th century) because in part they lived mostly under non-Christian rulers whose attempts at persecution and intimidation were only sporadic in nature – is it any accident that the Golden Age of Jewry in Spain occurred under Moorish stewardship of that country? Sefardi culture and approach to living a Torah life took on a different, “looser” flavor as a result.

Some random examples that come to mind:

1. Many Sefardim have a formula for havdala but play with the wording and insert some personal tefilos within the havdala tefila ITSELF – something that would be considered unthinkable for Ashkenazim. Ashkenazim generally frown on free-form prayer within the davning structure.

2. Sefardim are generally more accepting, on the whole, of fellow Jews whose religious observance may or may be more or less strict than their own (I’d venture to say that one doesn’t find shul divisions by Sefardim as one does by Ashkenazim – do people really find “yeshivishe” and “modern” labels on Sefardi shuls?).

3. R’ Yehudah Ha-Levi wrote many beautiful piyutim and tefilos and was an incredible holy person – who also happened to be a philosopher and secular poet. The Rambam was a philosopher who admired Aristotle (but understood Aristotles flaws and limitations vis a vis HKBH).

I could go on and on and on…

Food for thought then – Pashuteh Yid wrote that “hysterical” fear of assimilation and it’s manifestation in “chareidi” (I say possibly “Ashkenazi”) practices can have the OPPOSITE effect – to drive young people to more bitter and vicious resentment towards Judaism. I’d agree, but I’d also argue that that resentment wouldn’t be against Judaism per se, rather, subconsciously, against the specific Asheknazi approach or weltaunschaung WITHIN Yahadus. Is it possible then that the Ashkenazi outlook, approach, and culture, born and developed in the crucible of persecution from Constantine the Great in the 4th century C.E. up until the Holocaust era, has a little less relavance in our world today, where the bloody persecution and hate exist on a FAR more diminished level than they did in years & centuries past? Does an ultra-conservative approach as reaction to then-current circumstances (constant physical and mental persecution) still apply or is effective when those circumstances no longer really exist, to nearly the same extent?

Just food for the brain to chew on. Comments?

jent1150-

“Also, you say men go with short pants,also nit klug geret…those men who wear short pants usually their wives wear pants ,also shott ones and sleeveless so whats your complaint…”

How dare you generalize like that!! Nameless, I agree with you one hundred percent. We men have no idea what it’s like; it’s easy for us to criticize when we don’t have the same level of obligation as do women. How DARE us men presume to criticize when we cannot understand or say that this part of yahadus is more important than that.

And proudjew – “Give me a break, Why can n=men (sic) dress in the hottest days with suits & hats, Torah is Torah. (sic) & not only when its nice & cool outside.” How dare you equate that with adhering to tznius – since when do men HAVE to do this??

Sorry, I meant I agree with Mariner.

Rabbiofberlin, I agree with you fully. Believe me, I think that there are far to many people who are learning and taking mamon tzibur and either not do not live up to their potential or simply don’t belong in that environment.What I meant to say was that there IS a vital and important need for learners, yechidai segulah so to speak, but one needs to do a thorough cheshbon hanefesh before contemplating full time kollel.

Thanks.