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Sounds like we have entered the loony zone where any and all theories of how the constitution works that ujm concocts is worthy of dicussion.
Let’t make it simple. Ujm you are simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Trump, Giuliani, Powell, McEnany, and Ellis are also wrong, wrong, wrong wrong. There is nothing else to say. Losing in court 60 times, including 2 losses in the Supreme Court, means I am not saying wrong enough here.
So pontification about how if you want to help Americans you should make a thin bill, suddenly goes out the window the moment you think you can score a partisan political victory, even at the expense of people you are claiming to want to help.
Fine, like I have said on other places, the GOP lacks principle and is simply focused on retaining power at all costs.
Second what Syag says!
To be honest, I have only really seen the middah of hate driving a person, and people so filled with it, when it comes to Clinton, not Trump (at least in the frum community).
With Trump, it seems that some here are confusing hatred with opposition to the things he does. In simple terms, I assume you would be disgusted if someone were to scam someone. You might even after that decide you dislike that person for scamming other people (e.g. Madoff). The disgust or even hatred of the person, is ultimately driven by the behavior that runs contrary to acceptable behavior that underlies our society. With Trump, he constantly engages in unacceptable behavior, whether in his personal life, the way he speaks, or his actions to hurt Democracy. That is all that drives the views of the frum people opposed to Trump. If it results in people hating Trump that is just the end of being constantly disgusted by his vile actions. With Clinton on the other hand, the hatred is what drives everything else and like you expressed is very troubling to see that frum Jews can feel that way.
It will be very nice when Trump leaves office. I look forward to a return of dignity to the office of the Presidency. Not hearing about the vile and crude comments the President is hurling against his foes. I also look forward to a President that will try to govern following principles rather than his gut. Under Trump the GOP abandoned their opposition to deficit spending that they harped on for 8 years when Obama was President as one clear example of how under Trump the only principle governing was how does the GOP remain in power.
A populist conman.
A man who benefitted as few did from loopholes in the tax law and did nothing as President to rectify that inequity.
ubiq – he clearly has no answer. This idea of the VP picking the President unilaterally runs counter to the idea of a democracy (and one that was formed in the shadow of a monarchy which it did not want to be). There are some ideas so basic and enshrined in the constitution that the idea you need it written out is ridiculous. The notion of government and a constitution has philosophical principles underlying it, because without that, all you really have is a piece of paper. Unless enough people are willing to demand that the nature of government and the underlying laws are respected, the paper itself is of little consequence. This parsing of words in the constitution to find meanings that clearly run counter to its objective is simply reflective of a desire to toss aside the fundamentals of American Democracy. It comes from a hatred of what America is.
ujm this is your very own statement:
“jackk: Constitutional Law 101 for you — Harris doesn’t become president after Biden is impeached.”
Maybe you meant she becomes president after conviction, not impeachment, but then you should not have been so unclear how you write.
Wrong question (nevermind that a GOP led congress found there was Russian interference in the 2016 election). Rather you should ask, what does this partisan political initiative have to do with a stimulus? Kind of pathetic that a guy who was pontificating recently on the Senate floor about need for narrow relief bills is now trying to tack on his policy prerogatives to a relief bill.
ujm
Let’s see, you said Harris does not become President if Biden is impeached and convicted… That was clearly wrong. This is important as it really shows you just make stuff up and have no idea what you are talking about.
Likewise your idea about Pence declaring Trump the winner is nonsense.
Let’s make it simple. There is no voter fraud claims left to be debunked as so far no one has provided any evidence of voter fraud that needs to be debunked. If you are not sure, ask Bill Barr, the Department of Homeland Security, the 3 Supreme Court Justices Trump put up (and the other 6 Supreme Court Justices), numerous lower court judges, State Governors (both GOP and Democrat), Secretaries of State (both GOP and Democrat), and numerous other people involved in the process. Trump saying there is fraud and a gang of clowns (who don’t even make most of their fraud claims in court because they would get in trouble for that since they have no actual evidence) going along with him, and Health trying to post the most ridiculous viewpoints and Syag with deep sincerity really, really believing there is fraud, does not make there be fraud. You people saying there is fraud, need to go to court and make those claims in court (and face the consequences if you are lying to a judge), and stop whining about it here. It is simply ridiculous and tiresome.
ujm – the GOP is such an embarrassment and people are taking notice, especially since the election. I would not be getting excited about a GOP win in the mid-terms.
Orech – great post. Funny, how some here are fascinated with nonsensical and debunked (well it gets tiresome debunking every made up claim being thrown around) claims and just can’t get past the simple fact that the evidence of fraud that could have had any meaningful impact on the Presidential is just not there. Trash bags, more voters than people, aliens, vote machines flipping stuff, etc… I guess they believe a habitual liar, over everyone else (in this case, everyone else, includes, Bill Barr, the Supreme Court [including the 3 justices Trump put up], numerous lower courts, GOP Governors and Secretary of states, the Department of Homeland Security, and so on).
ujm – When Obama was President there were Republicans calling for him to be impeached, so this is nothing new. Of course when Bill Clinton was President the Republicans lead an impeachment against him (for things that Trump has violated campaign finance laws about, which should be reason enough to impeach him). Trump clearly and openly abused the power of his office. In any case talk about reaping what you sow, would have had the Democrats impeaching Bush Jr, but they never did that. They only led the impeachment against Trump, who clearly committed offenses deserving of impeachment.
Had Bill Clinton been as obstructionist as Trump, he would never have cooperated with the investigations and would never have ended up testifying under oath. So really, Bill Clinton by any standard stands miles above Trump and his corrupt through the core way he is.
Oh, and the thing Bill Clinton lied about… Well the case it was used in, had the Judge toss out that whole matter as being irrelevant. For people who say Roger Stone, who lied about a matter of direct interest to an investigation (regardless of whether the thing he lied about itself was illegal or not), did nothing wrong, hard to understand any way you can justify Bill Clinton being impeached. What Roger Stone did was much worse.
DY – I would think as long as it is reasonable to assume that the governments policy is trying to save life, it is a chillul Hashem. Just because you think another approach is better, I don’t think that gets you past dina d’malchusa… Also, these vaccines belong to the government and were paid for with government funds, which would mean you are stealing (whether halacha technically allows that or not, notwithstanding) something you may not even have a right to in the first place (it belongs to the government and they can decide how to give it out… You are welcome to go to Pfizer and see if you can buy it yourself). Finally, even if you, personally, can justify cutting the line because your own life takes precedence, that is not a justification for someone to divert the vaccine for others.
The Little I Know – Trump was impeached. If you do not know this, you should not be posting opinions about politics. Seems, some come here posting nonsense and think it is the obligation of others to point out all the basic things they simply cannot get straight (I guess under the impression that if they are not corrected on basic factual errors they must be right).
DY – re your point about R’ Hoffman’s article calling the vaccination rollout policy murderous. While he may be eminently more qualified than me to say what Halacha is, the issue here is what the facts are. He has one viewpoint and I am sure if anyone would read what he said, there are likely dozens of other viewpoints that would come up. Actually, I could argue R’ Hoffman’s suggestions would cause more loss of life… That is the wonderful thing about debating such an open-ended question where the varieties are endless. I would not rely on his essay as a basis for breaking the law and possibly causing a major chillul hashem.
Sorry, Health, under the 5th covenant of the International United Assembly, Martial Law is an ineffective method to overturn elections. Try again.
I am sure Powell was a wonderful and insightful person a little while back. Since then she obviously suffered a serious mental decline and is now saying crazy stuff. It is very sad. What I find interesting is how her mental decline has impacted many Trump supporters such that their mental facilities also failed and can no longer tell reality from fantasy.
Anyone suggesting Powell is a seasoned lawyer who must have evidence has really been living in an alternate reality this past month. She should be evaluated for dementia, because clearly there is something very off with her.
@crackers – getting chicken Pox is a precursor for getting shingles (it is the same virus that stays latent in the body). Shingles is a very common illness in older people with weakened immune systems. This is why getting the vaccine for Chicken Pox is important as it both prevents Chicken Pox and Shingles.
Supreme Court is not meeting again till Jan 8th. Congress is counting the votes on the 6th. Powell will be broke in a little while once she is sued for libel and defamation.
This whole thing is nonsense. If the Republicans are going to try to undermine the counting of the electoral votes then the Democrats can decide that only Democrats won elections for the House. This way they can perpetually ensure that Democrats control the House and the President is a Democrat.
UJM – but then 3 USC 15 is not functional if the court has no say in it. Congress has an obligation to count the votes and if they don’t do their duty they are not a functioning congress anymore and arguably the republic has ended. The Constitution would no longer be relevant and frankly anyone can seize power as long as they have the support to enforce it. Whomever is on the losing side can be called a traitor and can be hanged. Sounds great.
TVP – Powell did not release evidence. The forensic audit results are not worth anything as the person doing them has had trouble with simple facts before. Why anyone would take anything said there seriously is beyond me.
ujm – 3 USC 15, can’t allow objections to gum up the works so that a President is not elected, since that would violate the constitutional directive under the 12th amendment to count the votes. Basically, if the scenario you suggest were attempted it would end up in court and be ruled unconstitutional and the counting would proceed pretty quickly.
In the order, they actually said that they would have allowed the case to be “filed” (not heard) but would have granted no further relief. As it was the case was rejected outright (they did not allow it to be filed), they just seem to be saying they would have allowed it to go a step further and then they would have summarily ruled that there are no legal issues raised. Not even sure it would have had a hearing. Seems a bit of a technical difference and likely why they were in the end fine with signing with the order and did not present their point as a dissent.
TVP – You have been repeating these claims as if you think the more repeat them the more merit they have. The thing is that in case after case when these allegations are actually put up to scrutiny they don’t hold up. There are over 50 cases that have been lost by those pushing these allegations and the judges in these cases include judges put up by Trump. Just maybe this evidence you keep on touting is not evidence rather just some claims that don’t hold up.
Your claims are just lacking credibility at this point.
S. Powell suggesting the election was stolen is not what turned into her into a blithering idiot, although it is a baseless claim so definitely irresponsible and a touch of a coup and sedition in there. What makes here a blithering idiot was her absurd claims that even resulted in Trump tweeting that she was not part of the legal team (I guess the crack legal team).
As to that article, while I am not an actuary and not as well versed in statistics as he is, his statistics seem flawed. For one he calls for an audit based on his analysis. The thing is both in Georgia and Arizona there have been hand recounts that validated the results. So you have your audit. Hence it seems clear his statistical modeling is not predictive and is most likely flawed. Now what might the flaws be. Well as polling, with its inaccuracies have shown, that targeted campaigns and numerous other factors can result in “swing” states going one way or the other. The thing is, many of the states that his analysis relies on, were known swing states going into this election. That they would not align with some regression analysis seems obvious. Otherwise polling would be near-perfect, which it is not. I am not saying that his claims are intentionally misleading, but clearly the don’t hold up when the actual results were audited. That tells me more than anything else that there is nothing further to consider. Btw, all he has really said is the result of the election does not align with his statistical model. Remind me how many election models did we have that have been off? If it is not clear that statistical models applied to election results are highly suspect, you have not been paying attention. If you have been here long enough, you have probably yourself poked fun at statistical models suggesting one result or another (see comments #1911482, #1911290, and #1913754, where you, yourself, point out how inaccurate polling is… not sure why you are all mesmerized now with a statistical analysis that when tested has been shown to have no predictive value).
TVP – I said in all my comments the case would be tossed. How could SCOTUS rule on the merits when all nine justices agreed there was no “judicially cognizable interest” here.
As to the merits, well we have 50+ cases which Trump’s side has lost that have ruled that there are no merits to Trump’s claims. Those cases have been ruled on by judges of every political stripe, and some appointed by Trump. If 72 million people believe the election has been stolen, it is likely because they have allowed themselves to be duped by a conman. Remind me how much money has Trump raised post-election due to these stolen election claims and how much of that has been used to actually fight the results? Reminds me of the guy who sold the same piece of real estate to multiple investors and pocketed the difference. It is also funny how a self-proclaimed multi-billionaire is asking hardworking American’s for handouts. Trump pays less taxes than his supporters (and as President has not done anything to change that inequity) and on top of that has the audacity to ask for handouts from these folks. It is pathetic. And he said he had a good case, which is obvious now he did not, and he used that claim to rile up supporters to get them to given him money. Seriously, this has got to be the greatest scam of all time. Some thought his Trump University was bad, but this takes the cake.
Health – So you admit you had no idea what you were talking about when you made your claims about the PA case. I think I can avoid addressing any other points you raise. Btw, did you see the case you claimed was the real case (the Texas case), got the boot? Maybe stop making nonsensical and false claims. It grows old.
S. Powell is a joke. Anything she claims should automatically be assumed to be nonsense. Anyone suggesting S. Powell is trustworthy is simply delusional.
When you consider the company conducting the audit previously submitted affidavits that confused counties and which states they are in, I would assume whatever claims they put out about Dominion voting systems will be similarly nonsense. In any case, the machines being audited are in a Republican controlled county, the judge is also a Republican.
What the Judge said is that use of the forensic images has to be approved by him, which should mean (although not certain) that any info from the fake audit that is being done has to be approved by the Judge before being publicized. The Judge ordered this because the Secretary of State raised legitimate issues here. Without this, Michigan, can likely be sued by Dominion for breach of contract for not taking action to prevent the release of information that was contractually agreed to be kept private. There is also the issue that someone may be able to find a way to hack the software and impair future elections, so restricting info on how the software works might be beneficial (e.g. Apple takes this approach. Google on the other hand is much more open with how their software works and attempts to improve security by fixing flaws that people find. It is arguable depending on the exact facts and circumstances which approach is better).
I guess, you can read into this all sorts of conspiracies, but this is actually pretty typical stuff and courts deal with this all the time. Let’s put it this way, if they can prove the software is designed to allow fake election results, then any contract provision preventing release of that info would be found void and you can spread that on the news all you want. That would be a very serious claim. The simple reason why that claim is likely nonsense, is so far in every recount in any State that has done one there has not been any significant discrepancy. Also, you will know that claim may have some merit if the court actually agrees with them. If the court rules against them and they make the claims they found serious problems, well then I would simply assume they are mixing up Counties and State again and nothing they say is reliable.
Health – Never saw you address you complete inconsistency on the PA court case. You said you will win at the Supreme Court, yet you lost. You even said when you lost in State court that was part of the plan so you can get to the Supreme Court where you will win. Please explain how you can be so wrong? I may even be willing to discuss Texas and Rioting once you explain how you can be so wrong.
So now the PA case was not a good case.
Not what you said on 11/22, which I quoted above. You said you will win then.
Guess what you lost.
Why would anyone assume your opinion is any more valid now then back on 11/22.
What are you going to say when the Texas case is tossed? Will you then say that was a bad case but the next case is the real one? This is just getting silly.
I was pointing out for you to help you remember how you were all going on about the PA lawsuit getting to SCOTUS and how that will accomplish something. Guess what, as you have seemingly come to realize it went no place. Losing in State Court was apparently not a path to success.
The reason I pointed this out to you, is because you jump from one thing to the next and the moment one thing you thought does not work out you assume the next thing will work out. Just remember the flaws in your thinking when it came to PA did not suddenly go away because Texas is suing or Rudy or S. Powell will sue. Rudy and Powell are bigger clowns then you. They go to court with affidavits that make up nonexistent places and confuse many things. There is a reason why they can’t win, it is because no matter how much the judge might love Trump, they have been given nothing to work with.
Every State has certified the election and it is clear that Biden has won. Any attempt to overturn this is simply an attempted coup via using the courts. Trump is not looking for the courts to uphold the law, rather he his hoping he will find judges that don’t care about the law and will rule for him. I think losing 50 lawsuits speaks loud enough as to this.
Why is it any different than the Hafgana in Israel (strong conviction breeds extremism). When people think their politics and religion align extremism follows. I suspect we are at the end of a shift in Orthodox adopting the Republican Party as their political identity. Just see the way comments are written here by frum people who support Trump. It is “we” as opposed to the “Republicans.” On the other hand, I suspect if you read comments from those supporting the Democrats it is the “Democrats” and not “we.”
Below are your non-prophetic words that you posted on 11/22/2020. I guess those Con whatever’s that were pushing these lawsuits don’t play politics or law. Don’t get your Con hopes up that a Con will win the next round of lawsuits. The Safe Harbor date is passed. This election is over.
“Like I wrote before – we wanted that Pa. Judge (Appointed by Obama) to Decide against us.
Hopefully the Third circuit will also.
And we will Win in SCOTUS!
Those Lib judges play Politics, Not Law.”To all the Cons here:
Representatives from PA just had their case to overturn the election rejected by SCOUS. Somehow I doubt that Texas or Rudy trying to go to the Supreme Court will work any better (unless your goal is to also lose in the Supreme Court).
I thought this was a “Fact Only Wiki”, yet we have someone persisting with a statement to the effect that if Biden won it had to be cheating as he does not believe it is possible otherwise. That is called opinion. If you have facts to show why Biden did not get more votes, show them. Some cherry-picked and questionable statistics are also not facts. By that standard if Biden did not get more votes than Trump it would be an indication of fraud as in 6 of the prior 7 elections, Democrats got more votes than Republicans.
Health – tried on another thread to debate something with you and you were making claims and then changing the claims and it was impossible to have a sensible conversation. Perhaps there are points you raise that are worthy of response but I feel it is a waste to address points that in your next comment you will say well of course I left out important details because this was not your point but rather something that you have yet to reveal.
Also, I expect at least one commenter here to be very offended by your use of Lying Libs, as they would feel you are using that as an insult against everyone who disagrees with your thesis here and of course it ignores the just as bad actions of the other side.
DY – The person I responded to was very upset by the idea on another thread that someone dared paint all Trump supporters with a single brush (while responding in kind…). On this thread, unprompted, she makes a comment that paints Democrats with a single brush and completely ignores well-known cases of election fraud by Republicans in the last few years.
All, I am saying, is don’t play victim when someone says something you don’t like about Trump supporters when you go a sling the other way.
The true colors is the intolerant partisanship. She loves to pretend she is above the fray.
“I live in chicago. I KNOW democrats cheat.”
And your true colors show once again. Insults against Democrats are fine by you apparently. Dare anyone suggest that support for nonsensical claims of fraud is driven by support for Trump, then you are all offended.
“The likelihood that there was sufficient fraud to change the outcome in three states necessary to overturn the purported results is not high.”
You are correct here. Biden won fair and square.
You go on to say Republicans are trying to sow doubt and trust in the election to hurt Biden’s presidency in payback for the Russian Hoax.
So let’s be clear you are saying Republicans know Biden won the election fair and square and still they are acting malicious.
The thing with the Russian Hoax, is that it was not a hoax. There was well documented interference by Russia in the election in 2016 to help Trump. Calling it a hoax is a lie. In any case, if memory serves it was Trump’s AG that appointed Mueller, not the Democrats. It was the GOP led Senate that issued a report on Russian interference in the election. This is not a Democrat led thing.
Seems like the GOP playbook these days is simply to lie. Lie about Russian Interference in the Election which a GOP led Senate issued a report that found interference, and now lie about the election Biden won fair and square. The GOP cannot be getting back at Biden for Russian Interference rather it is clear these actions are simply malicious.
Sorry Health – you stating something as fact is meaningless. Show us the evidence.
As to all the affidavits… If the lawyers won’t bring them to court and when they do they get tossed out (by Judges appointed by Trump or others) my assumption is that we can safely assume any affidavit you have is worthless or a misrepresentation.
How many times do you get to lie and tossed out of court before the onus is on you to make the case, not someone else to show how you are wrong.
As to another commenter here who was upset that someone suggested that support for Trump was the overriding theme in making fraud claims and suggested it goes both ways. I will just repeat what I said above. Trump has lost about 40 lawsuits now. Has had numerous affidavits rejected. There comes a point where objectively it seems safe to say that one side is simply lying and the other side is perhaps telling the truth. As to why anyone would lie, well it is obvious that in this case it is support for Trump.
Health – What you are saying is simply not fact.
It was legal!
Fact is, you are wrong.
You said most of America is against gay marriage… Now you clarify you meant in 2003.
Enjoy your constantly changing arguments. I see no reason to address them. I am sure you can make up more arguments than I possibly have time to address. I mean when you get down to it, when someone can’t maintain an modicum of integrity and consistency in the arguments, it is almost certain the person saying them does not care about the arguments and only cares to promote their conclusion. That is an issue with you that no amount of arguing can change so why bother.
“most of American think that there is no such thing as Gay Marriage!”
It would seem polls show that 70% of Americans support it. Just to clarify 70% is a substantial majority of Americans.
I mean, at least get basic stuff straight. There is little point in these arguments/discussions when the responses are all over the place and you just make up “alternative” facts.
What would they hold if I married my Dog?!?
Would he/she get my Worldly Possessions?!?Great question. What do you think. What if you dog was gay? What if your dog owned a slave? What if your dog went to Harvard and was more intelligent then you?
Also, I want to know what happens if an ant tries to sue me. Then there is that Chimp that took that picture. What are his rights.
Btw, remind me why you are asking ridiculous questions. What do they have to do with the morals of the Founding fathers? Also what does the founding fathers’ morals have to do with morals today. Were they so stupid that they ever suggested their moral views will be the exact same folks 200+ years later would have? I mean if you answer that yes, then the founding fathers were idiots and no reason to respect their views.
Barr abused power by changing Justice Department policy with regard to investigations into election related issues, with no basis for doing so, other than Trump and Rudy saying there is fraud. And what does he conclude with, they have found nothing significant (his own conclusion does nothing to help his case that changing policy was proper).
Saying Barr has impeccable credentials is not possible anymore. His change of policy here was a clear politically motivated action. I thought these guys take an oath of office. So much for law and order.
DaasYochid –
You say I can’t accept a differing opinion about how he has had an effect on our democracy and that is therefore close-minded.
Nevermind you are putting forth a strawman argument in that no one here, definitely not you, has offered a differing opinion about how he has had an effect on our democracy. How can I be closed-minded with regard to opinions that are never expressed?
On top of that you change my words from refusing to recognize that his flaws make him unfit to be president to a claim I never made. Namely, you claim I said that pro-Trump think whatever he does is automatically true… No idea what that even means.
Call me closed-minded or whatever, but you and no one has offered arguments to counter that make any sense. It is like the 30+ lawsuits filed that you just throw every thought out there and see if something sticks or someone just gets tired or refuting one nonsense point after another.
Yes, you are acting like Cultists. Your are desperately trying to uphold some vision of Trump and you ignore the flaws and problems with him. If you google “Cult” the third definition that pops up is, “a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.”
I think by now all the Trump cultists have weighed in and they have presented nothing worthy of consideration. Feel free to go and spout more nonsense and righteous indignation (read the ravings of TRUMP2024 as an example). Can’t say I have enjoyed this conversation.