FollowMesorah

Anyone know the answer to @coffeeaddict?
I saw the pamphlet and was bothered as well.

Does anyone know about indochino suits?

Damoshe
Without getting into the debate of living on “tzedakah”, a family of 8 earning 150k is living on tzedakah.

Avira
He was lamenting that yeshivos don’t teach physics anymore and he said it to me. You are correct though that I “misspoke”. I wrote his intent was for “the sake of general knowledge”. Without question, for reb shmuel, “general knowledge” (physics) is to recognize Hashem incredible world in order to fear Him as the reshonim speak about.

Again, it very quickly gets confused (usually by those with a dangerous agenda) and put on some pedestal he/they would be horrified with.

It’s his opinion and there are others that go with that mesorah even though the majority of the yeshiva world does not

That majority opinion doesn’t not argue with the reshonim I mentioned. They simply hold it doesn’t come before learning even more Torah and/or doesn’t belong being taught in a yeshiva.

In addition, many from that majority opinion that don’t hold of teaching secular studies for general knowledge/fear of Hashem do hold we need to need to what needed to be able to make decent living and they therefore do promote general studies. There is another reason as well in America v’hamayvin yavin.

UJM
Wow, thank you for your answer. I personally have spoken to most of the Gedolim in our generation about this topic and I felt you portrayed the “consensus” well. One thing I would clarify, some, such as reb shmuel Kaminetsky, hold one should learn secular studies for the sake of general knowledge. When asked, he said one a boy in high school should learn physics (even if this meant less learning in Seder).

However, the danger in even repeating it is that many even in today’s world want to push the envelope on the intent and promote secular studies to a level those Gedolim would be horrified with. Secular studies should never be put in any type of pedestal.

Square root
The you simply have no idea what is happening today in the ultra orthodox world. The yetzer hara to go to college as in the decades past is over. There are fast track programs for almost every field, and there are even great solutions for those looking to go into law. Just in the last 5-10 years 10s of thousands are doing very well having skipped the standard four years of college.

Damoshe and AAQ
Saying those Gedolim went to college is disingenuous at best and entirely misleading. Not one of those you mentioned feel one should learn philosophy or go to college (even if they held there were exceptions).

There is a pretty clear mesorah for all of this and people in their foolishness believe they know better than our great Gedolim over many generation. Sometimes they mean well but are naive. Sometimes it’s people with an agenda.

Here are several ideas to consider:

1. Significant difficulties and challenges facilitate one’s ability to fully turn towards Hashem. When pushed to the wall with no where else to turn comes an opportunity. Ultimately, if we take that opportunity, we are rewarded and what seemed bad is in essence very good for us. Turning to Hashem includes both the recognition there is absolutely “No one but Him”, as well as the turning to Him in Tefillah.

At an Agudah convention years ago there was a Q&A session where someone asked why Hashem brought the Holocaust.
2. One Gadol (I don’t recall the names) answered that before the holocaust the enlightenment movement (and reform in America) were raging across the Jewish communities. The holocaust was therefore not only a punishment, but it helped facilitate the rebuild of the (frum) Jewish people across the world. (To an extent anyone from that generation would find unbelievable).
Another Gadol did not like that answer and said something to argue with the first Gadol. However, what he said is also a great answer to the OPs question.
3. He started going through each of the stories of the 10 sages killed by the Romans, one story at a time until he finished all ten. Then he asked “why were these ten sages who lived over 100s of years killed? Because the brothers sold Yosef.
Ten sages who lived over a period of 100s of years thousands of years after the sale of Yosef Hatzadik were killed as a kapparah.”
To assume we can know why something has happened would be foolish on our part, even if the reason seems obvious. We are not above time like Hashem, and there is a larger picture we cannot see.
This can be understood even without getting into the more complicated gilgulim component.
The UN general secretary said these events “did not happen in vacuum”. Those words are a very accurate portrayal of what’s going on (obviously not in the way he intended it). Events do not happen in a vacuum.

The first two points mentioned are very similar.
I listed them both because I think there may be a very important distinction (although I am not sure this is true). In the first, we have an opportunity to turn to Hashem through bechira due to difficulties. In the second, it could be Hashem directing the world, causing a rebirth of klal Yisroel, that may be happening without our bechira- of course for good.

May the geulah come soon.

mdd1
As I wrote earlier, I am personally not getting into the “should you” debate.
I am focusing on a reality that drives the vast majority of Americans major decision making process. This includes schooling and job type.

For many, there is very little difference between earning 100k and 250k, and how many have the potential to earn more than 250? I think even in this room most would agree college wouldn’t help reach that crucial 250k.

Leave the “should you” debate out, the reality is different and right now the socialist world we live in is promoting it (like it or not).

100k With:
Tax refund
Section 8
Food stamps
Free insurance
Half priced clothing
Dwd
Chasdie lev
Tuition?
150k with only some of the above

AAQ
If you do the math, you so find that the difference after tuition breaks, government programs, and taxes is pretty small.

This a strictly a math equation, not a conversation on whether it is better to live off of these benefits. All would afree it is better not to. However, to make the jump from 100k to 250k is not easy.

Anyone care to spend the time doing the math for us on typical Lakewood Yeshivish home with two parents, 8 kids, nice sized home? One with an income of 100k the other 250k.

CTLAWYER
As mentioned in another thread, after taxes, government programs, and tuition benefits there is very little difference between earning 100 to 250k (between the Mr. and Mrs.).
Even with a solid education it’s difficult to crack that number.
That’s the American system. It ENCOURAGES one to earn less so they qualify for programs.
No, the Torah world does not mind.

Marxist
The market was flooded 5 to 10 years ago. It’s not as much today. Instead a higher percentage of talented individuals are opening up their own business or taking a fast-track educational program and then earning a decent parnassah (at least between the husband and wife to crack that minimum 100k)

Too put the nail in the coffin…
In the wonderful American system, between taxes, government programs, and tuition one will not be in a better financial situation with an income range of about 100 to 250k.
So 1- We could argue that in today’s world college doesn’t even help one earn a higher income. 2- College almost certainly doesn’t help one earn more than the crucial 250k number. In fact it may hinder.

It is true that to be an attorney law school is required, but today, for many fields, college as we knew it is not a necessity.

The percentage of those earning higher incomes may even be higher for those that don’t go to graduate school etc. (This of course is not including those who stay in learning).

Do you have any idea how many lawyers today are struggling to earn a decent parnasah? It’s far too many.

Extreme caution should be used before pushing something that might be harmful to the majority.

The. World. Has. Changed.

CTLAWYER
There are plenty of entry level jobs available where one can build skills.

Are you disagreeing building those skills is more important than the general knowledge gained through college?

The educational system you grew up with is gone. In its place is a curriculum that has gone off the rails. It was always liberal, but today it’s become extreme left wing propaganda. (Again, if you haven’t seen the changes the last few years, please do so before responding).

Definitely better to get a real world job and build up real skills:
Be a secretary for year
Gain some writing and phone skills
Take an excel and Quickbooks course
6 digit Parnasah options should now be available to you.

Or stay in school for a third of your life, in debt, and still struggle to get a job. That’s todays world.

The needs have vastly changed, even in the last ten years. There are now many fast-track programs available to help people integrate into the work force in a variety of fields. This is aside from fast-tracked college programs where much of what was unnecessary is now skipped.

Automatic Heterim Gedolim gave until recently, certainly wouldn’t apply in todays world for a variety of reasons.

However, this conversation is about secular studies in high schools. Should there be, shouldn’t there be.

Mesorah doesn’t mean quoting one line in Gemara
Mesorah doesn’t mean quoting one line in Chazal
Mesorah doesn’t mean quoting one line from a Reshon

Unfortunately, many groups take words out of context or find one line that “works” with their agenda and use it to convince others to follow a path that does not follow our Mesorah.
Unfortunately, the results are the same every time- and history repeats itself.

Mesorah does mean following what the vast majority of leaders held throughout many generations.

@n0mesorah
“Since their knowledge is based on integration as opposed to foundations, they assume we are just lacking in all the confirming information. They do not understand that we are questioning the fundamental concepts”

I found what you articulated here interesting. Out of curiosity, what is the reason for this?

@n0mesorah
“Which yeshiva wouldn’t he condemn today? We have all fallen the way of YU of thirty years ago”

Rav Gifter (and the other yeshiva Gedolim) had very unique and specific problems with YU/Norman Lamm
Please see my posts #2216450, #2215761, and #2216529 where SOME are articulated.

@KM @AviraDeArah is correct when he writes “The issue surrounding mendelssohn had little to do with secular studies, as this was common in other countries, like Italy. The issue was reform, change. He wanted to change things. He said that the Torah world needs to accommodate changing times by leaving the way we were taught. He said that mingling with non jews is good for us, against what chazal say.”

I wrote this so as to clarify that there are two issues to contend with:
1. Being enlightened and educated to be closer to the way of the non Jews.
2a. the belief in chochmas yivonis as being separate from the Torah
2B. and something worthy of being glorified (equal to or above the Torah itself).

@all I know I am repeating myself, but it’s important to make this distinction as different groups have had different motives. Not knowing what they are and were makes it impossible to even start understanding why there is so much pushback.

@sensibleyid “theres something to chochmas yevanis other than Covid varient symbols”
Well, you did come out and say it right away. It’s that passion and desire to say it that is dangerous.

@yechiell Wow, you are smarter than chazal? I would love to meet you!
Any attempt to be “smarter” than Chazal or even mesorah is haughty. Can one truly be so foolish? Or perhaps there are ulterior motives…

@yaakov doe “I consider myself MO”
We all agree the lines are blurred. However, what you consider yourself is irrelevant, and is distracting from the conversation. You say you keep many things that most MO don’t. thats wonderful. And that’s also not what the argument is about or why there is pushback in the first place.

@DaMoshe “For me, a bachur [young man] who goes to college – that’s part of his Torah too, if we recognize that he’s going to college to make a living”
There are two (or 3) distinct reasons for a “secular education”
1. To be able to earn a living and function in this world. (one could argue if going to a secular college campus is necessary for this but that’s not this conversation)
2A To become “educated” and be respected as such by the secular world.
2B to learn for the sake of knowledge and seeing the beauty in “chochmas yivanis”
You are talking about 1. The discussion is mostly about 2 and is what many of the leaders of MO are passionate about.

“Secular studies” may have its benefits. However, when made equal to or greater than the Torah in importance that’s a problem. I wrote two examples above of what you might hear people from these groups say. Here is a third: “the Torahs response to…”
1. The Torah does not respond to anyone
2. The very conversation makes it seems like there is a conversation about equating the Torah to secular. Even if that sentence finishes with “but of course the Torah is central”.

And again, where does all this passion for “secular studies” stem from…
Why the consistent equate it to the Torah itself (intentionally or not)?

I rarely comment. However, missing from these discussions is the primary source of contention between the MO world (and similar) and the chareidi world- and people should be aware of what it is.

The main reason why there is pushback from the chareidi world is because the MO (and many similar movements that started over the years) always put something other than torah (and Mesorah) either, equal to, or higher than the the torah itself (such as secular education for the sake of “knowledge” and “being educated”). It comes out in the way they speak and from their actions. If you don’t know what I am referring to, it is because you are not talking to the leaders of these groups.

An argument these groups make is that many of the chareidi Gedolim (such as RSRH) themselves have even stated at times these things are benefit and worthwhile (like secular education for the sake of “knowledge and being educated”), and in fact, they are correct. Many Chareidi Gedolim do feel that way.

However. The charadei Gedolim vehemently disagree with MO approach and will continue to do so because under no circumstance may one put on a pedestal something other than Torah- and these groups are.

The proof that it is on a pedestal is the passion these groups (or at least the leaders) come with promoting their agenda. We could have a debate about the importance of secular education, but the passion and insistence for it is misguided and an indication of ulterior motives (many times deep down) that the chareidi Gedolim keep calling out, and unfortunately they have been proven right time and again. The next generation picks up the ulterior motive and throws away even the Torah.

A few things:
1. Secular education was used as an example because it’s a common theme for these groups.
2. keep in mind there is a MO movement heading towards the right, and as another poster mentioned, the lines are increasingly becoming blurred (in a good way for some).
3. The average person within these groups may not be aware of the bigger picture and they are generally a tenok shenishba (but watch out for those with a strange passion you can’t seem to be able to explain).

This “conversation” and back and forth has been going on for years, and like it or not, it will continue due the passion and importance of the pushback.

@Da Moshe

I live in Teaneck (or rather Bergenfield). You have misrepresented what goes on here. While it is true there is a “righter” wing element that goes to schools like Heichal, the vast majority do not. And Avirah is unfortunately correct about what happens with that majority…

DA Moshe, we need to be able to call it out for it is, even though it makes us feel like we are punched in the gut. What do we gain by promoting the vast minority that go to this one yeshiva as though it shia where the MO community at large stands?

Let’s hope the more “right wing” of Teaneck and Bergenfield continues to grow. But even if it does, it is not the MO of this discussion.

There is a very interesting interview about exactly this subject on this weeks headlines show by David Lichtenstein, at the 57:16 marker. Many of these points were discussed. Question is, why did it take so long for such an obvious solution? Does it strike the right balance?