eddiee

Whereas everything you are saying may be true, this is not a smartphone vs derech eretz issue. It is a plain derech eretz issue. Unfortunately the level of derech eretz that is seen in many of our youth has gone down tremendously. This needs to be addressed. But it has nothing to do with the fact that the smartphone was used, that was just the excuse the children used. The OP makes it sound like his issue is what the children were disrespectful about. If it was an issue that bothered him, it woulds have been ok. Just the smartphone is not something that bothers him enough to make such an issue about.
In short, there are 2 separate issues here, and they need to be dealt with separately. 1) the smartphone usage, and 2) the childrens lack of derech eretz

Tweet Tweet

Besalel: Please tell me at least 1 posek, by name, who who said that this Halacha has changed due to changes in societal norms and sensitivities.

My question to AAQ is, why is MY action obviously inappropriate, because YOU reported it? If you see me holding the hand of a crying child ( you never met me before) you might choose to call 911, Shomrim, ASPCA, PETA,or whatever authority you choose, to report a kidnapping. You can even argue that it is the right thing to do. But if you take a step back and find out that I am taking my child to the doctor for a very painful ear infection, you would realize that obviously what I am doing is not inappropriate, even though you chose to exercise extreme caution, rather than finding out the story.

It is true that the consumer can voice complaints to effect change. Those complaints are designed to make a store/company aware of what the consumer wants. Then it becomes a business decision as to whether or not the company wants to reconsider their decision. No one was claiming that they are entitled to have parve Stella D’oro Swiss Fudge Cookies. That Is the difference. A parent is not entitled to have a particular school change it’s educational philosophy to accommodate them. You wouldnt expect a catholic school to make accommodations for a orthodox jew who wished to attend for any reason. A parent CAN discuss their viewpoint with the school in question, and perhaps even make the school aware that most of the parent body is in full agreement. At that point the school has a right to do what they wish with that information. And so do the parents. As far as the legal aspect, I cannot discuss that. (before advocating using the law as a stick to affect change in schools, make sure that your school of choice, which I am sure is a paragon of virtue and upholding the law, is really squeaky clean.) I am certainly not advocating breaking the law, but I do believe this law is unfair, unrealistic, and subject to abuse. What about the public schools that are not up to par? are there going to be changes there too? Please don’t tell me that they are fulfilling the basic requirements, with the kind of pass/fail ratio that they have. The parent body of these primarily inner city schools have been complaining for years about this, and in practice nothing is being done to change things.

I would like to make a disclaimer. I also have my ideas to improve education in various mosdos. I also don’t understand how or why they do or don’t do certain things. I only question anyone’s right to demand that they change the way they operate. It is no different than me going into your grocery store and demanding that you have no right not to sell Cholov Stam products because you are the most convenient store and I want it. What gives you the right to foist your chumros on me? ( BTW I don’t eat cholov stam, it was just an example) Obviously this is ridiculous.

What I meant was that the parents, in general do not want to hear that decisions are made by an administrator. They choose a school because of the torah philosophy that they follow (this excludes out-of-town, where there is one community school).I choose the school that I send my children to based on the fact that I respect the hanhala
ah of that school. If not, I shouldn’t send there. This includes in a chassidic community. My school was considering a major change in its program. When consulted, I told the hanhallah that it is their school, and they can do what they want. But understand that the type of boys that come will change. A school is a business. Its profits are successful students, and it markets education. The difficult part of running a school is finding the balance between what the parents want and your educational/torah philosophy.
In response to your second point, in theory standardized testing would be a good metric. However, as in most things, theory does not come out in practice. The regents are a good example. They should show how a child is doing, but if the scores are low, the state just changes the curve. All that standardized testing gives you is comparative information
; how your child is doing relative to the other students in the state. The issue is that I cannot figure out the inherent value of a secular education. The mark of a successful school should be based on where the students are 10 years later. If I am happy with the results, it was a success. I know parents that thought that their child was a failure because he became a doctor and not a lawyer. (this is a true story.) In the public school system there are specialty schools. A child has to be above average to get into those schools. There are always issues as to which students can get ahead by going to those schools. I don’t understand the issue, just mandate all schools to be on that level. Obviously not all parents want such a level, and not all students can maintain such levels. The point is, when choosing a school for your child, look at the results of the schools in question and use that as a starting point. Like a restaurant, if you don’t like the food, don’t go there. It is ridiculous to think that you should start demonstrations outside the store to force change.

The answer is no we cannot have an adult conversation about education. The reason is that this is not about education. It is about some disaffected former students who found a way to get back at a system that failed them. The fact that the system needs or does not need improvement is irrelevant to the discussion. Most mosdos that are frum have a Rov/Rebbe giving guidance, or at least a Vaad Hachinuch which makes major decisions.
Far be it from me to question a torah authority for the decisions that they make within their own mosdos. But please don’t for one second think that this issue is about education. It isn’t, and it never was.

No, just I know 2 people that were wrongly accused. One was by an unstable child who did it in retaliation for her being told no to something she wanted. The man lost his job and was pilloried by his community, even though it was common knowledge that nothing happened and it was all made up. His boss told him that even though everybody knows that it isn’t true, he can’t afford to keep him because of the repercussions in the media (i.e. the “Blogs”). The second case actually went to the authorities, and the DA cleared the man of all charges. In the meantime, he was put through the wringer in his community.

To all those that say that the interests of the victim comes first, what are you going to do when someone falsely accuses YOU? Will you have alot of understanding for all the Choshuva CR posters that are tearing your life apart? I know that this doesn’t solve any problems, but lets put some perspective on those that focus on the Loshon Hora aspect.
I also may suggest that when a child goes to therapy, a parent should always be there. We, as a society, are too trusting of people. Even if the therapist says that it won’t work well, then find a different therapist if necessary.

Emes: Whether or not the MSM lied about the election or not, is not material to this conversation.What is material is that they constantly slant the news to the anle they wish. White on black violence is reported on front page. Black on black violence is barely reported on. If a white cop performs an act ov violence, justified or not, it is reported as “a white policeman did… to an african american. If it is a black policeman, it is just reported as a policeman did… to a black man. As terrible as violence against minorities is, the reporting is totally unbalanced. There is no report of what the victim was doing or his criminal history. The point is that many people are jaded by anything the MSM publishes.
BTW I get no information from the right wing press. I am one of tthose that are jaded , andsaid 6 months before the election, that the situation is totally open for fraud, by either side. I just never thought that it would reach such levels of swearing by the election or swearing at the election.

I personally don’t trust any media, right or left. There is no unbiased media, as I said before. To use the expression, anything I read in any form of media I take with a grain of salt (or the whole saltshaker). The fact that the election was not overturned does not mean that fraud wasn’t there. I personally subscribe to the school of thought that elections are “too big to fail”. Once you overturn one election, there will be doubt cast on any election, past, present, and future. Sort of like when a policeman is caught falsifying evidence. It casts doubt on all his previous cases. Threfore, unless the fraud was so widespread and evident that all parties agree that it happened, the courts should throw the cases out even with the flimsiest of excuses. I believe that in many of the court cases in this election, that is exactly what happened, amnd while I may not be happy with the overall election situation, this is a case that for the greater long term good, we have to ignore the irregularities. If a court were to actually hear the evidence at an open trial, it could not ignore the evidence. So in many cases, based on what I am seeing in the media, the courts threw the case out (refused to take the case) so as not to have to deal with the terrifying possibility of overturning an election. Sort of the courts way of pleading the fifth.

So you are assuming that when the MSM responds that there is no proof, or that there proof is not valid, the MSM is telling the truth. Perhaps they are, but why should I believe them? This is not a court of law, that I need burden of proof. I would assume, given the last four years of Trump bashing, that that the MSM would not support anything that is pro Trump. The MSM need to earn the trust of the public before we can assume that they will have honest reporting with regard to Trump, and the whole Conservative Republican wing. The idea that the media is unbiased has not been true for as long as I can remember.

With all due respect, all I see now is that the social media platforms are using the excuse of “inciting violence” to suppress conservative free speach. One after another, they are scrambling to shut them down, and everyone is too scared to stand up to it. I am not referring to President Trump, although it is true for his rights too. There was no court that deemed him a danger, your opinions not withstanding.