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000646 – your question, especially the second part, was very unclear…please clarify your question and I will try to answer…
Thank you Joseph, kudos for answering for me! 🙂
000646 – The Rabbonim decide what is the norm…they are “kovea”…
feif un – I believe they would say it’s HALACHA not CHUMRA….however, feel free to ask your local rabbi and get back to me. It’s unfortunate to hear the story about your wife (at least a happy ending b”H) but it’s totally wrong for people to give the wrong impression of yeshivish/charedi Judaism just because they don’t have the patience, or knowledge, to answer her. They should at least have the patience to refer her to someone who could answer her Qs…
Please don’t judge the Rabbis though based on the few (you don’t say if they were Rabbis or regular “yeshivish” people)…find one that IS patient and will hear you out & explain things and you can go with them with any of ur Qs…sometimes you need to speak to several before finding a G-d fearing Rav you “click” with (or at least who’s da’as torah resonates with you). Good luck to you and your wife! 🙂
Rabbi noach orlowek has a “shita” not to move when you have kids from age 5 thru 15 for precisely this reason…but do ask your local rav, there may be specifc communities and/or schools that are not as “risky”. good luck! (ps look at hakshiva’s website – google hakshiva – i think they have a shiur for download from rabbi orlowek where he discusses the challenges of raising american kids in israel) good luck!
Feif Un- Correct…If you read my post, that is 100% what I was saying…as long as you ARE asking YOUR RAV, and following his psak, you are doing the right thing, and anyone who judges you is wrong. At the same time, I still take exception to people calling many tznius things chumros – it may depend on the locale (minhag hamakom), but for those given places it is HALACHA not CHUMRA…
yitzy – I don’t know the mekor and if he meant it at face value – but one thing I can tell you, is that if he was alive today, he would agree with today’s gedolim, our generation’s “rabban gamliel”s who say that it’s a hora’as sha’ah in our generation that we need as many as possible in klal yisroel who are capable of sitting and learning all day to do so, as in our immoral generation, while it’s shayich to also LEARN torah, it’s not shayich to get GADLUS b’torah, or make talmidei chachomim/poskim if they do not stay enveloped in the bubble of torah. This is specifically for our generation that things changed, and given that it is da’as torah, I’m sure the gedolim would say that the tanaim and amoraim would agree to this “shita” if they were alive in this depraved generation…
Why is it that it seems most posters feel if an outright halacha is “too hard” for the “hamon am” it is suddenly a CHUMRA?
if pple would ask their rabbonim, who heads are in torah all day, they could find out mekoros for what they seem to think are chumros! When the torah says something is assur, then HALACHA = the way we should (lit. walk) live our lives. If you believe in matan torah, believe in halacha, and ask your local Rav for a mekor…clearly the talmidei chachomim are not on this board (tho it seems there are many potential ones if all our time wasn’t wasted on here, myself included – as far as the wasting time, not T”CH as I’m not a male :p)
and to 000646 – ur right, a lot of “extras” today ARE minhag hamakom, and even today, if you went to live in certain parts of Africa you wouldn’t need stockings or sandals, you could walk barefoot like everybody else WHEN THAT IS THE ACCEPTED NORM and even considered dignified in that locale – if this is really a pressing issue for you, whatever floats your boat. Please let me know the moving date :p
But when gedolim do set up takanos, or put gedarim on what minhag hamakom for that place, they have reasons rooted in the torah for that (maybe because of all the pritzus today? kabbala? but I’m sure they have even greater reasons that we can’t understand). and as long as you follow ur local rav, even if it’s not following all the “extras” BECAUSE YOUR RAV TOLD YOU IT’S OKAY, then fine – but don’t blast those who are following THEIR rabbonim.
I happen to live in a community in Israel that has many more takanos of minhag hamakom than most of what you know of or is written here, and like a “baal teshuva” I can’t say I am among the top of those who follow every hiddur…but I am working on it, with a Rav, with taking on a little bit each time of what I can handle…I think whoever is trying to grow, and/or follow their Rav, is doing the right thing.
May we be zocheh to bring mashiach with our growth in tznius…and if we learned anything from a bit over a week ago, maybe we can stop the machlokes back & forth, and have achdus with each of us trying to be the best that we can be!
000646-
The answer to your question about how to gauge who can argue on Rav Moshe, the answer is nobody in this generation. This is based on the principal of Yeridas Hadoros – We cannot argue on Rav Moshe, Rav Moshe cannot argue on an Acharon etc – this is when they can to a conclusion or a psak. The only way a rav today CAN argue on a gadol from a previous generation, is by “holding” of a psak of a different gadol or rishon/acharon who was either an equal of their generation, or was a gadol from a previous generation (and greater by the concept of yeridas hadoros – and closer to the mesora from matan torah).
That being said, if you are going by a Rav, asking details of how to follow tznius (or how your wife should) from him, and he is a G-d fearing Jew who is knowledgable in Torah (no labels or distinctions here! The ones who are not acceptable are not G-d fearing…!), then good for you, and you don’t have to argue with others about this…as long as everyone does “aseh lecha rav” and asks them, and FOLLOWS their psak!
As per the point about gold/jewelry, etc being more “showy” – I’m pretty certain the underlying point to these things is that if it’s not an eyesore by “minhag hamakom” (the accepted practice of that place) AND it is befitting a bas melech (daughter of THE king) – i.e. – not streety, shlumpy, etc….for anything beyond the basic coverage & not tight – then it fits with tznius. I believe when rabbonim say slits are assur even below the knee, their intent is that the way it attracts attention (with the peekaboo effect) is somewhat streety and not befitting a bas melech. There is no question that being covered in the basics come first. And if women are not ready to take on all the “proper” tznius beyond the basics at once (or change makom and the minhag hamakom is different and it’s too much to take on at once), you should ask the advice of your rav what to choose first and in what time frame, that you can handle, to take on more of it (just like a baal teshuva has to with mandatory mitzvos.)
Like someone else said in a earlier post, A Jew’s tachlis (job) in this world is to better themselves – no one is asking that you do too much for yourself, as long as you are “moving up”…and if some do ask too much, they have unrealistic expectations – but growing in Torah & mitzvos is trying to grow in doing what G-d wants from us…
Chazak v’Amatz!
To Joseph – So far, I have agreed with just about every shtark “shita” of yours I have seen on various posts…and I am impressed with just about all of them. But I do have to contend with 1 point in your first postings here…you imply that ALL torah she’beal peh is assur for women. From what I have seen, and/or heard from gedolim, they don’t specify that any learning is assur for women except for being very shtark that GEMORA is not accepted. I would be curious to see if you found that Rav Moshe or anyone like that insisted that mishnayos (when it’s nogeiah or if necessary to help/teach a son), or other torah she’beal peh is truly assur or even extremely wrong. If you do find it for me (as I am not a “bukie” b’shas v’poskim) I will stand corrected.
To the thread as a whole –
As per the original post, I am a kollel wife who is a “chavrusa” type – in mussar and halacha (the latter is to my husband’s credit, as I wasn’t as “into” it before we got married – I was mostly into mussar). Personally, I think that it really depends on both sides of the couple whether they want (or should want) a chavrusa or not. Clearly this girl was not for the OP. My husband was told by his (REAL) chavrusa, who ironically ended up being our shadchan, NOT to marry a chavrusa….and he DID…and he is very happy he did, because he is that “type”. That being said, I will admit to other women who are unmarried, and men who ARE looking for “chavrusa”s, that the chavrusa-type of women should get training b4 marriage in house stuff (cooking, cleaning, etc) and get used to it, because as a mother, it’s taken 8 years for me to get to this point of “managing” (WITH hubby’s help b”H) with housework – and when you don’t learn before marriage to get “sipuk” from anything besides seforim and the like, you will not be able to run a home well. To the guys – now that I mentioned the down side, the plus side of the “chavrusa” type is that they are women with more logic (“stira”? :p) and will be more analytical in life and able to come up solutions for a torah home more easily even when you are not around to advise her – and how to deal with ruchniyus issues as the kids get older even when ur away at yeshiva or work etc etc….. and she could always learn before marriage if she does chesed enough in pples houses how to “autopilot” in house tasks (or maybe she learned at home, even better)…
I am not sure how clear this is but I don’t have tome at the moment to write this out more thoroughly – I hope you get the drift and I am not misunderstood. Both are great “types” and both have their pluses and minuses and all have their basheret.
As far as the “hock” back and forth here – Rav Moshe, who IS the decisor posek, for sure for most of America, has a teshuva where he is very clear that women should not be learning Gemora.
Whether it is officially “assur” or not, personally I believe to be a mute point, since anyone looking to grow in avodas Hashem and do His ratzon (will), has so many other avenues for growth, learning and even “hasmoda”, that I can’t understand why anyone would choose to “davka” use that avenue, unless they are looking to prove a feministic agenda. That being said, I do not think most of the gedolim hold it is assur or wrong for a husband to quote what he learned in a given gemora (assuming they are not “learning gemora in depth” together), or for a women to be shown a quote from a gemora in order to prove something she NEEDS to know for her avodas Hashem.
I believe learning for what she NEEDS for her avodas Hashem, includes all or most sifrei mussar, kitzur halacha, english halacha, and even mishna berura (w/ shulchan aruch), if it will help her to be clearer on halachos that are nogeiah for her. This is how the frummest seminaries are madrich and “maskim” for their girls to learn, and regardless of the sources and differences of opinions in shas, it seems to be how the gedolim paskin for girls & women today.
That being said, I’m not sure why this whole “hock” needs to be “argued” or causing machlokes, as each person should have a rav who they can ask what and how to learn and whether they should continue a shidduch when they see potential red flags…instead of taking advice from the “hamon am” and causing possible machlokes on these threads…
Wolf said “However, I also believe that the current kollel paradigm is not sustainable.”
I agree, that LOGICALLY it is not sustainable. However, if a Rothchild (or richer) father existed who couldn’t possibly lose their money (if there was such a thing in this world), then even their grandchildren and great-grandchildren wouldn’t feel a need to worry about income/parnosa….Kal v’chomer we have melech malchei hamelochim, to Whom all money belongs (and then some!) and if we are doing His ratzon, you can be sure that He will take care of us.
That is for someone who CAN sit and learn, even if they are not a genius, but have the hasmoda, etc. Chazal say that out of 1000 who go into learning, only 1 will become a great talmid chochom….so you can imagine if we need several talmidei chochomim, we need quite a few masmidim delving into torah all day.
Many gedolim today say “going out in the world” today is such that, while one can learn torah too and get schar, the world is so corrupt that it is no longer possible to achieve “gadlus b’torah” (to become a talmid chochom, or a moreh horaah, or a posek hador), by being out in the world.
That being said, there is no question that those who “batul” or just aren’t cut out that they feel they can’t learn, should work (& learn if they can, or at least support torah, or both), with the ok of their rav (as some may feel burnt out but just need a change or the like to be able to reapply themselves with full hasmada).
Regardless I don’t know why there’s a whole “hock” and back and forth here, unless you want to rename the thread “Belief in Chachomim – yes or no?”….since assuming you do believe in Gedolim, and Emunas Chachomim and “asei lecha rav”, each person should just speak to their own Rav and it will be very clear if they should be sitting in kollel or not….I don’t think anyone becomes greater in their avodas Hashem by analyzing what “Yenem” is doing or should be doing…and he might have asked his Rav and is living life doing his tafkid without analyzing if what others is doing is right or not!
Really a waste of energy and brain power that could be channeled toward avodas Hashem IMHO….
Please post the kedoshim’s hebrew names for learning/davening l’iluy nishmasam (ie Gavriel Noach ben ? (father’s name) ) Thank you! The response is truly heartwarming, it should be a zechus for their neshamos, and for a geula sheleimah b’meheirah!