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@ujm
I’m not sure if my previous post went through as I got an error message- so here it is again. Apologies if it’s a duplicate.I’m not either an expert but based on discussions I had with a former supervisor who lived in the outskirts or Queens or on Long Island I believe that it’s true.
He said that the district raised property taxes sky high (with the blessings of the residents) to keep the riff raff from moving in and used the extra money to create public schools that are on par with the most prestigious private schools.
Reb Avram-
1. So the US Government doesn’t run the ACA but they created a system that was mathematically guaranteed to fail and the states need to follow it. I got to see lots of this stuff first hand during the year that I worked in the ACA and it was pathetic to think that someone actually thought it would work. Most of the stuff is too complicated to discuss here and isn’t readily available online (you need to dig pretty deep in some of the endless files on the CMS website) but take a look at the Risk Corridor 2014 payments catastrophe to begin getting an idea. (In short, despite promising that it’ll be paid out at 100% it was paid out at only 12.6% and many companies were shut down because of that.) I’m not even judging them by the rollout disaster.
2. Public Schools (the ones that I’m referring to) are a huge disaster as they waste hundreds of billions of Dollars and have little to nothing to show for it. I believe that the same will be true if the healthcare system turns into a single payer system. In short- I was referring to the hundreds of billions of Dollars that will be wasted- regardless of who pays for it or how it’s paid.
3. I consider a huge salary to include those who work for unions and are getting paid much more than they would be getting if they were paid the going rate- especially the public-school teachers that have nothing to show for it. Many places publish the salaries of public employees online so you can take a look. I consider a meager salary to be the salary of those who get pretty low compensation when they have lots to show for their work (i.e. many Rabbeim…).
4. Regardless of who is at blame, who caused it, weather you believe it or not or the amount spent on each age group- the point is that hundreds of billions of Dollars is wasted every year on preventable claims. That number needs to come down before a single payer system can work.
Ok, you got me there. I wasn’t reading your posts carefully and I apologize. I believe I misunderstood a comment of yours that health insurance companies shouldn’t be run by high paid CEOs, I took that to mean that you felt that they should be run by low paid CEOs and not that you felt that they should be shut down altogether. I was fixated on that point and my posts reflect that.
I’d still like to continue our discussion if you don’t mind. And again, I apologize for any frustration I may have caused you.
א גוטין חודש
Avi
ATTN: MODS
“Can you break up the super long posts into shorter ones? Or send more coffee over to Mods HQ?”
I don’t use any foul language, Lashon Hora or viscous attacks in my post so you don’t need to moderate them before approving them.
“Medicare works”
Ok, here’s another important point of mine that you ignored. I mentioned earlier that Medicare is generally for people aged 65 and older. People that age grew up in a different era where they took more responsibility for their health. Once you start including the younger generations the costs will spiral out of control.
“here other countries manage. I see no reason why the US can’t manage soemthing similar.”
Again, it’s the culture ingrained nowadays in the US that life and health are practically worthless.
“The fact that something else was tried has nothing to do with this .”
To me it does- it proves that the US Government has no clue how to manage healthcare for those under 65.
“Sure
No premiums. taxes go up. Government pays for health costs.
Easy peasy
Same as medicare just for everybody”That’s easier said than done. It’s like saying you can fit five elephants in a Volkswagen by putting two in the front and three in the back.
“I am nto sure what there is to address. But I’ll repeat it again so encourage people to care about their health.”
That’s not my problem and I have no idea how to go about doing it- it’s a horrible culture that they’ve been brought up in- if you’re trying to get a single payer system to work you need to first figure out how get people to take responsibility for their own health. That’s the first step.
“for the 21st? Time they shouldn’t survive. that is my plan.
How on earth are you still not getting this?”You made it clear that you don’t like health insurance companies, you’ve made it clear that you don’t like it that CEOs make so much, you’ve made it clear that you don’t think companies need high paid CEOs to survive and you’ve made it clear that health insurance companies should be not-for profits with low paid CEOs- I don’t believe you’ve said that they should all be closed down.
“Take one day’s worth of the Ceo’s salary use it to pay my neighbor’s cancer treatment for 2 years (10,000 a month), the ceo will barely notice the missing money its not even a rounding wrror. And neighbor gets to live a few more years . I know I know “no sane person” would expect insurance company to shell out money just to gain few years (The rep practically told him that too) . and leshitascha I can’t blame them they have to make profit.”
The massive salaries that the CEOs make can not pay for all the claims that are denied (it’s not only your neighbor whose claims are getting denied). This is a problem with a for profit company (the health of the insureds should come first but the wallets of the shareholders have a higher priority) and I’d be all for a single payer system if there’s a chance that it’ll work.
“This is incorrect Medicare is very popular.
and by far the easiest company to deal with.”Of course it’s easy to get them to give out other people’s money- those weren’t the issues I was having with them. One issue I was having with them was when I needed a response from a certain person regarding a report I needed to submit that was already overdue. She (and her supervisors) ignored my repeated calls, voicemails and emails for over a month. When I learned that she was hosting a webinar I joined and during the Q & A at the end I asked my question. She gave me the wrong answer and when I pointed it out based on guidance published by CMS she said she would look into it and get back to me. Despite numerous attempts to contact her (and her supervisors) I never heard back from them.
“what ? Seriously, What?”
What part don’t you understand- that a CEOs salary is based on his / her performance determined by the board or my idea what you could do if it bothers you?
“Again?
Sure. so encourage people to take more responsibility. You got me. I’m in.”Yes, Again- until this issue is resolved a single payer system will not work.
“Sure.
firstly Medicare works so no reason to compare to ecucation which is less similar.”As mentioned previously, Medicare works because it’s for a more responsible part of the population. Education is less similar but similar enough in that it’s failing because the people that it serves don’t take responsibility for themselves or their kids.
When I used to take my kids to the doctor for an ear infection I would make sure to follow the doctors directions and pick up the medication right away- aside from not wanting my kids to be in pain I didn’t want to have to pay the copayments for follow up visits. For people who don’t care about their kids (i.e. the ones who send them to public school, have no idea that their kid is failing every single subject and barely ever shows up to class) and aren’t concerned with a copayment- what incentive is there to follow the doctors recommendations? This attitude is one of the things that is going to break the system.
“Second all the government will be doing is paying the bills.”
If they keep paying all the bills (with no cost to the patient) what’s going to discourage someone with a paper cut from going to the emergency room, taking up a bed, wasting precious resources and having the government pay hundreds or thousands of Dollars- instead of them just going to Duane Reade and spending a few Dollars to get a box of Band-Aids? Eventually they’re going to have to do some denial of claims and then it’s going to be the government that decides who’s going to live and who’s going to die? Does it make you happier that it’s the government deciding and not some rich, greedy CEO?
“And I’m not sure how you think private medical insurance makes sure their clients are listening to doctors any more than Medicare does.”
That’s what copayments and deductibles are for- to discourage unnecessary follow-ups and encouraging the patient to follow the doctors directions. Besides- when people pay for things with their own money (i.e. health insurance premiums and private education) they tend to value it more.
“I dont understand this.
I support one idea, why do I “have to” defend a different idea ?”As I’ve said before but you never adequately answered (a strong point that you ignored)- you’re advocating for the US Government, who failed miserably at the ACA, to be in charge of a single payer system. You need to explain why you think the same US Government could successfully run something of a much larger magnitude.
“I am advocating paying less for a higher quality system.”
That was former President Obama’s claim with the ACA- the typical family will save $2,500 per year in healthcare- and we all saw that it wasn’t the case. I understand that you’re advocating for that (and I wish it were possible) but you haven’t explained how we’re going to end up paying less (where the money is going to come from) or how the quality is going to go up.
Would you mind explaining how you think it’s going to work?
“By any Benchmark the US pays MORE for healthcare. By most benchmarks we have worse outcomes.”
I’ve said this point before and you haven’t addressed is so I’m going to repeat again- this is mostly due to the irresponsible culture here of people not caring about their health or taking responsibility for their wellbeing.
“Same for healthcare. “Hey it works for me who cares about those it doesnt work for, that is just a necessary evil” (almost a verbatim quote)”
Where’s this coming from? You can’t ask people who are struggling to make their own health care payments (already so overpriced due to the people who refuse to responsibly of their health) to care more about someone else’s health than they care about their own. (Again- I’m referring to those who are fully capable of taking care of themselves but refuse to, not people sick with illnesses that they didn’t bring upon themselves.)
“As I said (20 times?) I don’t think health insurance should be a for profit industry. So while you keep repeating this point over and over. It has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand .”
You’ve said that health insurance companies don’t need to be run by high paid CEOs- did you mean to say that for health insurance companies to work they need high paid CEOs but health insurance companies shouldn’t exist at all? You still haven’t explained how a company will survive with a low paid CEO.
“Ok so CEO wont be filthy rich. I’m fine with using that extra $$$ to approve more cancer treatments.”
Then the CEO will resign and become a high paid CEO elsewhere. I agree that they’re greedy but we need them to run our corporations which provide employment to millions of people making a modest salary and provide goods and services to hundreds of millions of people. Go ahead and replace them with well-meaning but low paid CEOs and watch how fast everything will fall apart and make things worse for everyone.
“You say there is no CEO of a healthcare company that gets a reasonable salary. Yes I know, THAT is the problem The problem IS that health insurance IS a for profit venture. Yes Its hard to find a reasonably paid CEO, that is EXACTLY the problem. Have I really not said this ????”
I didn’t write that there isn’t one (I’m not saying that there is, I have no idea one way or the other). I just asked if you could explain how it could work without one. Until a not-for profit system can be designed we need for profit companies which come along with high paid CEOs. I mentioned how practically every single COOP (not for profits that received Billions of Dollars and had low paid CEOs) failed.
“But if you insist as far as I can tell Chiquita Brooks-Lasure the head of CMS (center for medicare and medicaid services) makes $249,723.”
CMS isn’t a private company- it’s a government agency. From the ridiculous dealings I had with them (while working in the ACA) and the sheer incompetence of the people working there all I can say is that a typical company that acted like that would be out of business within a year. The president of the US also makes a mere fraction of what these CEOs make- but again- no company could survive with him at the helm.
“In contrast Cigna CEO David Cordani took home more than $91 million in 2021 thats more than 364 times as much!!! put another way, he made her salary every single day of the year minus his birthday.”
Obviously the shareholders and board which determines his compensation felt that that’s what he’s worth. If you feel that he’s overpaid start a mutual, not-for-profit company that’s owned by the policy holders, become the low paid CEO, pay all claims, charge lower premiums and if you can stay in business you can put them out of business- that’ll show them.
“As I said over a month ago (February 2, 2023 5:35 pm) that is a technicality. If you want to increase taxes on smoking /sugary drinks etc to encourage good behavior. sure I can get on board. You want some sort of mandatory exercise program, I’m a bit squeamish but ok if thats what it takes I’m in”
You may have said that over a month ago but it still doesn’t respond to my strong point that a single payer system CAN NOT work until people start taking more responsibility for their health. Can you please respond to that directly?
“My apologies I missed all of your “strong points”
Do you mind repeating them”Sure- here’s one of them.
I mentioned a few times that a single payer system will turn into a calamity the size of the public school disaster. Some school systems pay in the $30,000 range per student yet don’t have a single student that is proficient in math ot English. All this while the teachers (some of them who have no business being around children but are protected by the powerful unions) are bringing in huge salaries. After paying for all this in taxes, families that want their kids to get an education are forced to send their kids to private schools at an additional expense.
With a single payer free health care for all, you’re going to have people who don’t take care of their (or their kids’) health, don’t follow doctors directions and end up costing the system billions of Dollars in unnecessary expenses while clogging up doctors’ offices, hospitals and emergency rooms. What’s going to end up happening is that those of us who care about our health and currently have insurance are going to have to pay more in taxes for a single payer system while having to take out private insurance all over again if we want quality health care.
“There were no points in this last post that were strong nor that I didn’t previously reply to”
Uh- there was- the comparison to the public school that I just repeated again. Please explain why it’ll be different
Can you break up the super long posts into shorter ones? Or send more coffee over to Mods HQ?
“I’m not defending ACA because that is not my proposal. A single payer system was proposed but quickly shot down.”
You’re going to have to defend the ACA if you’re insisting that the government can come up with a single player system that’ll work after they failed miserably on something of a much smaller scale.
“That hasn’t been my experience.
Most people I talk to who have had a medical expense (Cancer treatment denied, procedure denied both in the past week) do not think this is working. They are sane people, but whereas you “sympathize with them and wish something can be done” I know that something can be done”There are exceptions- I agree, that’s why I used the word “probably”- to exclude people who, for extreme circumstances, would not be in that category. Please explain though why any sane person (not in an extreme situation) would want to pay more for a lower quality healthcare system?
“You remind me of the Onion article that runs after every mass shooting “”‘No Way to Prevent This’, Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens””
The reason why we’re the only nation where this regularly happens is because we’re the only nation where it’s ingrained in people’s culture that life (their own or others) has little to no value. Change that culture and the number of mass shootings will go down.
“I can hear it:
“No way to fix this says only country where medical bills is leading cause of bankruptcy” !
And “we have the best healthcare system in the world says the country with highest healthcare expenditure and lowest life expectancy of (almost) any western country””Sure there’s a way to fix this. Change the culture of people and teach them the value of life at a young age. Look at all the unhealthy lifestyles that people have- get them to make healthier choices from when they’re young and the healthcare expenditure will go down and the life expectancy will go up. Instead, we have people like you putting the blame in the wrong place. Once people start taking responsibility for themselves- then a single player system can be a viable option. Until then- it’s going to crash and we’re all going to be worse off.
At this point I’m getting pretty frustrated with this discussion. I respond to practically everything that you write (no matter how many times you repeat the same thing in different words) and you don’t respond to many of the strong points that I make. The points that you do respond to, you don’t bring up any claim to back it up.
I’m happy to continue this conversation if you can answer my questions straight to the point. If not, it was a pleasure discussing this with you but I’m done.
1. You mentioned that health insurance companies don’t need high paid CEOs to function. I brought you many examples of non-public companies run by low paid CEOs that failed miserably (the ACA COOPS). Can you show me (or explain how it’s possible) a health insurance company (public or private) that functions with a low paid CEO?
2. I opined that until people learn to take responsibility for themselves a single payer healthcare system will turn into a calamity the size of the public school system where those who want quality healthcare will have to pay for their own insurance above the extra taxes they are already paying to fund the single payer system. Can you please explain why you disagree with that?
“Medicare already exists, its popular it works
all we need to do is expand it. We can lower age to 55 then 45 etc etc”Once people made it to Medicare eligible age, I’d put most of them in the category of those who take responsibility for themselves. The bulk of them are retirees not doing stupid things like drugs, drunk driving… Once you start lowering Medicare to start including the age rage where people don’t take responsibility for themselves it’ll fail.
“I’m not defending the ACe, mentioned that earleir .”
Why aren’t you going to defend it? If the government failed catastrophically at the ACA, why do you think they’re going to succeed at something that’s going to be much larger?
“Other countries manage. We can do it! don;t give up so easily We are the best USA USA ! We put a man on the moon! We can do anything! Murica!!!”
What other country has citizens that are as unhealthy as US Citizens and has universal healthcare that works? In order for it to work the citizens need to start taking care of themselves and get themselves healthier. This will take a few decades but can be done. As of now we’re heading in the wrong direction full speed so I don’t see it becoming feasible within the next few generations.
“Do you disagree that high paid CEOs are needed for health insurance companies to function?
Yes”Can you explain how it would work (or show some examples) without high paid CEOs?
“It wont last. I ve said this several times. for profit healthcare system CANNOT work. By design to profit they HAVE to deny care. people have to needlessly die/suffer. You said this.”
What I meant was for you to go ahead and start a not-for-profit company that pays all claims and become its low paid CEO. Let’s see how long that lasts.
“now if you say the benmefit outweigh that. fien I hear. I disagree but Ihear.
But then you miz up your messages and tell me that healthcare companies need to make a profit.
YEs that is YOUR position not mine. I have said that a few times. I am not sure wh yyou keep repeating that.”I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.
“No Not finally.
I said that from the begining when I pointed out that you hypothetical was illy.”I mentioned numerous times that my hypothetical situation was meant for @jackk just to get a starting point where we’d probably agree on something, unfortunately he (and @CTLAWYER) refused to acknowledge the post. It was NEVER meant to represent a situation that can ever come up in real life.
“Yes for a healthcare company to profit they have to deny healthcare. people need to suffer/die/go bankrupt. There is no other way.
(you said this to me a few times as if I didnt get taht, I get it that is EXACTLY the problem with outr current system. IT CANNOT work for everyone)”
Yes, I said this and I still stand behind this. It’s unfortunate and it doesn’t work for many people. I sympathize with them and wish something can be done. Unfortunately, the amount of people that the health care system won’t work for will sky rocket if the government takes over which is why the current system needs to stay in place for the time being. Like I keep saying, just because we have a system that doesn’t work 100% of the time for 100% of the people, doesn’t mean that you throw it out for a system that is guaranteed to fail.
“The only way to have it work for everyone is for the government to step in.”
This is 100% wrong. The system will not work for everyone if the government steps in and will eventually collapse- possibly taking all aspects of healthcare with it.
“There are 2 reasons I can think of why someone would oppsoe this
1) Dont think it would work
2) don;t think governemtn should be involved even if would work.”I’m in the first category (as well as probably every sane person in the country who currently has health insurance)- I have no problem with the government running it- as long as they have a realistic plan. The last time they tried this (i.e. the ACA), they failed miserably. The only people in the second category are probably sovereign citizens and those who wear tin-foil caps.
“1- I don’t fully get. so make it work. It works for Medicare it works in other countries. It works for dialysis patients expand it to cancer expand the age for medicare.”
So make it work? That’s easier said than done.
(I’m not familiar with kidney dialysis but does Mediare actually pay for all their expenses?)“I say denying healthcare is a non starter if thats the only way it can function,”
It’s too late for that- health insurance companies have already been started, are going strong and are here to stay.“then we need a different way. Period If that means Insurance will no longer be the lucrative field it is (one that MADE money during a pandemic!!!)”
Sounds good to me, go find another way- one that’ll work though. Just because something isn’t functioning 100% doesn’t mean that you get rid of it for something that has a 0% chance of succeeding.“and instead we a need a non-for profit system or Government run Ok so be it.”
The government tried that already with the COOPs (part of the ACA). Each state was supposed to have one, they were supposed to be not for profit and the CEOs (or any employee) couldn’t make too much money. The government pumped billions of Dollars into them and they practically all failed within a few years (causing the providers to lose hundreds of millions of Dollars in unpaid claims and causing the policy holders to lose thousands of Dollars each in high deductibles that had to be restarted mid-year).“But denying healthcare a patient and or doctor* deems neccesary is a non-starter for me”
Again, just because the system isn’t functioning 100% of the time for 100% of the people- doesn’t mean that you get rid of it for something that has no chance of working.“disagree completely”
It would help if you would let me know what part of my comment you’re disagreeing on.Do you disagree that CEOs make lots of money in their positions?
I’ve never researched this but I think the salaries of CEOs in publicly traded companies is available online.Do you disagree that high paid CEOs are needed for health insurance companies to function?
Again, take a look at the failure of the COOPs where CEOs weren’t allowed to make too much money.If you think it’s possible, go ahead and start a company that pays all claims- let’s see how long it lasts.
“Agree but while you view that as a feature. To me hat is a bug. In other words yes That is the way it has to be to function this way. My reply is: It cant be that way there fore it shouldnt function this way. we need a new system. Period.”
It’s an unfortunate feature- If companies just approve every claim they’re going to go out of business as premiums weren’t priced based on that. If they raise the premiums to be able to afford to pay all claims- the policy holders will just switch to a company that doesn’t pay all claims. You’re correct that it shouldn’t be that way but, again, just because there’s problems with a system doesn’t mean that you throw it out for a system that’s guaranteed to fail.“Yes becasue of what yyou addmitted was “as unfortunate as it may be” If it is unfortunate, change it! It doesnt HAVE to be this way. We chose this.”
Again- just because a system is unfortunately not working 100% doesn’t necessarily mean that there is a way to fix it or that changing the system will be better. It doesn’t necessarily even mean that it’s the design of the system that’s flawed- the system could also be harmed by people who aren’t even part of it but are still bringing it down.“YES! that is where we disagree. As I said from one of my first posts”
Finally! We agree on what we disagree on. As I mentioned in an earlier post- in order for a government run healthcare to work in this country the inhabitants need to start taking more responsibility for themselves- and we’re decades away from this and heading full speed in the wrong direction. Were the government to take over it would turn into an epic disaster probably the same size as the public-school calamity. Taxes will go up; the system will barely work for anyone and those who are serious about their healthcare are going to have to buy their own insurance (above what they’re already paying in their increased taxes).I strongly feel that a system that’s working, but not for 100% of the people, shouldn’t be thrown out for a system that is guaranteed to fail catastrophically. Apparently, you disagree.
Thanks for taking the time to break down the issues and discuss them one at a time- we can now see where we agree and where we disagree.
We seem to agree that CEOs make lots of money in their positions and that high paid CEOs are needed for the health insurance companies to function. We also agree that (as unfortunate as it may be) CEOs (and companies) need to either be aggressive in denying claims (lawfully or unlawfully) to keep premiums down or they’ll either go bankrupt or put out of business by the competition. (It’s wrong, I know, but that’s the only way it can function.) We finally seem to agree that a physician should be doing everything for the best interest of a patient and setting aside how his / her decision will affect the bottom line of the company.
What we seem to disagree on is who should be running the healthcare in this country.
Despite all the problems going on with corporations running healthcare as a business I still think it’s the lesser of the two evils. Just because there are decisions that are being made that are morally wrong doesn’t mean the alternative is better.
A government probably could run an efficient healthcare system but the United States is decades away from that happening. The catastrophic implosion of the ACA proves that the government is nowhere near ready to take over the entire system. Even if the Government knew what they were doing, for such a system to work the culture of citizens needs to change- they need to take more responsibility for their health and actions and realize that just because they’re not paying for something doesn’t mean that it’s free (i.e. not costing anyone anything).
If the US Government would suddenly take over all aspects of healthcare it would turn into a crisis like the public school systems in many cities and states. Tuition is free, many schools have entire grades where not a single student is proficient in English or Math, truancy is rampant, teachers couldn’t care less about what goes on but use the unions to inflate their salaries and parents blame the teachers and schools when their kids fail (while they didn’t know or care that their kids weren’t even going to school). Everyone (who pays taxes) pays for the public school systems with their taxes and if someone wants a quality education for their kids they need to pay for a private school on top of that.
Imagine the same with public healthcare run by the government- doctors’ offices, hospitals and emergency rooms would be full of people expecting the system to take care of them while they refuse to follow the directions given to them, show up for follow-ups or do anything to improve their health. Taxes would shoot up to pay for this and anyone who seriously wants to take care of their health would need to pay out of pocket (above what they’re already paying in extra taxes) to go to a doctor that’s not part of the system.
So down the road it may be possible but it doesn’t look promising as the country is headed full throttle in the wrong direction.
“Percentage alone isnt everything”
That’s definitely correct, there are many, many more metrics that can be used to quantify data. However, given that CMS uses a percentage it’s the most appropriate metric to quantify this data.“The Ceo’s and Presidents of insurance companies get paid multiple millions of dollars”
That’s correct again. There aren’t too many people on the planet that can accomplish what CEOs of large companies accomplish and those that can do it and are willing to give up their personal lives can command whatever salary they want. If you don’t like it start your own company and pay the CEO $150,000, let’s see what kind of CEO you get and how long the company remains afloat.“At one Point Mark Bertoloni received almost 28 million dollars in one year. while running a company that denies claims that could have saved lives.”
This is morally wrong but he’s a businessman and makes business decisions. Had he approved all of the claims that were denied the company would either have gone out of business or had to raise premiums much higher than the competition and then gone out of business the next year. It’s wrong, I agree- but that’s how it needs to be in order for it to work.“What I was most outraged about whas the physician who just rubber stamps what nurse had previously denied. what is the poitn of having a physician reviewer if he isnt actually reviewing it?”
That was totally appalling- physicians shouldn’t be businessmen, they should forget about money and do what it takes to make the patient as healthy as possible.“It is their business model . Yes they have t pay 85% that still leaves millions and million and millions for their top executives .”
The 15% doesn’t only go to executives, it goes to all employees, marketing, real estate, IT, employee benefits and many other expenses. The top executives do get millions but the company wouldn’t function without them.
“I question your statement that the bill of healthcare expenses could be avoided if people took care of themselves from a young age.”
I’m going to assume that you meant to write “bulk”, but anyway- I got that from a presentation made by actuaries and they had the ratio at around 85% avoidable to 15% unavoidable. Luckily, I hopped off the gravy train I was riding at the time at the last stop before its catastrophic crash. Unfortunately, though, as I’m no longer in the health care industry, I don’t have access to that presentation and I can’t find the slides I thought I saved.
@jackk mentioned pregnancies in a previous thread and I was looking for the study to see its sources and see if they counted pregnancies as avoidable or unavoidable but as I mentioned I couldn’t track it down.So Bli Nader until I can find the presentation and investigate the sources, I’ll try not to write that the “bulk of medical costs are avoidable” but rather “hundreds of billions of Dollars in medical costs are avoidable”.
You mentioned that you’re a supporter of the ACA- in your personal opinion, how do you justify the catastrophic consequences it had on millions of families whose medical expenses went up by around $10,000 annually? If they’re hard-working families and already had generous coverage- is it fair to make them pay so much more?
I read the article (it’s long) and I was shaking and fuming. I’ll get to that later on.
“The only point I said wasn’t true was this”
Can we hit the reset button on this? I was having a pleasant discussion with you where, although we didn’t agree on everything, we discussed things peacefully and respectfully. What I meant to say what that there possibly could have been a better choice of words. You probably didn’t mean any harm but comments like that can potentially be perceived as a personal attack and disturb the flow of the conversation.
Most of the complaints against healthcare were, in my opinion, unfairly pointed at insurance companies. As I mentioned earlier, they cannot raise premiums at their whim and 80% or 85% of premiums must go to providers, any additional premiums collected are returned.
As far as the government providing free health care and dental care- I think theoretically a government should but given the culture of the citizens here we’re way too far away from that becoming a reality. (The money has to come from somewhere and people need to take more responsibility for their health. Until that happens any attempt will implode pretty fast.)
I feel bad for you for the trouble you’re going through with health insurers- I normally don’t have those kinds of stories. The issues I’ve had normally begin with a claim being denied due to a provider putting an incorrect diagnosis code or procedure code (they’re extremely confusing) and then the insurance company not paying until the error is corrected. I then get the run around from the provider who wants to get paid (their billing department says that they can’t change what the doctor wrote) and the doctor who doesn’t have time to call back or review / correct the records. These could take months to resolve and even get sent to collection agencies (I know it’s frustrating) but ultimately, it’s not the insurer at fault.
As far as the story you mentioned is concerned- I hope that’s the exception and not the norm. I found it sickening that they were willing to save money by taking a business risk at the expense of a different human’s quality of life. Equally as sickening was the immature giggling you can hear in their phone conversation when they came up with the excuse to discontinue his drug coverage. (Even if they had a valid reason to deny the claim- any human that can laugh at saving money at the expense of another human has no business being making any health decision for anyone else.)
If this unfortunately does go on on a regular basis then I take back what I wrote earlier and agree that health insurers share a larger percentage of blame in this mess than I earlier attributed to them.
Have a Gut Shabbos
“Sure! in one of my first comments to you
here it is:”I posted a point that I was trying to make which was 100% true and you said that it wasn’t true. I asked if you could respectfully mention that you had a different point in mind instead of accusing me of lying. You left out the second half of my sentence in your response. (And no, an earlier post of yours cannot constitute a response to a later post of mine.)
Anyway- from my point of view this thread has run its course- I answered a number of questions other posters had but they still want to point the blame in the wrong place. I don’t think there’s anything else I can add.
I explained why actuarially it’s not possible to have reasonable premiums and coverage for dental care but people still think that insurance companies are selfish capitalists.
I mentioned that the ACA mathematically had a 0% chance of working as designed (it’s more complicated than dental care but I was willing to discuss it if anyone had any questions) but posters still consider health insurers to be greedy corporations.
The issues that you brought up, having to find new doctors every time your employer switches insurers, is more of a problem with your employer not keeping the same plan and your providers not being in consistent networks than with health insurers trying to be stingy. Sure, it’s annoying and I sympathize with you but you need to put the blame where it belongs.
I didn’t read the story you mentioned but I’ll agree with you that there can be some bad apples out there just like there is in any industry, that doesn’t mean that the insurance industry is rotten to the core.
As far as insurance companies raising rates whenever they want to make the greedy executives even richer- that’s a lie. As I mentioned before- insurers have to file a rate increase with the state before they can raise the rates and the state usually doesn’t allow the full increase applied for. This is on the CMS website.
Also, on the CMS website you can read about the MLR- Medical Loss Ratio. Depending on the plan 80% to 85% of premiums have to go to medical claims, the other 15% to 20% can go to marketing, salaries, benefits, real estate, bonuses… If the claims ratio doesn’t reach the threshold the insurer needs to return the excess to the policy holders- they cannot pocket it.
So, in short- NO, insurers cannot raise premiums on their whim to enrich themselves.
“no, I’m mising YOUR point. yo uare trying to make this about Obamacare and your specific circumstance (not that I blame you)
reread my comments, I am not discussing Obamacare.”My point was specifically regarding the catastrophic consequences on hard working families caused by the ACA and I explicitly mentioned that.
If you were referring to a different point can I respectfully suggest that you mention that instead of saying that something I wrote wasn’t true? It disturbs the peaceful flow of this discussion.
“I did but they don’t care. and there is not much I cna do about it other than quit. and a system where you have to quit to keep your doctor is even crzier than finding a new doctor in my opinion.”
I feel bad for you, it’s definitely not a good situation, but it seems like this issue is caused by your employer and providers, not the insurance companies. When my employer switched insurers the providers were in both networks so I’m wondering what’s going on as it seems like the premiums you and your employer are paying are much higher than the premiums paid by me and my employer (I.e. the networks should be around as good)? Do you work for a Frum place? Frum employers tend to have higher premiums.
The only doctors I recall switching from where two that weren’t honest (one billed me for a sick visit by my annual physical even though I felt great and one diagnosed me with a disease I didn’t have).
“Great We agree then!
Medicare for all!!! Huzzah”Whoa- not so fast. It’ll take generations to implement. First we need to get people to take responsibility for themselves. A major part of that is getting rid of the culture embedded into the youngest of our citizens that their health isn’t their problem. Keep in mind that there’s a major political party paying people to be takers and vote for them. Even if the makers are still a majority the takers are reproducing at a much faster rate.
As I’ve mentioned before and I’ll mention again- insurance companies are in the business of collecting premiums to assume risk. The higher the risk the more premiums they charge.
Insurance companies lost hundreds of millions of Dollars due to the ACA and many companies were put out of business causing providers and their insureds to lose additional hundreds of millions of Dollars.
Why do you consider insurance companies any more greedy than any other corporation that’s trying to make a profit (e.g. a car dealership, a cruise line, and an amusement park…)
“There is nothing stopping them from raising premiums and lowering coverage.”
That’s another one of your lies! Insurance companies have to file proposed rates hikes with the state, justify them and wait until they get approved. Check out the CMS website for more information.
“All this was happening before Obama.”
That’s true- he didn’t invent the freeloaders, he just came along and exasperated the problem exponentially.
“Individual Americans have no recourse.”
That’s another lie! Just because you don’t want to do something doesn’t mean that you can’t. Individual Americans can go ahead and vote Republican.
“This is not true
The increase in tax was $695 that is ti . And it ONLY applied if you dindnt have health insurance .”Again- you’re purposely totally missing the point. I specifically wrote that it wasn’t an “income tax or sales tax but it was a forced tax on the hard working makers to pay the premiums for the lazy takers”. My portion of the monthly premiums went up by around $200 and my employers portion went up by $200 as well. The annual deductable went from $250 to $7,500. Again- this was not a typical tax per se but an extra expense forced on me by the ACA through former President Obama.
“right , a complelty insane system. so if I change jobs I may need a new doctor. If my employer gets a better deal I and chanegs companies I may need a new doctor it is crazy.”
Complain to your employer if they keep switching insurers or complain to your doctor if he / she isn’t in enough networks. Insurers attempt to keep premiums down by agressively negotiating with providers who want to be in network. If your provider is too greedy to agree to the insurers terms you can’t blame the insurer.
“what on Earth does my insirance have to do with my employer”
As I explained earler- the fact that you can report to work makes you appear healthier than the general population and makes the premiums cheaper. If you’d rather pay more to have a consistent policy that doesn’t change from year to year go ahead a buy one on your own. The percentage that the premiums increase from year to year will be significantly higher.
“Yes youve said that the problem is it isnt the just the “lazy” who get cancer .”
I’m not sure what you meant to write over here. But again, too much of health care costs in the US are avoidable if people were to ask responsibly. Some costs are unavoidable and the government should be there if the patient was someone who for reasons beyond their control couldn’t get adequate coverage.
“and Again if it got you on board, Id support increased oversight on halthier diet/excerices increased regulations on smoking etc”
Yes, that would get me on board.
“Yes health insurance companies are greedy. I hate them too.”
Health insurance companies are there to make a profit just like any other company. Their business model is to take payments to assume a risk. Why do you consider them any more greedy that any other company that wants to make a profit?
“Not sure why you blame that on Obama.”
I don’t blame Former President Obama for insurance companies wanting to make a profit- I blame him for forcing me and tens of millions of other hardworking people to pick up the slack for those who choose not to work.
“If you dont mind my asking what was the change in benefits? Why dd it go up so much?”
Any changes in the benefits were negligible. The extra premium was to cover the premiums of those who aren’t going to be paying the premiums on their own. A deductible (and copayment) is to discourage people from calling an ambualnce to be rushed to the emergency room for a paper cut. The skyrocketing deductibles were to cover those who don’t have a deductible (or copayment) and will be calling an ambulance to be rushed to the emergency room for a paper cut. (As it’ll be cheaper for them than buying a Band-Aid from CVS.)
“I thank you for going back and forth about taxation and healthcare with DrP. He is getting answers that are very close to what I have written”
You’re answers have been purposely vague and do not address the points that I’ve made.
“but I simply do not have the patience to go back and forth.”
Excuse me for being blunt about this but you’re a LIAR. You’re not answering because you don’t have a valid answer. If you felt you had a reasonable response you’d have more than enough patience to respond.
“ standard options to pay for what the government spends are either raising taxes or let the deficit grow and hope that tax revenue will also grow without the need to raise taxes.”
Or to decrease taxes to the makers to stimulate the economy, encourage takers to become makers (which increases the amount of taxes collected, decreases the amount of taxes spent on takers, reduces the amount spent on crime and shrinks the overall deficit). But again, of course the liberals wouldn’t let that happen as the former takers will start voting Republican.
“oh fur sure theres a line.
Though probably more of a percentage than a real number. MEaning
If a person makes 100,000 one year then 1,000,000 then next year yes his taxes should go up by > 100,000.”Agreed, but that’s not what we’re talking about and you know that.
“no politiican would dream of raising taxes that much (for the average worker who didnt get a 10 fold increase in salary .”
Do you recall a former President named Barak Hussein Obama? He did exactly that. It may not have been in income tax or sales tax but it was a forced tax on the hard working makers to pay the premiums for the lazy takers and yes, my salary remained relatively the same but my health insurance costs skyrocketed by around $10,000 a year.
“However as I mentioned before there is an easy solution
I pay > 11K in premiums my boss pays the same
My boss pays me that money I sto ppaing private company. My taxes go up by 20K I pocket the remaining `3 K win win win”As I mentioned before that’s not going to work. Your expensive health insurance plan is cheaper because they know that you’re working which puts you in a healthier and more responsible class (which is a reason employers offer it in the first place). Once you don’t get insurance through your employer you’re not in that same group anymore.
“Again. I f you dont think the government should be involved in health care this comment is crazy. As I said that is the starting point”
I’ll mention again what I’ve been writing all along. The government should be involved in health care for those who (for mental and physical reasons) can not take care of themselves as well as those who are temporarily down on their luck, I.e. as a safety net. Not for lazy people who want society to do everything for them.
”Exactly s Ive been saying I think it should be government run with the money coming from taxes, think of an expanded medicare”
Again, this will not work until people start taking responsibility for themselves and the ratio of avoidable medical expenses to unavoidable expenses gets flipped.
The bulk of health care expenses in the US could be avoided if people were to take responsibility for themselves I.e. be health conscious from a young age, eat healthier, do less stupid dangerous things…
Instead of thinking about how to pay for it the government should be thinking of how to avoid the expenses in the first place. If more takers were makers there would be more people taking responsibility for their health, less people with too much free time on their hands to do dangerous things, less crime and more people paying health insurance premiums (that help pay for the medical care for people who need it due to no fault of their own). There would also be less people voting Democrat so the liberals in the government would never allow that to happen.
Do you sit down and try to figure out where you’re going to get the money to pay for a new car when it dies because you refuse to get an oil change or do you get and oil change at the manufacturers recommended intervals?
I wish the same to you and your family. While we have opposing opinions on just about everything I do sincerely care about you and daven for you every day that you should take a step back, take a look at the abominable anti-Torah political party that you ferociously defend and do teshuva before it’s too late.
“I am not posting in order to change anyone’s mind.”
That’s a good thing, when you get (hopefully up) to the next world after 120 you won’t be held responsible for the sins of those whose mind’s you changed when they read your posts.
“This whole post is a troll.
Joseph is not hiring anybody.”OK, we found some common ground here. YAY!
“So I posted my own little troll. The description of a republican bible when there isn’t any at all, is obviously coming from my imagination. I have applied for a trademark on the moshol of a republican pope and bible found in sedom.”
This wasn’t necessarily what I was referring to.
E.g. On a different thread some time back you mentioned that Elon Musk didn’t pay any income tax and I mentioned that CNN (not the most conservative website) wrote that he paid $11,000,000,000 in income tax. When I asked for your source you ignored my post.
You mentioned that false claim again this week and I again pointed that out- but you ignored that post as well.
I was asking here (although it could have been in any thread) why you state your opinion or make outrageous claims without being able to back them up.
My deepest sympathies to you and your entire family on your tragic loss. May Hashem give you all the strength to move forward.
“We as a community have an obligation to provide healthcare for all.”
This isn’t something I’m arguing on. However, as I’ve mentioned before, the money has to come from somewhere and I seem to disagree with others here as to where the money should be coming from.
I’ve also been stating for some time that the goverment should be teaching people at a younger age how to lead a healthy life style and set them up for success later on in life where they won’t have to rely on the goverment for food, housing, transportation, healthcare…
A Gutten Shabbos
“Of course some would argue that Having gotten a mortgage that leaves Them so vulnerable to a tax increase is irresponsible behavior what we would expect from Mr. B not A.”
There’s got to be a line drawn here as well. Would you say that someone who can’t afford a $100 annual tax increase without defaulting on their mortgage is irresponsible? Definitely.
How about $10,000 – Possibly.
How about $100,000 Definitely not.
Where do you draw the line?
“nonetheless even though some would call him irresponsible I still think he should have access to affordable health care”
I agree to this 100%, but the money needs to come from somewhere and we seem to disagree on where it should come from.
I had private insurance at the time (and still do) through my employer so while the premiums and deductibles skyrocketed they weren’t nearly as draconian as it was for those who didn’t have through their employer. (People who come in to work every day tend to be healthier and do less dangerous things than the general population so the part of the premium that insures them will be less while the part of the premium that insures the takers will be the same.)
“Are yo saying that ACA distorts the market to such a degree that it makes insurance impossible?”
I wrote that the design of the ACA doesn’t make mathematical sense and has a 0% chance of working as intended. Last I checked it was on life support and the government just keeps throwing more and more money into it. Do you recall when Former President Obama said that the average family will save $2,500 annually through the ACA? Have you seen that money yet?
“I believe large companies, like walmart, self-insure – does their method work?”
Some large companies to self-insure (they don’t need to be as large as Walmart to self-insure) but their rates went through the roof as well. There’s a checklist a health insurance plan needs to pass to be compliant and those plans need to pass them as well. (And like I said earlier- the premiums contain a huge chunk to cover the takers.)
“Is it possible to create an association of responsible daveners who also do not smoke and machmir in middos and pool an insurance coverage? maybe, self-insure?”
It’s highly unlikely. You probably don’t know much of what goes on in the background but such a pool woulnd’t be part of a network and would have to pay claims at the out of network rate. (Labs are notorious for charging hundres of Dollars for tests that get reduced to under $10 after the negotiated rate.) And as mentioned before- the pool wouldn’t be in comliance with the ACA.
“My mesroah says that there are at least 36 potential members in every generation – is this large enough for a pool?”
Uh, no- it’s not enough to spread the risk around for the medical conditions that don’t arise through negligence.
“I’m also sorry to hear about your hardship.”
So now that you see the devastating effects that the ACA had and continues to have on millions of hard working families, who were struggling beforehand to pay for their own healthcare, do you still think it was the right decision?
“We should not be discussing the ACA.”
Technically this discussion is about Dental care so you are correct but it would be foolish to not learn from the mistakes of the ACA.
“We are discussing basics of government’s responsibility to ensure that Americans do not need to travel to Hungary in order to get dental care because insurance is too expensive, does not cover everything and the premiums are through the roof.
.”The governments responsibility needs to stop somewhere already. The government should be in the business of building infrastructure for everyone, showing citizens at a young age how to be responsible for themselves later on and being there for those who physically or mentally can not take care of themselves as well as those who are temporarily down on their luck.
I explained earlier what the problem is with dental insurance. Insurance companies are a business that makes money by calculating risk and charging a premium to take the on the risk. The nature of dental claims is that large claims can sometimes be pushed off until the insured temporarily purchases a higher level of coverage. This behavior changes the “risk” into a “known” and the insurance company needs to raise the premiums through the roof and only cover part of the claim.
Let’s say drivers could look into a crystal ball to see if they’re going to be at fault for an accident for the upcoming year and only purchase insurance if they’re going to need it. Do you see why the insurer would need to dramatically raise the premiums and cut down on coverage in those cases?
As far as why the Hungarian dentists are so much cheaper- maybe the standard of living is less in Hungary so they could afford to charge less, maybe education is cheaper since they’re only paying for their education and not for all those people who took out loans for $400,000 to get a degree in gender studies and have no plans on paying it back or maybe they don’t have to spend enormous amounts on malpractice insurance as the population there isn’t so trigger happy to sue.
Ask your dentist next time you go.
Next question- could the government collect to the extent that a hard working family would lose their house?
“I cant say I love it, but if this would get you on board I’m in. Is that your suggestion?”
No, I think the government needs to step back and let people (again those who are capable) take care of themselves.
On a different thread I mentioned numerous items that are big issues now because people don’t take responsibility for themselves and rely on the government. This is bankrupting the country and can’t continue like this forever.
That post was far from the only post of his that I was referring to.
“first I’m sorry to hear about your hardship. ACA ws a while go, I hope things have improved .”
It was all for the best. Our lives are so much better now, the kids grew much more than had we stayed in NYC, I can get to Shachris in the morning (and make it through the entire day) without having to see the advertisements by the bus stops…
I also learned an important lesson- I was davening to Hashem for all the wrong things and was disappointed when my Tefillos weren’t answered. I asked Hashem if I could please finally get the promotion I was promised which would have enabled me to make my mortgage payments and not have to move. At the time I didn’t understand that I was davening for the wrong things but looking back now I’m so happy that my Tefillos weren’t answered for what I was asking for but for what Hashem knew we needed and what was best for us.
“What was the next question going to be?”
I would’ve taken cues from his response(s) but generally I would have changed the parameters one at a time until I got to the situation I was in due to the ACA.
I.e.
1. What if Mr. A is replaced with many Mr. A’s and each one is only charged $10,000?
2. What if Mr. B is replaced with many Mr. B’s, some of which are in their situation due to irresponsible choices while others are there from sheer bad luck?“ It is 2 pages long and ignores every word of Torah Shebiksav and Baal Peh.”
Why do you post opinions that you can’t back up when questioned?
The way to solve a problem is to think of something new- not try something that others have already tried and failed catastrophically at.
Unfortunately, the design of the ACA does not allow insurers to put the health of the policy holder first. (I doubt it was intentional but as Nancy Pelosi famously said, “ You need to pass it to see what’s in it”). There have been insurance companies set up to put the health of the insureds first and the outcome was devastating to everyone involved.
(I read a long white paper sent to the architects of the ACA, I think through CMS, outlining why the ACA couldn’t mathematically work out and their one line response was something to the sort of “we read your concerns and they aren’t true”, of course without providing any explanation.)
That’s exactly the point- I was trying to start on common ground with something that we hopefully both agree on and move on from there by making incremental changes to see where we start to disagree.
I purposely picked a scenario where even the looniest of the loony leftists liberals would hopefully agree with me. I agree that’s it’s unrealistic which is why I emphasized that it was hypothetical.
Eventually I was going to get to the ACA where my savings were wiped out and I couldn’t afford my mortgage after my health insurance expenses went up in the range of $10,000 per year.
@jackk doesn’t seem to have an issue with this so I wanted to see where along the road we diverge. Unfortunately he starts discussions and leaves as well as stating his opinions without backing them up.Decreasing taxes stimulates the economy as it turns takers into makers and it gives the rich makers more of an incentive to grow their businesses and hire more takers (who will begin paying taxes instread of taking them). Look at how the economy was soaring for the first three years under Former President Trump (I know in the past you’ve claimed that it was a disaster but haven’t provided a single reason) until President Bidens friends released the virus (probably on purpose to weaken the president).
Increasing taxes does the opposite.
“Ask your son a simple question. Remind him of any friends or acquaintances that have special needs.
Does he believe that society should just abandon these people since they are incapable of taking care of themselves or does he believe that he should contribute together with other people in order to enrich their lives?”As I mentioned before- if it was only people with special needs that the goverment was supporting (and those temporarily down on their luck) the entitlements disaster would be a non-issue.
“Then ask him if he feels that it is fair that he should contribute the same amount as bill gates and elon musk.”
You mentioned before that Elon Musk didn’t pay any income tax while according to CNN he paid $11 Billion. Would you care to explain the discrepancy or provide your sources?
“why discourage him?”
Because when well meaning people have tried that in the past the results were catastophic- the companies became insolvent and were liquidated while the providers were out hundreds of thousands of Dollars for services they rendered but didn’t get paid for and the policy holders had to start their massive deductibles all over again in the middle of the year (and then again in January).
“Dr. P; Not sure who or what your were responding to but you make some good points.”
I was responding to your post, your original post didn’t mention Medicare/Medicaid.
I understood what you were saying and yes if the goverment can spend $100 today to avoid spending several thousand dollars 5 or 10 years in the future (depending on your assumed discount rate), it should do so.
But…
I feel that the government should spend money on these people when they’re young to point them in the correct direction- this will enable them to take care of themselves when they get older and save the goverment much more than the initial investment.
I also feel that the goverment should spend $100 now to lock up petty thieves for the night and teach them a lesson before they potentially spend in the millions when the person becomes a murderer.
However there has to be a line drawn somewhere- as to what the goverment will cover for the takers at the expene of the makers.
“He has also described every day scenarios where nobody was willfully negligent but still was caught in the death trap of our capitalistic system of healthcare.”
That wasn’t what my question. Answer my simple question and we can move on to the scenarios @ubiquitin brought up.
“I do not understand how anyone can believe that government is NOT supposed to help the population.”
Again- the goverment IS supposed to help the population, what we disagree on is to what extent.
“I do not understand how anyone can believe that Selfish Capitalism is the Torah view.”
If you can show me where in the Torah it says to pay people not to work so that they should vote for a political party that promotes actions that the Torah calls abonimable and murder than we can discuss that.
“I did read the conversation but you are approaching the conversation exactly backwards.
THe starting point is a question of role of government.”
I guess there could have been different ways to start it depending on what you wanted the outcome to be. Given who the post was meant for I think I started in the correct place- gettting @Jackk to admit that there are times when the govermnent shouldn’t step in (i.e. when Mr. A and his family would suffer the loss of their house and savings due to the shear utter irresponsiblilty of Mr. B).
@Jackk did respond but his response was very vague and didn’t answer the simple “Yes” or “No” question. I asked for clarification but as of now he has yet to respond. Given the outcome I think I started in the correct place.Obesity is also a problem that can morph into major medical and social problems.
By the government forcing every working person to purchase a treadmill for five times the current going price (regardless of whether they already have one, have room for one or if they go to the gym on a daily basis), forcing the treadmill manufacturers to sell them at a loss, requiring the shipping companies to deliver them for less than the cost of shipping and a relatively small government “investment”- the weight loss (from those who use it for its intended purpose and not to walk their dogs while sitting on the couch all day drinking a beer and watching TV) would save many more dollars in “covered” medical expenses.
There are probably others here in the CR who can speak to the real world issues of obese folks who cannot afford the thousands of dollars needed for a treadmill and forego social interactions, have difficulty with good diet. etc.
At a certain point the government needs to take a step back and let work able people stand for themselves. I’m going to stress again that I’m not referring to people who for mental or physical reasons can not take care of themselves as well as those who are down on their luck.
To respond to your earlier post:
“Do you think that the Republicans and Democrats in congress can come together and figure out a plan with the Insurance companies that will make dental coverage affordable?”
No, I don’t think so. As you mentioned earlier it’ll probably cost in the tens of billions of Dollars to come up with something. The Democrats would want it to come as a new tax to the makers while the Republicans would want it to come from the entitlements given to the takers. (By takers I’m referring to people who are able to get a job but choose not to. I’m SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDING those who can not support themselves due a mental or physical handicap as well as those who are temporarily down on their luck.) Besides- the politicians on either side can’t seem to work with the politicians on the other side.
“Does it make sense that Americans should need to travel to Hungary when they need dental care since they are paying out of pocket even with good dental coverage?”
No, it doesn’t make sense. I think you should go ahead and become a dentist and charge the same amount that Hungarian dentists charge- then you’ll see why the dentists here need to charge so much more. Or better yet- why don’t you open an insurance company that has affordable rates for quality dental care and then you’ll see why it’s not feasible.
“Can congress do something to help Americans or is the Insurance lobby too strong ?”
The math just doesn’t work out. Insurance companies make their money by taking premiums from people and assuming their risk. If the risk is known in advance (or the bulk of the risk is known) the premiums are going to rise to the point that it almost equals the cost of the visits. Many expensive dental procedures don’t have to be done immediately (I.e. getting wisdom teeth pulled or getting braces) and the person can push it off until they get dental insurance and then cancel the policy after the services were provided.
Would you be able to simply answer “Yes” or “No” to the question I posed in the hypothetical scenario? You seem to be avoiding it.
I agree that the government is supposed to help the population but who to help, to what extent and at what expense to others is something I strongly disagree with you on.
@ ubiquitin
It’s not a problem- feel free to disagree with me and show your views from a different angle. If you have some good points and make me change my opinion and outlook I’ll go ahead and agree with you and retract my earlier statements.
My question to @Jackk was supposed to be extremely biased towards Mr. A and extremely biased against Mr. B. (That’s why I mentioned that it was hypothetical.) I’m not sure if you’ve read any of our conversations before but our opinions are diametrically opposed. I was hoping to start a conversation on common ground and then change the variables one at a time to see where we actually disagree.
Mr. B doesn’t own how house to have enough equity in there to pay the bills for Mr. A (that’s why I was asking if the government can put a lien on the house owned by Mr. A).
Aside from that- I’m not sure what you’re getting at- my question was if the government can take money from one person to pay the medical bills of another person. (And yes, if it goes one way it should go both ways- but should it go the first way to begin with?)
I’m Bli Nader going to respond within the next day or two- unfortunately I have less free time during vacation than when I’m working.
In the meantime I’m going to pose a question based on a hypothetical situation.
Family A and Family B are neighbors.
Mr. A is an ambitious person, got a higher education, worked hard to climb the corporate ladder, saved up money to purchase a house and sets aside money every month for his kid’s higher education and weddings. Mr. B on the other hand is more laid back, is still at an entry level position, rents the house he lives in, uses his extra money and credit card limits on vacations that he can’t afford and has no savings.
Mr. A takes his health seriously, eats and works out responsibly, has adequate health insurance coverage, doesn’t smoke and only drinks alcohol for religious purposes. Mr. B is extremely overweight, smokes like a chimney, gets overly drunk on a regular basis and has horrible health insurance coverage.
Unfortunately Mr. B has some serious health issues and needs a lung and liver transplant to survive but can’t afford the $300,000 for the surgery.
Does the government have the right to put a $200,000 lien on Mr. A’s house and seize the $100,000 he has in savings in order to save Mr. B?
Why or why not?
Unfortunately I haven’t been called since so I need to recycle old stories.
@Ctrl Alt Del
I’m not trying to be rude- just saying it the way that it is.
Insurance companies are in it for the money and they make money by charging premiums to assume the risk for their policy holders.
Given the nature of dental coverage- the premiums would pretty much be unaffordable for those that need expensive dental work if the coverage was more generous.
Did you see my happy birthday wishes in the other thread?
If not – have a happy belated birthday.
Avi
That picture is so heartbreaking.
He sometimes davened next to us at Rav Pollars Yeshiva on 55th St. He looks so frail compared to the vibrant person he used to be.
May he have an immediate רפואה שלמה.
Someone tried something similar when I was at jury duty. The judge called her up- told her she was dismissed and when she headed to leave with a smirk on her face the judge called her back and told the bailiff to send her to civil court for jury duty.
Mods-
Why isn’t this showing up on the front page?
@Reb Eliezer,
If you are who I think you are I believe it’s your birthday.
Have a happy birthday!
Doc