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As with any huge issue out there, there’s usually way more than just one factor causing the issue and fixing one factor may help but won’t resolve the issue.
Here’s a good one to start with though- How about making Shadchanus into a profession?
Hashem created everyone and created someone meant to be their zivug- if they’re not introduced to each other (or possibly under the wrong circumstances) there’s a good chance they won’t end up marrying.
There are certain characteristics that define a profession (here’s a partial list):
The professional undergoes training,
There’s continuing education,
There’s certification,
There’s ethical standards that need to be followed,
There’s oversight and
There’s a discipline process.Would you trust someone who’s a doctor solely because they “dabble” in healthcare?
Would you trust someone who’s a mechanic solely because he “dabbles” in auto repairs?So why would you trust someone who’s a shadchan solely because they “dabble” in shidduchim?
Furthermore- without oversight and the thought of being banned, fined or face any disciplinary action- what encourages them to act in good faith?
@always_ask_questions and @daas-yochid
I’m not questioning the legalities of Social Security, I’m not a lawyer and don’t have an opinion of the legalities one way or the other.
What I wrote earlier on is that Social Security is designed like a Ponzi Scheme and is destined to fail like all Ponzi Schemes eventually do. (Regardless of whether it’s technically (or legally) a Ponzi Scheme or not.) It may last longer than other Ponzi Schemes do but if early contributors already got payments equal to many times more than they contributed- then there’s going to be a time where the payments coming in aren’t enough to make the payments promised to later contributors. It’s being exacerbated now when people are living longer, having less kids and many of the younger generation are never entering the workforce altogether and therefore not contributing to the fund.
You asked what was unclear- I’m trying to get an answer from you as to why you feel that Social Security isn’t a Ponzi Scheme. Can you pick from one of the choices below? (For context I would choose B.)
A. Social Security doesn’t rely on future contributions to make payments for past contributors,
B. Social Security is legal while Ponzi Schemes are illegal,
C. Both
D. None of the above (please explain)
I respectfully disagree with many of your “facts”. Before discussing them individually- would you mind answering the multiple-choice question I posed to @daas-yochid?
I try to respond to everyone who comments on what I write. To make it easier for me would you be able to explain why Social Security is not a Ponzi Scheme?
If someone is wearing a CVS branded bandage they’re technically not wearing a Band-aid. So, even though it looks like a Band-aid, feels like a Band-aid and works like a Band-aid, it’s still not a Band-aid.
Do you feel the same way about Social Security? Even though it looks like a Ponzi Scheme, functions like a Ponzi Schem and is destined to collapse like a Ponzi Scheme it isn’t a Ponzi Scheme because it’s legal and transparent?
I’m trying to figure out where the disconnect is.
Are you opining that Social Security isn’t legally a Ponzi Scheme or isn’t mathematically a Ponzi Scheme (or it isn’t either)?
Government mandated or not- if the funds coming in are not enough to payout the funds due the entire system will collapse.
The shortfall is projected to be in the trillions of Dollars. Where is the government going to get this money from?
The fact that a US Citizen can renounce their citizenship is enough proof that the US doesn’t own its citizens. There needs to be some sort of cutoff to know when one is no longer a citizen. Would you like taxes to be like gym membership where once one no longer pays they’re no longer members and no longer entitled to the benefits of membership? And yes, it would be “theft” to continue using the gym (or any benefit associated with membership) after membership has been revoked.
I’m a member of כלל ישראל, this is a different type of membership as there’s no way to renounce my membership. B”H when the בית המקדש is rebuilt and בתי דינים are established- I’m going to be under their jurisdiction and there’s nothing I can do about it. In this case I’m owned by the religion.
On the other hand- I have professional memberships- I met the requirements, applied for membership and pay my dues (which includes a fee for a disciplinary process if anyone files a complaint against me). I’m not owned by these organizations but there are benefits to being a member (e.g. I can use their professional designations after my signature). Even if I stop paying membership I’m still bound by their rules until I officially resign and can face their disciplinary process and have my name listed as not being in good standing.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at with socialized healthcare but if given the option to opt out socialized healthcare a 911 operator would first have to place someone on hold to see if they paid the socialized tax.
You asked who mentioned Ponzi scheme?
If A = B and C = B, would you say that C = A?
Now-
Let A = Ponzi Scheme,
Let B = A fund that people contribute money towards and instead of the money being invested it’s used to payout people who contributed money earlier on, and
Let C = Social Security.
Do you agree now that Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme?
If you want to be technical you could say that mathematically it’s a Ponzi Scheme but legally it’s not because (1) a Ponzi Scheme is illegal and Social Security is legal and (2) a Ponzi Scheme isn’t transparent where the money goes but Social Security is transparent for who ever cares to read up about it. But you get the point.
Based on your post I’m having a hard time understanding why Warren Buffet believes that Social Security isn’t a Ponzi Scheme. Would you be able to explain what a Ponzi Scheme is, how Social Security works and contrast the two?
(Isn’t a Ponzi Scheme where people put in money and instead of it being invested it’s used to pay back people who put in money earlier and the people putting in money now hope to get back money at a future date from people who will put in money at a future date?)
I fully agree with you though that people shouldn’t be able to pick and choose which taxes they want to contribute towards.
Imagine the following:
911- 911, what’s your emergency?
Caller- there’s a fire in my house,
911- let me put you on hold while I check if you paid your fire fighting taxes…
Social Security didn’t have to be a Ponzi Scheme but it’s too late- that’s how it was set up and there’s nothing that can be done about it now.
See the case of Ida May Fuller- the first Social Security recipient- she barely paid into Social Security and collected it for over 35 years- receiving close to 1,000 times what she contributed. I highly doubt that I’m even going to get back even close to what I (and my employers) contributed. The funds that she collected were paid into Social Security by the next generation and their checks are being covered by our parents and us.
I spoke with a retirement actuary at length about Social Security and why it was purposely designed as a Ponzi Scheme and not as an annuity- like your typical insurance company would do it.
With a typical 401(K) a person sets aside funds (and at times their employer matches it to some extent) and at retirement they can either live off the lump sum or purchase an annuity and ensure that they don’t outlive their money. Of course the government is extremely on top of the employers issuing matches, the banks holding the 401(K)s and the insurance companies selling the annuities.
The amounts held in the portfolios of some of these banks and insurance companies is staggering.
The designers of Social Security were concerned with the government having access to retirement accounts- worth potentially in the trillions- and no oversight, so they designed Social Security in a way where there isn’t tons of money sitting around but payments come in from the current generation to pay the previous generation, i.e. a massive Ponzi Scheme. While Social Security does have lots of money at the moment- it’s nothing compared to the trillions they’d be sitting on otherwise.
As with any Ponzi Scheme, it’s going to fail sooner or later. From what I understand, the designers of Social Security anticipated that for each retiree there would be 16 people working and making Social Security payments. With people living longer, having less kids and with so many people choosing not to work- the ultimate demise is bound to happen sooner rather than later. But- it was going to happen eventually anyway.
Are you mixing me up with someone else?
Who’s being held up and gunpoint and being forced to pay taxes. I’ve said numerous times in this thread that anyone who feels that the taxes are too high for the benefits of being a US Citizen is allowed to leave and renounce their citizenship.
The US isn’t a communist country and the US doesn’t own its citizens. Unless you’re in jain (and probably not paying taxes anyway) you’re free to leave. I have never written anything contrary to that.
It’s gotta be hard trying to have a conversation with someone and having to wait a week for a response- I apologize for that.
Taxes are an unfortunate part of life. We both seem to agree that taxes in the US are unsustainable for many families. The problem though, is that many families would be better off if taxes were even higher (i.e. the ones not paying any taxes and living off of our taxes). There’s no general consensus on what’s too high and what isn’t.
I don’t think the government should be allowed to levy crippling taxes on anyone, but “crippling” is rather subjective. Who would be the one to decide what’s crippling and what isn’t?
There is a vehicle to lower taxes and make them more affordable- it’s your ability to go out and vote. Not paying taxes is taking matters into your own hands and things could get out of control if people could suddenly decide that taxes are too high and stop paying them.
And yes, I know we agreed to disagree on this but, in my opinion, an individual who cheats on his taxes because he feels they’re too high is stealing.
You seem to be a nice person and kept our differences respectful- thanks for that.
I also never heard of the term “legally lie” before and after. He explained that basically I wasn’t signing that everything was true- I was signing that if something isn’t true, they have the right to sue me. That raised a red flag. Another red flag was that I needed to pay in cash and not get a receipt so that there’s no trail. I wasn’t comfortable with the whole thing.
I think what we don’t agree on boils down to whether or not the government has the right to charge “unfair” taxes and not if someone is allowed to cheat on taxes if they feel that it’s not fair. We probably both agree that there’s enormous amounts of waste in the taxes being collected.
I’m trying very hard to stay out of politics but I will say that, in my opinion, the taxes being charged nowadays are exorbitant and unfair to many families. I will also say though that for some people it’s working and would work better if the government would raise taxes.
I also think we disagree on whether it’s fair or not to tell someone who doesn’t like the tax rates to either vote out the politicians (you probably agree with me on that one) or leave the country and renounce citizenship.
I don’t think it’s possible to save Social Security – at least not in a way that would give everyone 100% of what they should be getting. It’s a shame because I see how my 401(k)s are growing and the amount paid towards Social Security (between me and my employers) is significantly higher than what my employers and I set aside towards retirement.
People are retiring at a younger age nowadays and there aren’t enough people working vs the amount of people getting Social Security. Had the government funneled the funds towards an annuity with an insurance company- I think we’d all be in a better position.
It’s been great talking to you on this topic.
I stand firm that taxes will never ever be fair to everyone and that cheating on your taxes is wrong and stealing. (Even if you justify it by “they’re not fair”.)
If another country invaded yours and started charging an exorbitant tax rate I’d be OK with overthrowing the invading country but I’d still feel that it’s stealing to sit back and enjoy the benefits of the new government and cheat on your taxes.
Like I wrote many times before and I’ll write one last time- if you don’t think the taxes here are fair, you’re free to leave the country and renounce your citizenship.
I don’t think I’m going to convince you otherwise and you’re definitely not going to convince me otherwise.
At this point I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
Best of luck
Taxes are what they are and part of the reason they are what they are is because of tax fraud. (It may be a small amount compared to the waste caused by crooked politicians but it definitely contributes.) You may not be promoting tax cheats it but you sure seem to be justifying them. Like I wrote before, if you feel that politicians are stealing from you, you have the right to vote against them.
There is no way to create a tax system that is fair to everyone. What people are trumpeting as fair share will definitely not be fair to many families. Are you ok with anyone cheating on their taxes when they feel it’s not fair for them? Did the founding fathers write that anyone who feels that taxes aren’t fair for them have the right to cheat on their taxes?
If someone feels that Yeshiva Tuition is too high for them (or they don’t like the way the Yeshiva spends it’s money) and the scholarship given to them by the school isn’t enough- do they have the right to lie about their income on the scholarship application?
(As a side point- I was told by a lawyer many years ago about how I could legally lie to save myself hundreds of Dollars per month. He said that the law in the case is that lying isn’t illegal but it gives them the right to sue me for all ill gotten gains but they’re too lazy to do anything about it. I asked a shaila and was told that irregardless of US Law it’s אסור להלכה as it’s stealing from all stakeholders and I’d have to repay every single one of them.)
I agree with you that raising taxes to an astronomical amount is an abuse of power but I don’t agree with you that something can’t be done “because it’s an abuse of power. I’m not getting into politics but there have been some things done recently that just about everyone agrees were an abuse of power – but they were done.
I’d feel differently if a country considered you their property and didn’t let you leave or won’t let you give up your citizenship but that’s definitely not the case with the US. You’re free to leave and renounce your citizenship.
By the way- I did respond to your question about “ illegal activities” against the British king- I told you that you can fight for your independence.
You, on the other hand, didn’t respond to my question. I’m going to ask it again.
Would you say it’s ok to steal from a grocery store that donates a percentage of purchases to something you abhor?
I’m definitely not happy with the tax rate and where lots of the tax money is going but why are you saying that the government has no right to do that?
Yes, in my opinion it is stealing. They can tax any amount that they want and if you want to be a citizen (or resident) you have to pay that. If you don’t want to pay taxes you’re welcome to leave and give up your citizenship or vote out the current politicians. But until then, if you’re a US Citizen and getting the benefits of citizenship you’re stealing if you cheat on your taxes.
Like I keep writing- the US has benefits for its citizens all over the world. Expecting to get those benefits (or even just being covered by those benefits) while cheating on your taxes is stealing. If you have a problem with the taxes, you have the option to leave and renounce your citizenship or vote out the politicians collecting taxes you don’t agree with to pay for things that you don’t want them to spend money on. (You can also fight for your independence.)
My point though, and I’ll write it again, is that expecting to get the benefits from the US Government while not contributing what they tell you you owe- is stealing.
I agree with you 100% that the government is wasting ridiculous amounts of money but that doesn’t give you the right to steal. Would you say it’s ok to steal from a grocery store that donates a percentage of purchases to something you abhor? Hopefully not. You have the right to either pay for your groceries (knowing where some of the profits are going) or shopping elsewhere. Same with citizenship.
But I disagree with you that someone stealing from the government can’t be judged. (And by the way- there will NEVER be a tax code written that is fair to everyone.)
I wrote earlier that there are benefits to being a US Citizen. The US Government is supposed to look after their citizens all over the world. This is an exposure for the government and it is an expense- regardless of whether you ever use it or not. Expecting the government to be there for you while cheating on your taxes (regardless of if you’re in the country or not) is stealing. I believe stealing isn’t covered by the Halacha of dina demalchusa dina.
(I’d feel differently if the US had, for example, a rule that its citizens can’t drink alcohol no matter where in the world they are and you decided to drink alcohol out the country where the host country has no rule against it.)
I sympathize with those that are struggling to make ends meet but not paying taxes that are due is simply stealing. Signing your name to something that isn’t true is simply lying.
Like I wrote earlier- if someone doesn’t want to pay US taxes they’re more than welcome to renounce their citizenship and give up on all the benefits that come along with being a US Citizen.
It makes no difference if you agree with the policies of the US Government or how they spend the money they collect in taxes. If it bothers you go ahead and vote for someone whose policies are in line with your values.
(I was מקבל on myself this past ראש השנה to not post anything political so I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with your last sentences.)
I’m not a Rov or an accountant so this isn’t halachic or professional advice- just my personal opinion.
Signing your name to something that you know isn’t true, even if there’s no way you’re going to be caught is just wrong, plane and simple- there’s no two ways about it.
Being a citizen of a country entitles one to certain privileges and protections which ultimately costs the country money. While you may feel that paying taxes for the same income to the Israeli Government and then to the US Government is double paying- the respective governments look at us as their share of the costs to look out for their citizens.
Who decides what’s fair and unfair?
If your clients in Israel don’t feel like paying US income taxes, why don’t they just denounce their citizenship?
@g08b couldnt have said it better myself
But to quote the end of the first משנה in יומא
אם כן, אין לדבר סוף״”
Should we make all 18 wheelers have a “co-pilot” like the Staten Island Ferry? Is an incapacitated driver of an out of control big rig less dangerous than an incapacitated ferry captain?
Should we make every vehicle on the road go through a D Check every six years like a 747 needs to? Is hidden corrosion on a car any less dangerous than hidden corrosion on an airliner? (And while we’re at it- if we required the same annual recurring training for drivers that are required of commercial airline pilots- many of the unsafe drivers would be removed.)
Should we make every residential house and apartment have an emergency exit in every room? Is a fire in a bedroom blocking the lone doorway any less dangerous than a fire in a classroom?
The answer is that in life, for the most part, everything is a balance and a price tag needs to be put on everything (unfortunately, this includes people’s lives). Obviously the government feels that it’s not cost efficient for the amount it would cost compared to the amount it would save.
(@ commonsaychel – your post had me cracking up- thanks! Sorry for stealing your sense of humor.)
Raising kids is different for every family and it’s a careful balance based on each family’s unique parameters. I respect your approach but we do things differently.
There’s no limit to what I’d spend to ensure that my kids have the best education and I don’t consider this a luxury that my kids are going to turn into a necessity.
I don’t discuss tuition with my kids for the most part (when they turn 18 and I have no access to their college accounts I need them to hand me the statements so I can pay them). I would also never discuss with my kids that I felt a school wasn’t acting reasonable with pricing (except possibly a college). B”H I never felt that my kids could be getting a better education elsewhere. There were a few times that I felt the schools could’ve handled things differently but at the end of the day- if I discussed it with them and they didn’t agree- it’s their school and I had to respect their decisions.
As far as making new friends is concerned- I wasn’t talking about neighbors who wouldn’t talk to you because you switched your kids out of one school- of course you probably shouldn’t have been friends with them to begin with. I was referring to your kids not being able to easily stay friends with the kids they used to be with in class and on the bus. It can be hard coming into a new school knowing very few kids and having to make new friends when most of the kids already have their groups of friends.
@eddie
I agree with your earlier post but to a very limited degree. There is an initial sunk cost in opening a school and every additional student taken in adds a small variable expense. But- when the school needs to add a parallel class, all of the sudden you need an additional classroom and teachers- the cost is going to jump significantly. If a school has 250 students from Kindergarten to 8th grade that’s about 25 kids give or take per grade and one class per grade. Once the number is hovering around 1,000 the school needs 3 to 4 classes per grade and a much larger building than the schools you dealt with. This all costs lots of more money than just the differential of adding one more student a few hundred times.
I’m not sure why you’re having a hard time believing that a far right school, where the Rabbeim and teachers are paid far less than their counterparts in public schools, and without the same bloated budgets as public schools, can educate kids for a fraction of what public schools do. The general cost in the US per public school kid is hovering around $20,000.
The figures I got were from the CPA that audited the schools books on behalf of the bank that they applied for a loan from. He claimed that full tuition covers each kid plus an extra percentage for those who don’t pay full tuition. There’s still a shortfall that’s closed with fundraising.
If everyone paid full tuition (which I know is never going to happen) there would be no need for the extra percentage or fundraising. That scholarship that you’re getting is taking away from those paying that extra percentage. Furthermore- if everyone paid full tuition and the school did fundraising as well- that would lower the cost of full tuition for everyone and leave more money in the pockets of those paying full tuition.
I’m not a CPA but I’m under the impression that the extra percentage isn’t tax-deductible as it’s listed as tuition. If the school listed tuition and a mandatory donation- that donation would be considered tax-deductible. Schools hesitate to do that as they feel that parents may put up a fight.
(One school had a mandatory amount that each family had to fundraise for the school. As we never complied it was added to our next year’s tuition balance and we’d get a tax-deductible receipt for that amount.)
Why don’t they have the option of executing terrorists who aren’t in uniform? They’re not protected under the Geneva Convention.
@eddie
My kids go to far right schools and there’s no way that it costs $40,000 per kid and they’re fundraising the difference. At around 1,000 students Bli Ayin Hora, they’re not raising over $30,000,000 every year. I’m not affiliated with other schools and don’t know what goes on there.
(As a side point- the local public schools receive about $20,000 annually per kid. The Frum schools don’t have the same bloated budgets as public schools, they don’t have unionized teachers and they don’t have the same benefits that public school teachers have. I’d expect the cost per kid to be much less than in public schools.)
My kids are gifts from Hashem and my most treasured assets, which is why I take pride in tuition being my first and highest priority. (In 2024 we probably paid more than four times the amount on tuition than we did on our mortgage.)
Switching a kid to another school can be hard as they’ll be leaving their friends and coming into a new school where the kids already have their groups of friends. They may be behind (or ahead) of the curriculum in the new school- it’s not always easy to catch up (or spending a year to learn something for the second time). Is the new school going to give your kids the attention they deserve if they know that you’re only sending them there to prove a point to another school and then you’ll switch them back or to somewhere else?
We choose schools based on where our kids are going to succeed the most- not to show the schools that we have other options. We choose schools where we trust that the faculty will do what is in the best interest of the child, regardless of whether it’s in their own best interest.
I agree that you can’t capture everything- if I had enough time I’d love to build a flexible tuition scholarship model where new scenarios can easily be added. While it may not contain every possible scenario- it will contain all the scenarios presented to the committee once all the applications are filled out and the model has been updated.
My point though is that even if the model contained every possible scenario- there’s a 0% chance that everyone will find it fair.
Let’s head back to the example of the mother who willfully didn’t work and got assessed $50,000 of income for the benefits that he got. Let’s say she could be earning $100,000 if she took the job. I could see another mother saying it’s not fair that she had to leave her kids all day and work and on top of that get charged additional tuition than if she stayed home all day with her kids like the other person.
(By the way- I do agree with you that handouts/ government programs should be considered income.)
That calculation doesn’t pass the smell test.
Take the entire school budget for the fiscal year and divide it by the number of kids in the school (possibly prorate it by grade as for example preschool is less expensive than older grades). Once an expense is determined at the individual level and a surcharge above that is added for full tuition- a family should be able to ask for a tax deduction for the surcharge(s).
Asking for more than that is just not honest. (I’m not sure what context you saw that in though.)
The school that I spoke with the auditor about would project their annual budget and add a certain percentage to the individual tuition responsibilities for full tuition. Whatever shortfalls they were left with was closed with fundraising.
I’m not under the impression that have a certain amount to give out in scholarships and they divide discretionally.
You seem concerned about the intrusion of the tuition committee into peoples personal lives. I’m not trying to belittle that but point out how much worse it is when vicious Shadchanim find out that someone exists (may Hashem protect us all from them and their wicked tactics).
A family only needs to deal with a tuition committee (and again, I understand that it may be very uncomfortable) once they decide that they want to send their kids there and ask for a scholarship application. If they feel that the questions are too personal they’re welcome to not fill it out and apply elsewhere.
Once an evil shadchan gets ahold of your name there’s nothing you can do. Even after you tell them that you’re not interested in working with them and give them no permission to make calls on your behalf (the polite ones will tell you that it’s too bad because that’s not how the system works while the rude ones won’t even acknowledge your concerns) they’re going to call everyone you know and ask the most personal questions (and trust me, it’s not limited to finances) under the ruse that לשון הרע doesn’t apply to shadchanim.
I can’t tell from your post if you’re offended. If you are- it wasn’t my intent and I apologize.
If it was just inflows and outflows that would be a black and white calculation but it’s much more complicated than that and there’s lots of gray areas in between- and again, there’s going to be lots of strong points on both sides. It would also give families the opportunity to play the system if they knew the weight that each item carries.
For example-
I once overheard a (stay at home) mother in the park saying that she got a job offer but won’t be accepting it since after all the handouts outs that she’s going to lose out on and the extra tuition she’s going to pay- she’s going to come home with only $2 per hour. Do you think that’s fair to everyone else who’s working hard and would love to stay home and spend more time with their kids? Would it be fair to add an extra $50,000 income to the scholarship calculation for any able bodied person who chooses not to work?
How about the people that got their houses for free? Is it fair that those working hard to pay their mortgage and full tuition should be subsidizing the tuition of those who have no mortgage and could take out a heloc? I also understand why someone would have concerns about having a lien on their home. I see both sides.
There was a school where parents found out that they gave discounts to families from a neighboring community (regardless of whether they needed it or not, full tuition was less). Their response was that “you have no choice where to send your kids- they can decide between us and a different neighboring community so we need to compete for them”. They weren’t adding more classes so the marginal cost per kid was small but it brought in lots of money. Again, I can see both sides.
Take two similar people- one who has no problem getting his hands dirty and maintaining his house and car while the other one wouldn’t dare climb under a car. Car and house maintenance is a legitimate expense for the latter one while the former one may not agree. This is another gray area. How would you handle that if you were on the committee?
The tax deductible receipt one had me scratching my head as well- I can’t imagine that there’s that many families that pay above the amount of what it costs to educate their kids and would make a stink about the extra amount. The tax savings wouldn’t be insignificant and the “donation” amount could possibly be doubled if their employers have matching gift programs. Luckily I’m not part of a scholarship committee.
I’m all for transparency but there are some consequences. Do you actually want someone with a gripe to go through the books with a magnifying glass and complain about every penny that they don’t agree with?
At work we call it the Perry Mason Rule (and no, I’m not old enough to remember it), if we don’t have to share or disclose something- we don’t. Trust me- there are many times that my life would be easier if I could just share my entire financial model with the auditors but the higher ups won’t let. They don’t want those auditors, who are looking for problems, to have access to the full model. I need to cut out exactly what they’re looking for and give it to them.
When my son’s school applied for a loan to renovate / expand their building the bank hired an auditor to go through their books and he spilled the beans to me. (Okay- some auditors are cool.) Trust me- there’s nothing explosive in there but someone looking for some excitement could get lots of parents all riled up.
@Chaim87-
I haven’t come across a way to collect tuition and give out scholarships that is fair to everyone. I’ve come across many opinions that say the only fair way to do it is this or that but once you look at it from the other direction it’s no longer fair.
Tuition is just one of those things that’s in a category by itself with nothing even remotely comparable.
What other expenses does one have in life that they can’t skimp on? You want to save money- buy a smaller house, eat out less, spend less on vacations, get a few more years out of your car… But when it comes to tuition- there’s no saving money- if you have the money you need to pay it.
Additionally, where else can you find a service where people pay based on what they can afford and everyone gets the same service?
A guy I used to sit next to at work subscribed to every WhatsApp tuition rant he could get himself onto and some of the discussions really had two sides and I got to see both of them and I literally could’ve taken either one.
One posters was willing to pay full tuition (which included the full amount for his kid plus a “secret” percentage above that) but he wanted a tax-deductible receipt for everything above what it cost to educate his kid. The school refused as they were concerned that those paying full tuition would give them a hard time about paying that extra percentage.
What about the tuition board that says that a person shouldn’t put away towards their 401(K) while getting a discount? Is it fair that he should lose out on the employer’s match? The school says that self employed parents don’t get a 401(K) match. Then there’s the government employee who gets a pension without having to set aside for a 401(K). Should he have to use part of his pension to pay back the school for the scholarships he got at the expense of those who couldn’t save for retirement?
There’s also the guy demanding that his kids get preferential treatment (I.e. leading roles in a school play, first choice at yearbook jobs…) since they pay full tuition while others were saying that their kids shouldn’t lose out because they can’t afford full tuition. (Would they go to a car dealership and claim that it’s not fair for their kid to drive a Yugo (yes, I remember those) instead of a Cadillac like their friends since they can’t afford it?) Is it fair that the teacher gives these out based on whose mother is a crank and has all the faculty phone numbers in her speed dial? (As a side story- someone asked a mother at a school play how her kids always have leading roles her response was “easy, the squeaky wheel gets the most grease”.)
In short- there may be a way to do all this fairly I just haven’t seen anything remotely close yet. I also don’t anticipate anything changing in the future.
(Also- can you explain what “parsonage” is (or what context you’re using it in)? I honestly thought it’s when a school (or other non-profit) lets their clergy live in a house on their property for free. I don’t see how this can be used to pay tuition.)
Don’t wait around for squeak- he’s not planning on joining the chess game this year.
Is NASI still around and if so, in what capacity? It’s been some time since @AZ posted anything here and I haven’t seen any of their ads in a publication recently.
Have there been any reliable studies shwoing that their efforts have worked to narrow the age gap between spouses? If indeed Litvish girls are getting married younger- are they marrying men closer to their age?
I discussed with @AZ 10+ years ago (and I still believe) that the “age gap” is a by product of more serious root causes that need to be resolved but aren’t being discussed. (He didn’t agree with me.)
I’m not siding with NASI on anything but hopefully you’ll agree that changes in the dynamics of the Litvish Community over the last half century brought in challenges that weren’t seen in the 32 1/2 centuries before that.
Thanks for your response.
At this point though, I don’t have much to add. When the OP posted the question I assumed that the thread would take the direction of those who it worked for giving some reasons as to why it worked for them and those who it didn’t work for would give some reasons as to why it didn’t work for them.
The OP would then have been able to get a better understanding of whether it would work for him/ her or not.
I voted for President Trump (three times) and I was equally horrified at the two-state solution he proposed.
Only after the Palestinians rejected the deal did I realize the brilliance of his proposal.
President Trump, with his sky high IQ, proposed a deal that was so biased against Israel and biased towards the Palestinians knowing full well that even so, the Palestinians would reject it. This showed any sane person in the world who the real enemy of peace is.
From the perceived tone of your post you seem to be offended at what I wrote. I assure you that it was definitely not my intention to offend you or anyone else. (Note that I made sure to include that it is a respectable profession.)
I was sharing (with the original poster) my personal experience as to why it wouldn’t have been the best choice for me. Anyone reading that can decide if it’s applicable to them or not.
I’m going to address your response now.
1. The state that I was in at the time had either already changed the requirements to 150 credits or it was going to go into effect in the not so distant future. My friends who took the exams a few years later needed 150 credits. (Although the vast majority were Yeshiva credits which were a non-issue.)
2. When I left Kollel and got my first corporate job (a fresh college graduate with 2 actuarial exams) the going salary for an accountant with no experience who had just passed the CPA was between 50% and 60% of what I was getting. That extra amount was crucial at the time as I already had some kids and another one on the way.
3. True- the salary in any position will plateau at a certain point- unless someone is willing to take some extra risks and put it lots of extra effort, something I’m not willing to do. My CPA friends (except for the ones who became partners/CFOs…) seemed to have plateaued about ten years in.
In my role I’ve been able to steadily move up by working on more complex products and projects (within the same department) and without taking risks or putting in significantly extra amounts of time. As of last year I definitely hadn’t plateaued and if I’m at my plateau now- well it’s different being here after 20 years in than after ten. (My second kid just graduated college and I just paid the last tuition statement- think about what kind of annual pre tax raise that feels like.)
4. When I was in college there was little to no chance that I would have settled in the state I was attending Yeshiva and college. Had I studied for and passed the CPA exams in that state I definitely wouldn’t have had enough experience for it to have been easily transferable after I got married, settled in NY and was looking for my first corporate position.
Even though I’m mostly retired from the Coffee Room I try to respond to all comments meant for me. If you reply please address it to me (by putting the “@“ symbol followed by my name at the beginning of the post) – it’ll make it easier for me to find.
When I was growing up I thought I was going to be a CPA. Although it is a respectable profession, when I started college my father convinced me out of it for the following reasons:
1. To sit for the exam you need 150 credits (not necessarily a masters per se but basically the equivalent),
2. After passing the CPA exam you still need a certain amount of experience to officially become a CPA,
3. The salary plateaus at a certain point unless you’re ambitious and put in lots of extra effort to really get ahead,
4. Ask around if you need different certifications for different states- it would be a shame to get certified in NY and then need to get additional certifications if you move to NJ.
5. This may not apply to you but he felt that I didn’t have enough personality to become a CPA.
This was all about 30 years ago and things may have changed since then (although I never looked back and regretted my decision).
Before making a decision though, check online what the going salary is for your location is and read the article in Mishapacha Magazine (Issue 1030) regarding the tuition crisis. It would be a shame to put in so much effort only to ask for scholarships, live paycheck to paycheck and not able to afford anything else.
Whatever you decide I wish you lots of הצלחה.
If you keep lying you going to be perpetually called a liar. 🤥
You’re willing to have an honest conversation? No you’re not, you’re lying 🤥 again!
Before I categorized you as a liar I gave you a few chances to correct yourself. I pointed out instances where you’ve lied and purposely misquoted me (in a fruitless attempt to discredit me) but you never explained or corrected yourself. I even linked the original thread as you supposedly couldn’t find it even though I told you the name and approximate date and you still haven’t responded to those accusations.
If someone were to ask me who I’m voting for the simple answer I will give is that I’m voting for President Trump. If they get into more detailed questions I will explain that it’s more that I’m voting against the Democrats and all that they stand for. I believe that I’ve always been clear on that.
Anyway- this discussion is reminiscent of the other one where I gave up on responding to you so unless you own up to your lies and do תשובה I’m done responding to your posts.
As some parting words of advice- if you can only stand up for your political party by lying and trying to discredit someone who points out your lies- maybe it’s time to rethink your political views.
If you can’t get away with lying in this world you’re definitely not going to get away with it in the next world.
Sadly I don’t think it’s going to happen. I invited squeak to come back but he’s not considering it.
I also suspected that it was an overreaction and once she starts doing press conferences and people are reminded of who she is, how she talks, how she laughs and how much damage she and Biden did to the country- the 401(k)s will shoot to even higher levels.
In the meantime I think השם is sending us a message not to be too comfortable and we need to continue to daven.
@ Little Froggie
I only know a fraction of what went on in the background but it was enough for me to decide to leave.
When I originally signed up for an account here I used an old email account that my wife used before we got married (I was afraid of spam) so I wasn’t too affected.
As I’ve mentioned before, no poster needs to ask me מחילה for anything. I understand that some posters may not agree with my Pro- Torah opinions and argue in a disrespectful way but by posting in a public forum I’m opening myself up to that and I forgive everyone retroactively.
@ ☕️coffee addict
I’m years away from retirement (and I love my job so much that I hope I never retire) but I do check my 401(k) on a regular basis. Not that I’m concerned with how much is in there but when it sky rocketed (before Biden was forced out of the running) I took it as a good sign that investors were betting on President Trump winning and fixing the economy. Unfortunately after Biden was forced out my 401(k) took a huge hit- not that I’m concerned about the amount that I lossed- I’m concerned that the investors aren’t so confident that President Trump will win and fix the economy. (I trust the direction of my 401(k) more than any polls out there.)
It brings up such good memories doesn’t it. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like those posters (or topics) will ever be back.
There you go again- lying and purposely misrepresenting what I said to discredit me. I’ve stated a number of times that I’m not voting for Donald Trump per se, rather I’m voting against the Democratic Party and all they stand for. Pointing out the hypocrisy of you and the other leftists, libs and laszlos on this site (by showing that Biden’s actions are worse than President Trump) in no way defends President Trump’s actions.
I’m relying entirely on something? I specifically wrote “Let’s assume”. Why are you purposely ignoring that? When did I ever say that Bill is more reliable than anyone else? I proposed a realistic scenario to try to get you to look at it from a different angle. Why do you have a hard time believing that something that Biden said isn’t true? I also made sure to end off the topic that I’m “skeptical”, not that I know for sure one way or the other. I also made sure to mention that that the NY Post article shouldn’t be taken as 100% factual either. Your purposely ignoring that speaks volumes about your credibility.
It contradicts with everything everyone else said on the subject? Did everyone else get their information from the same unreliable person (i.e. Joe Biden)? Why does it make it more believable when millions of people repeat something they heard from a notorious liar? He lied about how many grandkids he had (something the entire world knew he was lying about) to cover up his son’s affair, why do you find it so hard to believe that he would lie to cover up his own affair?
Where are you getting from that President Trump had documents scattered all around? I thought they were locked in a vault? There’s no comparison to President Trump having lots of boxes secured in a vault on a secure property to Hillary having secret information on a server that may have been hacked. And she purposely destroyed the evidence so no one will know.
Unless you start being honest, I’m most probably done communicating with you again.
You claim to be a glorified computer programmer so I’m not sure why you’re having such a hard time finding the thread when I told you the name (politicizing tragedies) and approximate date (mid 2022) but I looked it up for you. It’s here: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/politizing-tradegies
August 7th 1974 – 50 years ago today.
At the top of the world-
Philippe Petit strung a cable from one of the Twin Towers to the other and walked back and forth 8 times over 45 minutes before surrendering to the Port Authority Police. He was arrested and charged with trespassing although the charges were dropped. He was 24 at the time and had been planning this since 1968.Meanwhile at the bottom of the world-
The Glomar Explorer, a “drilling ship” operated by the CIA, had lowered a grappler to the bottom of the Pacific Ocean and was slowly raising Russian Nuclear Submarine, K-129, that had sank a number of years earlier. The CIA wanted to check out the nuclear weapons as well cryptographic equipment and code books. The submarine broke in two on the way up and it’s unclear what the CIA was able to recover. Planning for this mission began in 1968 as well.It’s not me that changed it’s the Coffee Room and Society as a whole that changed.
When I created an account here the Coffee Room didn’t even exist- and when it was created there wasn’t even a link to it on the homepage- I used to scroll down to latest “Mailbag” post and navigate from there. Do you also have fond memories of the early days?
In its infancy the Coffee Room was a great place to safely shmooze with Frum people with lots of entertaining and thought provoking topics and barely any politics (which I mostly ignored). After the breach (והמבין יבין) I no longer felt safe and left (except for an annual April Fools visit).
Unfortunately it looks like most of the fun topics and people from back then are gone, replaced with politically based topics and ferocious anti- Torah posters who feel that their beliefs need to be shared. I feel that there needs to be someone to stand up for השם and the תורה in a place that’s called “The Yeshiva World”.
Trust me, it’s not in my nature to write like this and I wish someone else would step up and do the dirty work.
There seems to be too many simple minded people here who can ח״ו be swayed by the ideology of some of the vicious leftists, libs and laszlos who post their anti- Torah garbage and someone needs to point it out.
You’re good with following patterns- I’m hoping that you and everyone else will take note that I tried being diplomatic with everyone here (I’m not perfect) until the other person began acting in an uncivil manner.
@ ☕️coffee addict
No, it wouldn’t. But the size of my 401(k) wouldn’t either matter yet I’m not about to drain it.
The bottom line is we have to hope that משיח comes today but be prepared in case he doesn’t.
I have yet to see a leftist, lib, laszlo justify their voting Democrat on the hopes that the world will be destroyed sooner and משיח will be here sooner.
In real life I try to be the nicest person as I’m very מקפיד on בן אדם לחברו but I’m more concerned with בן אדם למקום hence why you may think that I’m aggressive when it comes to defending השם (on a website geared to Frum people no less). Luckily I barely have to deal with people claiming to be Frum but with leftist views. On the rare occasion I pretend to be clueless while engaging the offender in what they think is small talk until they come to the realization that their views are contradictory. Some admit that they never looked at it from the other side while some just dig themselves deeper and deeper.
It’s funny that you mention Shidduchum as I’m a survivor of Shadchan abuse and tried everything that I could think of to get them to leave me alone. Unfortunately telling them off, hanging up on them and just not answering the phone didn’t work as they’d send my friends after me. Coming from a family of חסד my mother invited over her friends who had daughters in shidduchim but couldn’t get the shadchanim to answer the phone or return their call. (This was before the days of cellphones but people were starting to get Caller ID.) It was hilarious how they’d pick up on the first ring when they saw the number on the Caller ID- and then come up with a lame excuse why they didn’t have time and promise to call back but never did.
Anyway- back to the topic. Let’s assume that in 1972 Joe and his late wife were at the Stone Balloon and Joe saw Jill, sniffed her hair and decided that he liked the way it smells. He introduces himself as a Senator and the ever so power hungry Jill thinks this may be her opportunity to eventually become the wife of a Senator and the two start an affair. Not too far fetched yet.
Eventually Jill’s ex learns of the affair, the marriage breaks down and Joe finds himself a widower. If he’s still trying to build his political career and she’s vying for more power do you really think they’re going to be honest with the Wilmington Morning News as to how they met or concoct a more innocent story?
Do you honestly think that Jill’s ex would want it publicized that his wife ran off with a hair sniffing perverted senator? Do you think that he’d have the same kind of press time that she did? Do you think that maybe he was afraid of Joe and his brother after they weaponized the DOJ against him?
Hopefully by now you understand why I’m a bit skeptical about your sources. (Not that the NY Post article should be taken as 100% factual either.)
I still don’t agree with you that President Trump is a bigger liar and cheater than Biden. If presidents were chosen by their moral behavior we could discuss that. Given the crisis going on in the country and entire world, presidents should be chosen by policy and reputation above anything else.
Which president had no wars starting under their command? Which president brought down the price of gas? Which president caused inflation to sky rocket? Which president opened the borders to illegal immigrants? Which president is compromised by China? And the list goes on and on.
Now it’s sickening that people claiming to be Frum can disregard all that, while over 100 of our brothers and sisters are still being held hostage, and claim that they can’t vote for President Trump because he’s immoral but would have voted for Biden despite his immoral behavior.
Claiming that President Trump is משיח is pushing it a little too far but the recent events are going to make it pretty hard for anyone to justify to השם in the next world why they voted Democrat.
I understand if you don’t have an instant recall to every thread you commented in so that’s why I pointed you to the politicizing tragedies thread (from mid 2022). In that thread you accused me of quoting the NRA (an association that I abhor) near- verbatim in an effort to discredit me. I gave you numerous instances to show me the quote or retract what you wrote. When you refused to I felt that you lost your חזרת כשרות and that was one of the reasons why I stopped responding to your posts.
@ Reb Eliezer
Before finding faults in others look at yourself.
You consider yourself intelligent yet you still vote Democrat. Obviously just because someone is smart (or thinks they’re smart) doesn’t mean that they never do the wrong thing.
If you’re that smart why don’t you see that the consequences of voting Democrat are more wars, higher gas prices, higher food prices, unsecured borders, increased fentanyl deaths, rampant immorality, increased antisemitism, funding for our adversaries…?