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Not sure why the link didn’t work- here it is again:
In case this doesn’t either work, it’s Post # 1067979 on Page # 7.
I was just thinking about this riddle on the 17th anniversary of its posting.
Thereās actually a Wikipedia page about it- look for āThe monkey and the coconutsā.
I miss those days.
How about posting immediately for those that have already earned the trust of the moderators?
May 26th 2005
I met squeak for the first time (although it would be another 11 years before I realized that he was squeak).
Some victims of the shidduch crisis may be offended that a few posters are making a mockery of the situation.
If you honestly feel that you have an idea that can help- please post it and hopefully itāll generate a productive conversation.
If you feel the need to make an offensive joke- please take it to a different thread.
(Iām not speaking for myself- Iām speaking on behalf of others.)
On the first day of Sukkos you can only be yotze if it belongs to you which is why it wonāt help to lend it to someone. You can give it to an adult as a gift and theyāll give it back when theyāre done but a child can not give it back.
Where does it say that if you lend something to a child it becomes theirs?
Even the most naive person knows that the probability of a Shadchan causing someone a loss is greater than zero. Accordingly a Shadchan should never be allowed to give out a personās name without their permission.
I actually disagree with you on the part about a non-professional being responsible for damage caused when they had permission to work on something. (Assuming that the person getting damaged was aware that the damager wasnāt a professional- itās a risk that they took and lost out.)
There are no Shadchanim that have immunity and they shouldnāt need it either. If theyāre malicious then theyād forfeit any immunity typically provided to professionals. If theyāre sincere and forthcoming then the singles accept all risks upon themselves when taking their advice or suggestions.
Iām not sure if you want to go down that road. If theyāre spending so much time calling references why donāt they just call up the person in question and ask for permission to act as an agent on their behalf? (I think we both know the answer to that.)
Are Shadchanim really allowed to go ahead and do what they think is beneficial to someone (without permission) when practically speaking thereās a much higher chances of causing them harm?
Also, if you act one someoneās behalf without their permission and cause them a loss- are you responsible for making them whole again?
I wrote what you quoted above in reference to a Shadchanim who get names and add them to their list without the victims permission. If someone approaches a Shadchan, asks them to put them on their list and agrees (in writing) to allow the Shadchan to do research then I fully agree that the Shadchan can do any research that they want.
Similarly, if a Shadchan redts a shidduch (with the express written permission of all involved) then thereās no limit on the amount of research the other party is allowed to do.
(Obviously whatever information is obtained can not be divulged to other Shadchanim.)
I feel strongly that if a Shadchan wants to add someoneās name to their list then they needs to get their permission. They should also get in writing if the Shadchan is allowed to give out their names to a potential match without first running it by them.
Do you agree with this?
I try to respond to every post directed towards me but recently Iāve become suspicious about you. After rereading many of your recent posts (on this thread and others) Iāve been noticing a concerning trend. I sincerely hope that Iām wrong but Iām going to err on the side of caution and stop responding to you.
Out of courtesy though, I will respond to your most recent post.
Am I suggesting that the market would support such a thing?
No, Iām not suggesting that the market would support it and I donāt believe I ever wrote that. What I wrote, and still feel strongly about, is that the market NEEDS it. If not for anything else but to protect the victims of Shadchan abuse.
Iām privileged to be a member of ××× ×ש×Ø××, a nation that takes pride in the strict rules about talking about others. Yet for some reason that all goes out the window when someone turns a magical age and a cruel shadchan gets ahold of their name. In the name of āshidduchimā theyāre all of the sudden allowed to call anyone and everyone and ask the most detailed and private questions about their personal lives (even when the target specifically tells them to remove their name and they have zero permission to discuss them). There needs to be some sort of protection for these victims.
āOther than your posts on the CR, I havenāt seen or heard of any demand for certification of shadchanim, so I donāt agree that thereās much of a market for it.ā
The entire shidduch system is in shambles, even for the ones that it happens to work for. Itās a combination of many failures and addressing (or even fixing) just one of them wonāt resolve the issue but may be a start. If for some reason you think that Shadchanim shouldnāt be brought under control- try explaining that instead of just writing that you havenāt seen or heard of it anywhere else so thereās no market for it.
Are you insinuating that we continue pushing agendas that have been pushed for over a decade (with practically zero positive results) since youāve seen and heard lots of demand for it?
If you had a flat tire whatās to stop you from calling a friend or relative to help you change the tire? Nothing. Could a āmechanicā earn his livelihood by going around all day looking for friends and relatives with flat tires and help them out? Best of luck to him.
Does that mean that we donāt need professional mechanics anymore? Would you suggest that mechanics donāt get certified since then they need to be honest and knowledgeable?
That obvious answer is that for simple things you donāt need someone whoās experienced and qualified but when something gets complicated you do need them. And when someone has a serious issue with their car theyād like to see that the mechanic is ASE certified and has insurance.
Similarly by shidduchim. If a friend or relative redts a shidduch and everything works out then good for them. Even if theyāre meant for each other there may be issues that come up that an experienced professional would be better at handling.
Furthermore, once a āshadchanā runs out of friends and family, they need to get more clients from somewhere.
If there was a system in place that would certify (or provide credentials or whatever) to shadchanim- when some quack calls a yeshiva and asks for their shidduch list (how they have a right to give that out without permission is a different matter) the yeshiva could first make sure that theyāre certified/ credentialed before giving it out.
If thereās someone from out of town that doesnāt have friends or family that are able to help her find a shidduch and they travel to NY or Lakewood to meet shadchanim, are they going to go to the certified ones or to an uncertified one who justifies her uncertification by not wanting to be disciplined for lying or giving out private information?
At times one shadchan may feel the need to discuss a particular shidduch with a different shadchan (obviously with the express written permission from both sides). Would you feel comfortable allowing a shadchan that earned your trust to discuss your deepest personal information with someone who didnāt go through the training because theyāre afraid of being part of the discipline process? I hope not!
The barrier to entry would work the same way it does for any profession.
To make it into a profession there would have to be:
Some sort of education requirements,
Some experience and guidance (I.e. working under a professional for a year or two),
An examination showing proficiency,
A list of rules that members must follow or face disciplinary actions,
A discipline process for those that do break the rules,
Continuing education requirements to make sure that members stay up to date,
And an oversight board to ensure that everything is being followed and victims have a place to file grievances.(This list is by far not all inclusive.)
Thereās nothing that stops friends and family from suggesting shidduchim just like thereās nothing stopping you from getting friends or family to fix your car when it breaks down. Youāre taking a risk though as you may void the warranty if a non-certified mechanic works on your car.
Iām finding it hard to have a discussion with you but Iām going to respond to some of your concerns (at least for now).
Post #2370330
āAnd I still say that reducing the number of shadchanim isnāt going to help.ā
What I see happening in the long term is that if the incompetent shadchanim are somehow removed and more competent shadchanim are brought in (once the negative stigma of being a shadchan is removed)- then the number of shidduchim being made will go up. Professional shadchanim wonāt have to compete with the riff raff and singles can go out on meaningful dates (I.e. not ones that theyāre pressured into). Theyāll also have more time to follow up on suggestions from friends and family.
Best of all- reducing the number of shadchanim will reduce the amount of collateral damage. (Iām sure you agree with that!)
ā Also I would imagine that plenty of shadchanim who you may think are incompetent have made lots of shidduchim.ā
Youāre correct- but again you need to take collateral damage into account as well as the lack of precision. And no, the end doesnāt justify the means.
Take the following example:
Letās say snipers in combat would be issued a shotgun with buckshot. Would you be against arming them with a sniper rifle using the argument that at times they do make the kill (albeit only a small number of times)?
You need to take into account that having a more accurate shot will brings more successes and reduce the amount of collateral damage.
I heard of “sawyouatsinai” but I don’t know much about it, I never heard of “imetyouatsinai” so I can’t comment on either one.
There are some professions that need barriers to entry and some that don’t. Imagine if there were no barriers to become a commercial airline pilot or surgeon- it’s not the same as delivering for Amazon.
With the amount of damage being caused by Shadchanim and the serious state of disrepair of the entire shidduch scene it’s way past the point that there needs to be some serious barriers to entry. If flooding the market with inexperienced Shadchanim would help then maybe there’s something to discuss. Until then- they need to be brought under control (i.e. creating a barrier to entry and creating a discipline process to fine, suspend or ban the ones who violate basic decency).
I’ve mentioned in the past that when I was working in the ACA, I was able to run a query to see what illnesses policyholders suffered from, what medications they were on and when they last filled their medications. If I found someone that hadn’t refilled his medication in three months and contacted his Rov, neighbors and family members to inquire about their financial situation and persuade them to start taking their medications again I would have been canned on the spot and lost my professional credentials. Yet when a Shadchan pulls a stunt like that they’re celebrated as a hero. Their blatant disregard for privacy and strong-arm tactics need to stop but with no barriers to entry there’s no incentive to act appropriately.
As far as the loading resumes is concerned- like I mentioned earlier, as long as everyone who has their resume submitted is a willing participant I can’t imagine why anyone would have an issue with it. (If Shadchanim have an issue it means that you’re onto something good and I wish you the best of luck.) Advertising and getting lots of people on board may be an issue but like every other idea posted in the numerous threads- nothing seems to be getting widespread traction and acceptance by the population at large.
If I meant something else? I’m not the one who used that word. You need to answer what you meant or rephrase the question using words that I wrote.
You still havenāt shown me where I ever mentioned anything about stam people who dabble in shidduchim. Would you like to try again (or rephrase your original question)?
If youāre only going to quote something that I posted that doesnāt contain the word āstamā then donāt waste your time because Iām not going to reply.
Iām happy to fully respond to your post but to make sure weāre on the same page can you please point me to where I ever mentioned anything about stam people who dabble in shidduchim?
I donāt think your idea will have a meaningful impact but as long as all resumes are loaded in the computer by the individual themself (or with explicit written permission from the individual) then I canāt see why anyone would have an issue.
Youād also have to get some geniuses to figure out how the system will be exploited and mitigate those gaps.
While youāre at it- you may want to add a feature that lets you know if the type of person that youāre looking for is also looking for you. (Just a thought.)
I never heard of imetyouatsinai so I canāt comment. Sorry
Would you be able to comment on whatās wrong with creating a barrier to new entrants?
What’s wrong with creating a barrier to new entrants? If it removes all the shadchanim who shouldn’t be there to begin with and prevents new ones who don’t belong there from coming in- that’ll be a win for everyone. The few who belong there won’t be ashamed to refer to themselves as “shadchanim” (and won’t have to deal with the riff raff), those who are forced out can pasture elsewhere and do something productive with their lives, new entrants who didn’t want to be part of the riff raff could get certified and help those who can use their help and finally- the singles who need them the most would know where to turn.
I love your idea of a place where victims of shadchanim could leave their negative comments. After hearing countless times “stop being a chenyukkel, you need to tell me why you said ‘no’, there’s no Issur of Lashon Hora by shadchanim”- it would be nice to give them a taste of their own medicine.
I can’t see the shidduch process being automated. Finding one’s bashert is much more complicated than purchasing a plane ticket, especially since a good part of the time the person themself doesn’t fully understand or know what they’re looking for. That’s why we could use “professional” shadchanim, those who were able to join the profession by getting by the barrier and are able to live up to a strict code of ethics.
Iām not complaining š, Iām just explaining how Social Security works (or was supposed to work) for those who didnāt know. And Iām not relying on it for when I retire.
I just consider it a tax that Iām not receiving any benefit for. A small price to pay to this wonderful country that took in my ancestors with open arms when they had nowhere else to turn.
With that being said- it is a free country and I have the privilege of voting for representatives who I feel will do a better job with the taxes that I pay.
You’re missing a critical word- “there arenāt enough COMPETENT shadchanim”. Increasing the number of untrained shadchanim will just exacerbate the situation. Increasing the number of competent shadchanim while getting rid of the ones who shouldn’t be in the business in the first place would be a great start to solving the crisis. (Although there are many, many other factors that will need to be addressed.)
You can count me and my wife as a shidduch that was made by a family or friend- we were the only successful shidduch she ever made. After a suffering a horrific incident at the hands of a cruel “professional” shadchan I decided that under no circumstances would I ever use a “professional” shadchan again. Guess what- a family friend who was being pushed out of the way by the ruthless shadchanim was finally able to set me up with my wife and the rest is history.
I’m all for people relying on friends and family to set people up and a permanent ban on professional shadchanim. There’s a difference between a friend or family member who dabbles in shidduchim verses a shadchan whose only training and experience is that they “dabble” in shidduchim (i.e. the arrogance and lack of basic decency that comes along with being a āprofessionalā shadchan).
Against my better judgement I’ll explain where that came from.
In post #2366867 you wrote that “Itās still not a Ponzi scheme, even if itās not going to last” but didn’t explain why.
In post #2367605 I gave the parable of a band-aid verses a bandage and asked if you feel the same way about Social Security? Even though it looks like a Ponzi Scheme, functions like a Ponzi Schem and is destined to collapse like a Ponzi Scheme it isnāt a Ponzi Scheme because itās legal and transparent?
I thought it was a simple question- do you agree that it’s like a Ponzi Scheme (i.e. current payments pay prior liabilities and current liabilities will hopefully be paid by future payments) but technically isn’t one because Social Security is legal?
In post #2367699, instead of answering my question you asked what wasn’t clear. And then in post #2367703 you mentioned some more reasons why it’s technically not a Ponzi Scheme but still didn’t answer my question.
So, in post #2368218 I left a pretty simple multiple-choice question which your response in post #2368385 seemed to imply to me that you weren’t interested in having an intelligent conversation.
You’re correct that a shadchan is a type of broker. Some brokers are part of a profession and some aren’t. Making shadchanus into a profession is way past due. There needs to be a code of ethics that they need to follow or just some basic decency.
You call a travel agent and if they find something for you- great! If not, hang up the phone and call a different one. They wouldn’t dare call your Rov, Rebbe, neighbor or dog walker (or all of the above plus people you previously dated) to say that they found you a great flight but you don’t want it and they don’t agree with your reasoning so please pressure them into reconsidering before they need to resort to something more extreme.
Shadchanim don’t work that way. Shadchanim have way too much power and information (that they use and abuse) to not have a discipline process in place. They will make your life miserable until they get their way. There needs to be some training, oversight, responsibility and a discipline process that can fine, suspend or permanently ban them.
Here’s where we disagree:
Social Security does rely on current taxes to make current payments- this is exactly how it follows a Ponzi Scheme. Had the Social Security taxes been put towards an annuity for the tax payer- then current payments wouldn’t be paid out by current taxes, it would be paid out by the payments that were previously made (and hopefully invested responsibly).
(But then early recipients wouldn’t have been able to collect hundreds of times the amount they put in.)
I’m saving towards retirement with the expectation of not getting anything from Social Security, if I do end up getting something it’ll be a bonus. I don’t like that they keep raising the wage base so much every year. (But as a friend pointed out- it doesn’t make a difference because we’re not going to get what we’re owed anyway.)
It doesn’t really make much of a difference now what the life expectancy is- check what it was back when Social Security was enacted and see how many more yearās early recipients received payments than was originally expected.
You asked how are we sure that the next generation will respect us and pay taxes to support us? If I was given a choice to forgo any payments from Social Security and in turn my kids won’t have to pay into the system, I’d do it in a second.
I was trying to have a normal conversation with you. I don’t have the patience to deal with someone who can’t give a coherent answer to a simple multiple choice question.
I probably won’t respond to further posts from you on this thread.
Sorry
As with any huge issue out there, there’s usually way more than just one factor causing the issue and fixing one factor may help but won’t resolve the issue.
Here’s a good one to start with though- How about making Shadchanus into a profession?
Hashem created everyone and created someone meant to be their zivug- if they’re not introduced to each other (or possibly under the wrong circumstances) there’s a good chance they won’t end up marrying.
There are certain characteristics that define a profession (here’s a partial list):
The professional undergoes training,
There’s continuing education,
There’s certification,
There’s ethical standards that need to be followed,
There’s oversight and
There’s a discipline process.Would you trust someone who’s a doctor solely because they “dabble” in healthcare?
Would you trust someone who’s a mechanic solely because he “dabbles” in auto repairs?So why would you trust someone who’s a shadchan solely because they “dabble” in shidduchim?
Furthermore- without oversight and the thought of being banned, fined or face any disciplinary action- what encourages them to act in good faith?
@always_ask_questions and @daas-yochid
I’m not questioning the legalities of Social Security, I’m not a lawyer and don’t have an opinion of the legalities one way or the other.
What I wrote earlier on is that Social Security is designed like a Ponzi Scheme and is destined to fail like all Ponzi Schemes eventually do. (Regardless of whether it’s technically (or legally) a Ponzi Scheme or not.) It may last longer than other Ponzi Schemes do but if early contributors already got payments equal to many times more than they contributed- then there’s going to be a time where the payments coming in aren’t enough to make the payments promised to later contributors. It’s being exacerbated now when people are living longer, having less kids and many of the younger generation are never entering the workforce altogether and therefore not contributing to the fund.
You asked what was unclear- I’m trying to get an answer from you as to why you feel that Social Security isn’t a Ponzi Scheme. Can you pick from one of the choices below? (For context I would choose B.)
A. Social Security doesn’t rely on future contributions to make payments for past contributors,
B. Social Security is legal while Ponzi Schemes are illegal,
C. Both
D. None of the above (please explain)
I respectfully disagree with many of your “facts”. Before discussing them individually- would you mind answering the multiple-choice question I posed to @daas-yochid?
I try to respond to everyone who comments on what I write. To make it easier for me would you be able to explain why Social Security is not a Ponzi Scheme?
If someone is wearing a CVS branded bandage theyāre technically not wearing a Band-aid. So, even though it looks like a Band-aid, feels like a Band-aid and works like a Band-aid, itās still not a Band-aid.
Do you feel the same way about Social Security? Even though it looks like a Ponzi Scheme, functions like a Ponzi Schem and is destined to collapse like a Ponzi Scheme it isnāt a Ponzi Scheme because itās legal and transparent?
Iām trying to figure out where the disconnect is.
Are you opining that Social Security isnāt legally a Ponzi Scheme or isnāt mathematically a Ponzi Scheme (or it isnāt either)?
Government mandated or not- if the funds coming in are not enough to payout the funds due the entire system will collapse.
The shortfall is projected to be in the trillions of Dollars. Where is the government going to get this money from?
The fact that a US Citizen can renounce their citizenship is enough proof that the US doesnāt own its citizens. There needs to be some sort of cutoff to know when one is no longer a citizen. Would you like taxes to be like gym membership where once one no longer pays theyāre no longer members and no longer entitled to the benefits of membership? And yes, it would be ātheftā to continue using the gym (or any benefit associated with membership) after membership has been revoked.
Iām a member of ××× ×ש×Ø××, this is a different type of membership as thereās no way to renounce my membership. BāH when the ×××Ŗ ××ק×ש is rebuilt and ××Ŗ× ××× ×× are established- Iām going to be under their jurisdiction and thereās nothing I can do about it. In this case Iām owned by the religion.
On the other hand- I have professional memberships- I met the requirements, applied for membership and pay my dues (which includes a fee for a disciplinary process if anyone files a complaint against me). Iām not owned by these organizations but there are benefits to being a member (e.g. I can use their professional designations after my signature). Even if I stop paying membership Iām still bound by their rules until I officially resign and can face their disciplinary process and have my name listed as not being in good standing.
Iām not sure what youāre getting at with socialized healthcare but if given the option to opt out socialized healthcare a 911 operator would first have to place someone on hold to see if they paid the socialized tax.
You asked who mentioned Ponzi scheme?
If A = B and C = B, would you say that C = A?
Now-
Let A = Ponzi Scheme,
Let B = A fund that people contribute money towards and instead of the money being invested itās used to payout people who contributed money earlier on, and
Let C = Social Security.
Do you agree now that Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme?
If you want to be technical you could say that mathematically itās a Ponzi Scheme but legally itās not because (1) a Ponzi Scheme is illegal and Social Security is legal and (2) a Ponzi Scheme isnāt transparent where the money goes but Social Security is transparent for who ever cares to read up about it. But you get the point.
Based on your post Iām having a hard time understanding why Warren Buffet believes that Social Security isnāt a Ponzi Scheme. Would you be able to explain what a Ponzi Scheme is, how Social Security works and contrast the two?
(Isnāt a Ponzi Scheme where people put in money and instead of it being invested itās used to pay back people who put in money earlier and the people putting in money now hope to get back money at a future date from people who will put in money at a future date?)
I fully agree with you though that people shouldnāt be able to pick and choose which taxes they want to contribute towards.
Imagine the following:
911- 911, whatās your emergency?
Caller- thereās a fire in my house,
911- let me put you on hold while I check if you paid your fire fighting taxesā¦
Social Security didn’t have to be a Ponzi Scheme but it’s too late- that’s how it was set up and there’s nothing that can be done about it now.
See the case of Ida May Fuller- the first Social Security recipient- she barely paid into Social Security and collected it for over 35 years- receiving close to 1,000 times what she contributed. I highly doubt that I’m even going to get back even close to what I (and my employers) contributed. The funds that she collected were paid into Social Security by the next generation and their checks are being covered by our parents and us.
I spoke with a retirement actuary at length about Social Security and why it was purposely designed as a Ponzi Scheme and not as an annuity- like your typical insurance company would do it.
With a typical 401(K) a person sets aside funds (and at times their employer matches it to some extent) and at retirement they can either live off the lump sum or purchase an annuity and ensure that they don’t outlive their money. Of course the government is extremely on top of the employers issuing matches, the banks holding the 401(K)s and the insurance companies selling the annuities.
The amounts held in the portfolios of some of these banks and insurance companies is staggering.
The designers of Social Security were concerned with the government having access to retirement accounts- worth potentially in the trillions- and no oversight, so they designed Social Security in a way where there isn’t tons of money sitting around but payments come in from the current generation to pay the previous generation, i.e. a massive Ponzi Scheme. While Social Security does have lots of money at the moment- it’s nothing compared to the trillions they’d be sitting on otherwise.
As with any Ponzi Scheme, it’s going to fail sooner or later. From what I understand, the designers of Social Security anticipated that for each retiree there would be 16 people working and making Social Security payments. With people living longer, having less kids and with so many people choosing not to work- the ultimate demise is bound to happen sooner rather than later. But- it was going to happen eventually anyway.
Are you mixing me up with someone else?
Who’s being held up and gunpoint and being forced to pay taxes. I’ve said numerous times in this thread that anyone who feels that the taxes are too high for the benefits of being a US Citizen is allowed to leave and renounce their citizenship.
The US isn’t a communist country and the US doesn’t own its citizens. Unless you’re in jain (and probably not paying taxes anyway) you’re free to leave. I have never written anything contrary to that.
It’s gotta be hard trying to have a conversation with someone and having to wait a week for a response- I apologize for that.
Taxes are an unfortunate part of life. We both seem to agree that taxes in the US are unsustainable for many families. The problem though, is that many families would be better off if taxes were even higher (i.e. the ones not paying any taxes and living off of our taxes). Thereās no general consensus on whatās too high and what isnāt.
I don’t think the government should be allowed to levy crippling taxes on anyone, but “crippling” is rather subjective. Who would be the one to decide what’s crippling and what isn’t?
There is a vehicle to lower taxes and make them more affordable- it’s your ability to go out and vote. Not paying taxes is taking matters into your own hands and things could get out of control if people could suddenly decide that taxes are too high and stop paying them.
And yes, I know we agreed to disagree on this but, in my opinion, an individual who cheats on his taxes because he feels they’re too high is stealing.
You seem to be a nice person and kept our differences respectful- thanks for that.
I also never heard of the term ālegally lieā before and after. He explained that basically I wasn’t signing that everything was true- I was signing that if something isn’t true, they have the right to sue me. That raised a red flag. Another red flag was that I needed to pay in cash and not get a receipt so that there’s no trail. I wasn’t comfortable with the whole thing.
I think what we don’t agree on boils down to whether or not the government has the right to charge “unfair” taxes and not if someone is allowed to cheat on taxes if they feel that it’s not fair. We probably both agree that there’s enormous amounts of waste in the taxes being collected.
I’m trying very hard to stay out of politics but I will say that, in my opinion, the taxes being charged nowadays are exorbitant and unfair to many families. I will also say though that for some people it’s working and would work better if the government would raise taxes.
I also think we disagree on whether it’s fair or not to tell someone who doesn’t like the tax rates to either vote out the politicians (you probably agree with me on that one) or leave the country and renounce citizenship.
I don’t think it’s possible to save Social Security – at least not in a way that would give everyone 100% of what they should be getting. It’s a shame because I see how my 401(k)s are growing and the amount paid towards Social Security (between me and my employers) is significantly higher than what my employers and I set aside towards retirement.
People are retiring at a younger age nowadays and there aren’t enough people working vs the amount of people getting Social Security. Had the government funneled the funds towards an annuity with an insurance company- I think we’d all be in a better position.
Itās been great talking to you on this topic.
I stand firm that taxes will never ever be fair to everyone and that cheating on your taxes is wrong and stealing. (Even if you justify it by ātheyāre not fairā.)
If another country invaded yours and started charging an exorbitant tax rate Iād be OK with overthrowing the invading country but Iād still feel that itās stealing to sit back and enjoy the benefits of the new government and cheat on your taxes.
Like I wrote many times before and Iāll write one last time- if you donāt think the taxes here are fair, youāre free to leave the country and renounce your citizenship.
I donāt think Iām going to convince you otherwise and youāre definitely not going to convince me otherwise.
At this point I think weāre just going to have to agree to disagree.
Best of luck
Taxes are what they are and part of the reason they are what they are is because of tax fraud. (It may be a small amount compared to the waste caused by crooked politicians but it definitely contributes.) You may not be promoting tax cheats it but you sure seem to be justifying them. Like I wrote before, if you feel that politicians are stealing from you, you have the right to vote against them.
There is no way to create a tax system that is fair to everyone. What people are trumpeting as fair share will definitely not be fair to many families. Are you ok with anyone cheating on their taxes when they feel itās not fair for them? Did the founding fathers write that anyone who feels that taxes arenāt fair for them have the right to cheat on their taxes?
If someone feels that Yeshiva Tuition is too high for them (or they donāt like the way the Yeshiva spends itās money) and the scholarship given to them by the school isnāt enough- do they have the right to lie about their income on the scholarship application?
(As a side point- I was told by a lawyer many years ago about how I could legally lie to save myself hundreds of Dollars per month. He said that the law in the case is that lying isnāt illegal but it gives them the right to sue me for all ill gotten gains but theyāre too lazy to do anything about it. I asked a shaila and was told that irregardless of US Law itās ××”××Ø ××××× as itās stealing from all stakeholders and Iād have to repay every single one of them.)
I agree with you that raising taxes to an astronomical amount is an abuse of power but I donāt agree with you that something canāt be done ābecause itās an abuse of power. Iām not getting into politics but there have been some things done recently that just about everyone agrees were an abuse of power – but they were done.
Iād feel differently if a country considered you their property and didnāt let you leave or wonāt let you give up your citizenship but thatās definitely not the case with the US. Youāre free to leave and renounce your citizenship.
By the way- I did respond to your question about ā illegal activitiesā against the British king- I told you that you can fight for your independence.
You, on the other hand, didnāt respond to my question. Iām going to ask it again.
Would you say itās ok to steal from a grocery store that donates a percentage of purchases to something you abhor?
Iām definitely not happy with the tax rate and where lots of the tax money is going but why are you saying that the government has no right to do that?
Yes, in my opinion it is stealing. They can tax any amount that they want and if you want to be a citizen (or resident) you have to pay that. If you don’t want to pay taxes you’re welcome to leave and give up your citizenship or vote out the current politicians. But until then, if you’re a US Citizen and getting the benefits of citizenship you’re stealing if you cheat on your taxes.
Like I keep writing- the US has benefits for its citizens all over the world. Expecting to get those benefits (or even just being covered by those benefits) while cheating on your taxes is stealing. If you have a problem with the taxes, you have the option to leave and renounce your citizenship or vote out the politicians collecting taxes you don’t agree with to pay for things that you don’t want them to spend money on. (You can also fight for your independence.)
My point though, and I’ll write it again, is that expecting to get the benefits from the US Government while not contributing what they tell you you owe- is stealing.
I agree with you 100% that the government is wasting ridiculous amounts of money but that doesn’t give you the right to steal. Would you say it’s ok to steal from a grocery store that donates a percentage of purchases to something you abhor? Hopefully not. You have the right to either pay for your groceries (knowing where some of the profits are going) or shopping elsewhere. Same with citizenship.
But I disagree with you that someone stealing from the government can’t be judged. (And by the way- there will NEVER be a tax code written that is fair to everyone.)
I wrote earlier that there are benefits to being a US Citizen. The US Government is supposed to look after their citizens all over the world. This is an exposure for the government and it is an expense- regardless of whether you ever use it or not. Expecting the government to be there for you while cheating on your taxes (regardless of if you’re in the country or not) is stealing. I believe stealing isn’t covered by the Halacha of dina demalchusa dina.
(I’d feel differently if the US had, for example, a rule that its citizens can’t drink alcohol no matter where in the world they are and you decided to drink alcohol out the country where the host country has no rule against it.)
I sympathize with those that are struggling to make ends meet but not paying taxes that are due is simply stealing. Signing your name to something that isnāt true is simply lying.
Like I wrote earlier- if someone doesnāt want to pay US taxes theyāre more than welcome to renounce their citizenship and give up on all the benefits that come along with being a US Citizen.
It makes no difference if you agree with the policies of the US Government or how they spend the money they collect in taxes. If it bothers you go ahead and vote for someone whose policies are in line with your values.
(I was ×ק×× on myself this past ×Ø×ש ××©× × to not post anything political so Iām not agreeing or disagreeing with your last sentences.)
Iām not a Rov or an accountant so this isnāt halachic or professional advice- just my personal opinion.
Signing your name to something that you know isnāt true, even if thereās no way youāre going to be caught is just wrong, plane and simple- thereās no two ways about it.
Being a citizen of a country entitles one to certain privileges and protections which ultimately costs the country money. While you may feel that paying taxes for the same income to the Israeli Government and then to the US Government is double paying- the respective governments look at us as their share of the costs to look out for their citizens.
Who decides whatās fair and unfair?
If your clients in Israel donāt feel like paying US income taxes, why donāt they just denounce their citizenship?
@g08b couldnt have said it better myself
But to quote the end of the first ××©× × in ××××
×× ××, ××× ××××Ø ×”×ףדā
Should we make all 18 wheelers have a āco-pilotā like the Staten Island Ferry? Is an incapacitated driver of an out of control big rig less dangerous than an incapacitated ferry captain?
Should we make every vehicle on the road go through a D Check every six years like a 747 needs to? Is hidden corrosion on a car any less dangerous than hidden corrosion on an airliner? (And while weāre at it- if we required the same annual recurring training for drivers that are required of commercial airline pilots- many of the unsafe drivers would be removed.)
Should we make every residential house and apartment have an emergency exit in every room? Is a fire in a bedroom blocking the lone doorway any less dangerous than a fire in a classroom?
The answer is that in life, for the most part, everything is a balance and a price tag needs to be put on everything (unfortunately, this includes peopleās lives). Obviously the government feels that itās not cost efficient for the amount it would cost compared to the amount it would save.
(@ commonsaychel – your post had me cracking up- thanks! Sorry for stealing your sense of humor.)
Raising kids is different for every family and it’s a careful balance based on each family’s unique parameters. I respect your approach but we do things differently.
There’s no limit to what I’d spend to ensure that my kids have the best education and I don’t consider this a luxury that my kids are going to turn into a necessity.
I don’t discuss tuition with my kids for the most part (when they turn 18 and I have no access to their college accounts I need them to hand me the statements so I can pay them). I would also never discuss with my kids that I felt a school wasn’t acting reasonable with pricing (except possibly a college). B”H I never felt that my kids could be getting a better education elsewhere. There were a few times that I felt the schools could’ve handled things differently but at the end of the day- if I discussed it with them and they didn’t agree- it’s their school and I had to respect their decisions.
As far as making new friends is concerned- I wasn’t talking about neighbors who wouldn’t talk to you because you switched your kids out of one school- of course you probably shouldn’t have been friends with them to begin with. I was referring to your kids not being able to easily stay friends with the kids they used to be with in class and on the bus. It can be hard coming into a new school knowing very few kids and having to make new friends when most of the kids already have their groups of friends.
@eddie
I agree with your earlier post but to a very limited degree. There is an initial sunk cost in opening a school and every additional student taken in adds a small variable expense. But- when the school needs to add a parallel class, all of the sudden you need an additional classroom and teachers- the cost is going to jump significantly. If a school has 250 students from Kindergarten to 8th grade thatās about 25 kids give or take per grade and one class per grade. Once the number is hovering around 1,000 the school needs 3 to 4 classes per grade and a much larger building than the schools you dealt with. This all costs lots of more money than just the differential of adding one more student a few hundred times.
Iām not sure why youāre having a hard time believing that a far right school, where the Rabbeim and teachers are paid far less than their counterparts in public schools, and without the same bloated budgets as public schools, can educate kids for a fraction of what public schools do. The general cost in the US per public school kid is hovering around $20,000.
The figures I got were from the CPA that audited the schools books on behalf of the bank that they applied for a loan from. He claimed that full tuition covers each kid plus an extra percentage for those who donāt pay full tuition. Thereās still a shortfall thatās closed with fundraising.
If everyone paid full tuition (which I know is never going to happen) there would be no need for the extra percentage or fundraising. That scholarship that youāre getting is taking away from those paying that extra percentage. Furthermore- if everyone paid full tuition and the school did fundraising as well- that would lower the cost of full tuition for everyone and leave more money in the pockets of those paying full tuition.
Iām not a CPA but Iām under the impression that the extra percentage isnāt tax-deductible as itās listed as tuition. If the school listed tuition and a mandatory donation- that donation would be considered tax-deductible. Schools hesitate to do that as they feel that parents may put up a fight.
(One school had a mandatory amount that each family had to fundraise for the school. As we never complied it was added to our next yearās tuition balance and weād get a tax-deductible receipt for that amount.)
Why donāt they have the option of executing terrorists who arenāt in uniform? Theyāre not protected under the Geneva Convention.